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So it's the 12th of July tomorrow. Will the North ever not be sectarian?

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    #632
    red ears
    Closed Accounts Posts: 945 ✭✭✭red ears


    Coffee Fulled Runner wrote: »
    I was up in the north the past few days and noticed it was just loyalists/unionists flegs on display. From urban working class areas to big rural farm land. I don't think I spotted one tri colour, I was in both traditionally nationalist and unionists areas. Why do the loyalist community still display flegs? Is it because it's marching season or does this go on all year round?

    Insecurity about their plastic Brit status.


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    #633
    holyhead
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,249 ✭✭✭holyhead


    I think their insecurity stems from being on an island which is majority Catholic. They know full well that the UK doesn't give a toss about them. Their level of Union Jack displaying is probably unparalleled across the UK. Most people on the mainland don't know too much about Northern Ireland and in all reality don't care. The North is just an economic drain on the UK.


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    #634
    Ludwig Heinrich Edler
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 20 ✭Ludwig Heinrich Edler


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    What will it take to stop all this sectarianism?

    Peace tends to follow war, at least until the lessons are forgotten by later generations. The troubles were not really a full blown war so the peace dividend may not be as lasting as it was following WWII for example. Also, truth tends to get corrupted by twisted interpretations of what happened so people often go to war with each other because both sides want peace and they think the opposing side is the aggressor.

    I know in our secular society, many people do not believe in Satan like I do, but perhaps belief in Satan would be a useful way of securing world peace. Believing there is an evil which tries to turn nation against nation could unite peoples against this common enemy.

    The USA was once a God fearing country and Russia was against all religion. Nowadays, that situation is somewhat reversed. Both sides hated each other then and also now, they have just exchanged reasons. The Devil must be really enjoying this.


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    #635
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 68,162 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Ludwig Heinrich Edler wrote: »
    Peace tends to follow war until the lessons are forgotten by later generations. The troubles were not really a full blown war so the peace dividend may not be as lasting as it was following WWII for example. Also truth tends to get corrupted by twisted interpretations of what happened so people often go to war with each other because both sides want peace and they think the opposing side is the aggressor.

    I know in our secular society, many people do not believe in Satan like I do but perhaps belief in Satan would be useful in securing world peace. Believing there is an evil which tries to turn nation against nation could unite peoples against this common enemy.

    Is it a protestant or catholic Satan? :)

    In fairness, more people have died in the so called war on Satan than anything else.
    It is the belief that you are gods chosen that is a major part of the problem with the religiously fundamentalist unionist.


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    #636
    Ludwig Heinrich Edler
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 20 ✭Ludwig Heinrich Edler


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Is it a protestant or catholic Satan? :)

    In fairness, more people have died in the so called war on Satan than anything else.
    It is the belief that you are gods chosen that is a major part of the problem with the religiously fundamentalist unionist.
    Yes but when you point the finger at the other guy you are doing precisely what Satan wants. It is very difficult to be constantly mindful of this. I have come to the conclusion that the solution requires the separation of good and evil. Certain religions e.g. Zoroastrianism is very strong on this point. I think that is also the origin of requiring things to be Kosher in the Jewish religion.

    When you separate good and evil, you find the good guys and the bad guys on both sides of the divide. There are are a lot of good and bad people in every nation including those at war with each other.


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    #637
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 68,162 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Ludwig Heinrich Edler wrote: »
    Yes but when you point the finger at the other guy you are doing precisely what Satan wants. It is very difficult to be constantly mindful of this. I have come to the conclusion that the sollution requires the separation of good and evil. Certain religions e.g. Zoroastrianism is very strong on this point. I think that is also the origin of requiring things to be Kosher in the Jewish religion.
    But I think religious fundamentalism is evil, in that requires perfectly ordinary people to exist without their rights.


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    #638
    Ludwig Heinrich Edler
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 20 ✭Ludwig Heinrich Edler


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    But I think religious fundamentalism is evil, in that requires perfectly ordinary people to exist without their rights.
    Religious fundamentalism is a bit broad. In the case of Christianity, it involves doing a lot of things that are good e.g. thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, blessed are the peacemakers, blessed are the merciful etc. But, religious fundamentalism has also been know to contain evil as you say.

    Separating the good from the evil in religious fundamentalism is important, so that the good can be kept and the evil rejected. I believe Satan likes to mix things up and cause confusion.


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    #639
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 68,162 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Ludwig Heinrich Edler wrote: »
    Religious fundamentalism is a bit broad. In the case of Christianity, it involves doing a lot of things that are good e.g. thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, blessed are the peacemakers, blessed are the merciful etc. But, religious fundamentalism has also been know to contain evil as you say.

    Separating the good from the evil in religious fundamentalism is important, so that the good can be kept and the evil rejected. Satan likes to mix things up and cause confusion.

