Home heating automation

deezell · 06-01-2021 6:28pm

Did you just buy that for your own use? Nice gadget. Pricey though. Draughts are the enemy. If you don't have heat recovery ventilation, and a sealed house, you're always going to have icy aur in and warm air out. Dry lined inner walls, with the space behind the plasterboard fullly open to the outside due to unsealed vents, unclosed wallboard at the roof joists, under the internal windowboard, external pipes, electrical conduit, etc. I've detected freezing draughts whistling in through the pinholes of a wall socket. My other big gripe is 80's built double leaf block cavity walls, with the internal insulation boards just rattling around loose in between, not jointed and pressed to the inner wall surface. Out of sight, etc.
Post a few thermal pics of your gaff, be interesting to see.

chris_ie · 06-01-2021 6:35pm

deezell wrote: »

Did you just buy that for your own use? Nice gadget. Pricey though. Draughts are the enemy. If you don't have heat recovery ventilation, and a sealed house, you're always going to have icy aur in and warm air out. Dry lined inner walls, with the space behind the plasterboard fullly open to the outside due to unsealed vents, unclosed wallboard at the roof joists, under the internal windowboard, external pipes, electrical conduit, etc. I've detected freezing draughts whistling in through the pinholes of a wall socket. My other big gripe is 80's built double leaf block cavity walls, with the internal insulation boards just rattling around loose in between, not jointed and pressed to the inner wall surface. Out of sight, etc.
Post a few thermal pics of your gaff, be interesting to see.

Yeah bought for personal use. Our house is 2 storey with the "3rd" floor attic converted. Was built 2007 and we bought later. Knew there were issues with insulation but some parts we cant really see (the sloped parts in the attic room) They had kingspan on the sloped parts and wall of the attic rooms, and fiberglass between the joists. Gaps galore in places. The fiberglass doesnt even go up the the start of the attic walls so you can see under the attic floor from the attic space.

It was the parts we couldn't see I was curious about, and windows etc. So bit the bullet and bought the Flir. Great wee tool. I'll dig out some images and stick them up here.

chris_ie · 06-01-2021 6:52pm

Clicking images should take you to bigger image (although can pretty much see from thumbnail)

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Attic room, can see sloped part with no insulation.

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Bedroom window, cold even beside radiator..

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Sunroom PVC door top corner, cold air.

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Utility room door, bottom. Cold air. (Poor seals)

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Bottom of that same door, from the outside

11C blowing out in 0 to -1C outside temp.

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Kitchen window, cold air.

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Bedroom ceiling, uninsulated part is under the attic room floor (blue), insulated part (yellow) is in the attic space.

championc · 06-01-2021 7:31pm

chris_ie wrote: »

Only notice this with the back boiler. Never checked on how quickly other radiators heat up though. Would there not be a risk of all radiators in the house getting slightly warm instead of at least the downstairs getting sufficiently warm from the back boiler if rebalancing? (Never read much on rebalancing as you can probably tell ) Is it something best left to a plumber?

I'm no plumber and will never claim to be. Yes, I a real DIYer

You should simply note all changes you make, and then the effect of each change. It's a pretty simple process and easy to log to number of quarter or half turns you make - allowing you to easily go back to where you started.

The idea is to restrict water through rads closest to the boiler, forcing water to rads further along the run. Any rads hopping are grabbing all the water and not allowing this water to reach other further away rads, meaning they only get like warm in many cases.

CrazyFather1 · 06-01-2021 8:12pm

chris_ie wrote: »

Yeah bought for personal use. Our house is 2 storey with the "3rd" floor attic converted. Was built 2007 and we bought later. Knew there were issues with insulation but some parts we cant really see (the sloped parts in the attic room) They had kingspan on the sloped parts and wall of the attic rooms, and fiberglass between the joists. Gaps galore in places. The fiberglass doesnt even go up the the start of the attic walls so you can see under the attic floor from the attic space.

It was the parts we couldn't see I was curious about, and windows etc. So bit the bullet and bought the Flir. Great wee tool. I'll dig out some images and stick them up here.

You could go around charging a few quid and doing in peoples houses :-)

chris_ie · 06-01-2021 9:01pm

CrazyFather1 wrote: »

You could go around charging a few quid and doing in peoples houses :-)

Could do

I’d actually looked to hire one a while back but could not find anywhere!