    The way I see or separte this version of religious fundamentalism is that it believe:
    Thou shalt not kill certain people.
    Thou shalt not steal unless it is something big, like heating grants and bungs for property deals etc.
    Blessed are the SDLP peacemakers but a plague on the house that reaches out again and again.
    Blessed are the merciful unless it is marching season, then any Taig is fair game.

    Religious fundamentalists everywhere make their own arbitrary rules in the name of their God.
    Forgive me for not buying your snakeoil.


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    #640
    Ludwig Heinrich Edler
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 20 ✭Ludwig Heinrich Edler


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    The way I see or separte this version of religious fundamentalism is that it believe:
    Thou shalt not kill certain people.
    Thou shalt not steal unless it is something big, like heating grants and bungs for property deals etc.
    Blessed are the SDLP peacemakers but a plague on the house that reaches out again and again.
    Blessed are the merciful unless it is marching season, then any Taig is fair game.

    Religious fundamentalists everywhere make their own arbitrary rules in the name of their God.
    Forgive me for not buying your snakeoil.
    In the case of heating grants for example, the people who steal them are doing evil and those who don`t are not. You cannot control what other people decide to do but you can always decide whether or not you are going to steal. Good or evil, its your choice. Separating the two gives clarity and that is important in the case of more ambiguous moral dilemmas which require careful considderation.


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    #641
    A Little Pony
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭A Little Pony


    You could remove religion tomorrow in Ulster and it wouldn't make much difference. Francie puts too much emphasis on it.


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    #642
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 68,162 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Ludwig Heinrich Edler wrote: »
    In the case of heating grants for example, the people who steal them are doing evil and those who don`t are not. You cannot control what other people decide to do but you can always decide whether or not you are going to steal. Good or evil, its your choice. Separating the two gives clarity and that is important in the case of more ambiguous moral dilemmas which require careful considderation.

    What about the people who make it possible to steal and then invoke God and righteousness in the pusuit of other stuff?

    It is all a smokescreen Ludwig, like religious fundamentalism the world over. It needs to be faced down and separated from the state like we in the south did with the RC version.


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    #643
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 68,162 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    You could remove religion tomorrow in Ulster and it wouldn't make much difference. Francie puts too much emphasis on it.

    What underpins the denial of rights to ordinary decent LGBT people then, if not religious fundamentalism?

    It is key to understanding how these people operate.


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    #644
    holyhead
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,249 ✭✭✭holyhead


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    You could remove religion tomorrow in Ulster and it wouldn't make much difference. Francie puts too much emphasis on it.

    I agree. It is more to do with historical allegiances than actual religion. It is naive to expect deep seated hatred to dissipate in twenty years. It is going to take generations. Northern Ireland as its currently constituted is a fudge to keep both sides together. Technically the Protestants are winning but they live in apparent fear of a united Ireland by virtue of being in the minority on the island. Catholics are the majority on the island but must live in a country whose ultimate paymaster is London.

    I have said it time and again. Arlene Foster is hopelessly out of her depth. However much I think she is pointless she is still First Minister in N.I. She fosters sectarianism by being a Protestant leader for the Protestant people of N.I. She has a glorious opportunity to forge a real union. A union between the people on both sides of the historical and if we must say so, religious divide.

    Martin McGuinness (r.i.p) had enough about him to respect his post of deputy first minister. He showed this respect by meeting her majesty Queen Elizabeth. It is time for Arlene Foster to tangibly recognise that she is leader of ALL the people of N.I.


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    #645
    A Little Pony
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭A Little Pony


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    A Little Pony wrote: »
    You could remove religion tomorrow in Ulster and it wouldn't make much difference. Francie puts too much emphasis on it.

    What underpins the denial of rights to ordinary decent LGBT people then, if not religious fundamentalism?

    It is key to understanding how these people operate.
    To piss off the 'taigs' obviously.


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    #646
    Ludwig Heinrich Edler
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 20 ✭Ludwig Heinrich Edler


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    You could remove religion tomorrow in Ulster and it wouldn't make much difference. Francie puts too much emphasis on it.
    Of course it would make a difference. Those who are hellbent on doing evil would continue to do it and those who a least attempt to obey the commandments and live a sin free life would no longer feel obliged to do so.

    Certainly there are psychopaths who hide behind religion to justify henious crimes but without religion the psychopath would still be a psychopath. And, to be fair, most religious genuinely try to be good people.


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    #647
    red ears
    Closed Accounts Posts: 945 ✭✭✭red ears


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    You could remove religion tomorrow in Ulster and it wouldn't make much difference. Francie puts too much emphasis on it.

    It's an ethnic issue, traditionally religion simply identified which side you were on as most of the British are Protestant and most of the Irish are Catholic.