CrazyFather1 · 06-01-2021 9:27pm

chris_ie wrote: »

Could do I’d actually looked to hire one a while back but could not find anywhere!

I found this place: https://dromadhire.com/general-plant-tool-hire/survey/thermal-imaging-camera

90 quid for a day :-)
My brother would like to do so by the time we do all 4 houses it would be cheaper to buy

chris_ie · 06-01-2021 11:31pm

CrazyFather1 wrote: »

I found this place: https://dromadhire.com/general-plant-tool-hire/survey/thermal-imaging-camera

90 quid for a day :-)
My brother would like to do so by the time we do all 4 houses it would be cheaper to buy

Jees that’s steep! I know it’s a better imager than the one I have but still

CrazyFather1 · 07-01-2021 10:10am

deezell wrote: »

1. Retain eziprog for HW, install wired Tado stat in place if the manual one, turn eziprog CH to always on.
2. Get a Tado wireless starter kit with HW control. Replace the eziprog with Tado wireless ext kit receiver, install Tado stat wirelessly on the wall wherever you want, turn old stat up full, or remove and link the 2 wires inside.
3. Exactly as 2. but with a Drayton Wiser Kit 2, CH plus HW.

Im actually leaning toward the Drayton kit, just because it doesn't have the subscription.

But it is a throw up to be honest

CrazyFather1 · 07-01-2021 10:18am

chris_ie wrote: »

Jees that’s steep! I know it’s a better imager than the one I have but still

Once it shows heat loss then I doubt anyone would care how good the image is.....

deezell · 07-01-2021 10:38am

CrazyFather1 wrote: »

Im actually leaning toward the Drayton kit, just because it doesn't have the subscription.

But it is a throw up to be honest

Sub is optional on the Tado, it just enables geofencing and open window detection afaik.
Drayton Kit 2 is a throw up in more ways than one, it's receiver controller (HubR) should fit directly onto the existing eziprog 2 channel backplate assuming it's the standard type. Just a case of clipping it on, turning the old wall stat up full to effectively always on, and pairing the wireless wiser stat to the hub. If you have to wire in the drsyton backplate its pin for pin identical.

limnam · 07-01-2021 10:59am

chris_ie wrote: »

Sidenote, bought a FLIR One Pro LT and jesus theres more gaps in my insulation than I thought! Good and a bad thing... I have my wifes head wrecked these days chatting about insulation, cold spots, window seals, smart TRVs, etc.

I'm convinced we'll divorce over it she knows when it's coming now too around September she has to listen to it till March every year

That looks like a great job I might look at getting one

Fujitsu10 · 07-01-2021 4:33pm

Fujitsu10 wrote: »

I'm 99% sure the zone switches don't fire the boiler, it seems only the timer does this. I suspect the live side of the switches is coming from the timer output. I might be able to hard wire another stat from upstairs..... I'm initially planning to start with 4 TRV's, if this works out well, I can change the rest in time. In the meantime I can open both zone valves off the wireless stat. I have ordered the Tado system and the 4 TRV's, I'll let you know how it works out.
Thanks for your help.

Hi Deezell, I have checked the control arrangement of the heating system and I can now confirm that the time clock on it's own fires the boiler and heats the HW, the two switches control two motorised valves one for ground floor and the other for 1st floor. When I ordered the wireless thermostat I couldn't get the extension kit, and as a result I only have a single pole switch for both the HW and CH. I have been rattling my brain to figure out a way to connect these switches so as to allow me to be able to select HW (Only fire boiler) and/or CH (fire boiler and energise the valves). I believe that in order to be able to do this I need a separate contact on the CH switch to control the valves. Is it possible to get another unit that does this, or would my best solution be to get the CH switch to operate a double pole relay which I could install myself? Other than that the wireless stat is great and the installation was easy. I have Tado TRV's on order and expect them to arrive in the next week or so.

chris_ie · 07-01-2021 6:04pm

deezell wrote: »

A little odd alright. If the ch is divided into 2 zones by valves, it seems odd that the back boiler can heat them both without opening the valves, Unless the stove flow is tapped into one of the CH circuits directly, possibly both, but that would provide a path to both zones if either CH valve was opened. From the stove perspective, your sysyem sounds like the usual bodge. From the oil boiler perspective, you could proceed with a smart controller and two stats to take over the function of the single boiler timer and the zone valve switches.