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    #648
    bear1
    Registered Users Posts: 12,812 ✭✭✭✭bear1


    Don't know if this has been posted but this looks like it will be good:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBNY8rhng6E&spfreload=10

    Apparently there is a scene where she asks why the Irish flag is on top of the bonfire, only to be told that the Tricolour is the same as the ISIS flag.
    Shows the level of intelligence.


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    #649
    armaghlad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,660 ✭✭✭armaghlad


    bear1 wrote: »
    Don't know if this has been posted but this looks like it will be good:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBNY8rhng6E&spfreload=10

    Apparently there is a scene where she asks why the Irish flag is on top of the bonfire, only to be told that the Tricolour is the same as the ISIS flag.
    Shows the level of intelligence.
    This is available on BBC iPlayer already, I had to pause it several times to take a moment to try and comprehend what some of the Loyalists interviewed came out with.

    It's tragic the way these people seem to think, those interviewed anyway. They vote DUP solely for tribal reasons. They don't actually care for the conservative policies the DUP have re equal marriage rights and abortion law, what concerns them is the rise of Sinn Féin. So basically they vote en masse for a party that will do nothing for them so that a party from the other side won't hold power; and then wonder why they are constantly "left behind".

    The journalist in the documentary doesn't take long to pick up on the blatant sectarianism which defines Loyalist working class culture and hopefully provides the UK with an eye opener of what kind of people they're paying for in NI.


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    #650
    A Little Pony
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭A Little Pony


    The two first people are conservatives. The others more liberal socially.


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    #651
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 68,162 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    To piss off the 'taigs' obviously.

    Only 'taigs' are LGBT?

    Heard it all now.


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    #652
    Sunny Disposition
    Registered Users Posts: 2,761 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    Unionism is going to be lost if the leaders don't cop on in next ten years. Opposition to gay marriage is unpopular among average people and is likely to become more so. Talking about 'crocodiles' looking for an Irish language bill and supporting clearly dangerous bonfires is not going to help them win the middle ground and they don't have a sustainable demographic advantage any more. Somehow Unionism gets backed into supporting these flat earth policies and the leaders don't have the cop on to avoid making apes of themselves over and over and over.


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    #653
    A Little Pony
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭A Little Pony


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    A Little Pony wrote: »
    To piss off the 'taigs' obviously.

    Only 'taigs' are LGBT?

    Heard it all now.
    No. They do it for different reasons. Most Unionists don't care about this issue.


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    #654
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 68,162 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    No. They do it for different reasons. Most Unionists don't care about this issue.

    I am sure the LGBT unionists care very deeply about these issues.

    And a wee lesson for you here: you do not govern just to cater for what you care about. You govern for all.


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    #655
    A Little Pony
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭A Little Pony


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    A Little Pony wrote: »
    No. They do it for different reasons. Most Unionists don't care about this issue.

    I am sure the LGBT unionists care very deeply about these issues.

    And a wee lesson for you here: you do not govern just to cater for what you care about. You govern for all.
    Who wrote that rule?


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    #656
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 68,162 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    Who wrote that rule?

    Have a look at what 'democracy' means. You may need to sit down.


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    #657
    A Little Pony
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭A Little Pony


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    A Little Pony wrote: »
    Who wrote that rule?

    Have a look at what 'democracy' means. You may need to sit down.
    Democracy doesn't mean you have to please everyone all of the time or lay out policies for everyone. You govern by doing what you believe in. By that mere fact alone it means you won't be governing for everyone.


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    #658
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 68,162 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    Democracy doesn't mean you have to please everyone all of the time or lay out policies for everyone. You govern by doing what you believe in. By that mere fact alone it means you won't be governing for everyone.

    As I said...you clearly need to understand democracy.

    Denial of fundamental rights is not 'democracy'. Unionists have always confused democracy with autocracy. That is why the sectarian state they ran failed so cataclysmically.

    It will fail again unless they learn the lesson.


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    #659
    A Little Pony
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭A Little Pony


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    A Little Pony wrote: »
    Democracy doesn't mean you have to please everyone all of the time or lay out policies for everyone. You govern by doing what you believe in. By that mere fact alone it means you won't be governing for everyone.

    As I said...you clearly need to understand democracy.

    Denial of fundamental rights is not 'democracy'. Unionists have always confused democracy with autocracy. That is why the sectarian state they ran failed so cataclysmically.

    It will fail again unless they learn the lesson.
    The DUP are elected to do what they think is in the interests of the people who voted for them. We do not and won't have an executive again but that is for a different thread.


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    #660
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 68,162 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    The DUP are elected to do what they think is in the interests of the people who voted for them.

    So, back we go.

    Religious fundamentalists ordaining that everybody lives like them.


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    #661
    Chester Copperpot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭Chester Copperpot


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Only 'taigs' are LGBT?

    Heard it all now.

    Indeed and Ian Paisley Jr would definitely dispute that


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