Hi deezell, still trying to work out in my head how it would all pan out. So my current wall programmer for the oil would be replaced, by what? Would it be the HW control from this bit of kit (Link)? So would the two wall switch wires be wired into that device?

Then the thermostat would go where ever. If I was adding the Smart TRV's, is there much use with the thermostat? So say I had all radiators downstairs with TRV's and set to 20deg, the Thermostat set to 21deg, wouldn't this lead to a problem where the thermostat calls for heat but all radiators are closed? I would imagine that Tado is smart enough to prevent such a situation in its settings but just want to check. Do you need a thermostat for each zone/valve? Could the trvs not handle that?

Also, regarding the TRV's, they'd be put on all bedrooms, kitchen, sitting room. Whats the norm with regards to hallways, bathrooms/ensuites. How many radiators would need to be left open?

deezell · 07-01-2021 6:23pm

Fujitsu10 wrote: »

Hi Deezell, I have checked the control arrangement of the heating system and I can now confirm that the time clock on it's own fires the boiler and heats the HW, the two switches control two motorised valves one for ground floor and the other for 1st floor. When I ordered the wireless thermostat I couldn't get the extension kit, and as a result I only have a single pole switch for both the HW and CH. I have been rattling my brain to figure out a way to connect these switches so as to allow me to be able to select HW (Only fire boiler) and/or CH (fire boiler and energise the valves). I believe that in order to be able to do this I need a separate contact on the CH switch to control the valves. Is it possible to get another unit that does this, or would my best solution be to get the CH switch to operate a double pole relay which I could install myself? Other than that the wireless stat is great and the installation was easy. I have Tado TRV's on order and expect them to arrive in the next week or so.

First check your valves, and see if there are unused wires coming from the valve motorised actuators, in addition to the live and neutral which power the acuator. There should be an extra pair, usually grey and orange, which are connected to a microswitch which closes when the valve is powered open. If these switches are there, retain the old timer to power the HW, but disconnect it from the boiler Switched Live (SL) in. Connect the new Tado stat to supply live to operate the HW valve. Now wire the valve microswitches to fire the boiler, permanent live in on one pole of each, say, Grey, and switched live from the other poles, Orange, to the boiler SL in. This way either HW timing or Tado stat CH timing will fire the boiler, with each opening their valve independently.
If your motorised valve actuators have no microswitch, you can box up a pair of mains relays to combine the timer outputs as a single SL to the boiler, or you can buy replacement actuator heads with the microswitches built in, to create a proper S plan circuit, where the boiler only fires when a valve has physically opened, and operated its microswitch. Using just relays will fire the boiler even if a valve is stuck shut.

deezell · 07-01-2021 8:04pm

chris_ie wrote: »

Hi deezell, still trying to work out in my head how it would all pan out. So my current wall programmer for the oil would be replaced, by what? Would it be the HW control from this bit of kit (Link)? So would the two wall switch wires be wired into that device?

Then the thermostat would go where ever. If I was adding the Smart TRV's, is there much use with the thermostat? So say I had all radiators downstairs with TRV's and set to 20deg, the Thermostat set to 21deg, wouldn't this lead to a problem where the thermostat calls for heat but all radiators are closed? I would imagine that Tado is smart enough to prevent such a situation in its settings but just want to check. Do you need a thermostat for each zone/valve? Could the trvs not handle that?

Also, regarding the TRV's, they'd be put on all bedrooms, kitchen, sitting room. Whats the norm with regards to hallways, bathrooms/ensuites. How many radiators would need to be left open?

Yes, if you use the ext kit, you can wire the HW On rlay to fire the boiler, and the CH On relay to open both valves. You (or Tado Support) can configure the ext kit in graviity mode, wherby HW relay closes for either HW or CH timed event and fires the boiler, while the CH relay opens both CH valves. This would be the simplest method, without needing to wire the motorised valves own relays into the circuit. If you later fit a TRV in the same location as the stat, you can place them in the same 'room' and choose one or the other as the temperature measuring device for that room, avoiding conflicts

chris_ie · 08-01-2021 4:52pm

Anyone with the Tado system have issues with the temperature reading? i.e. reading 20° on the TRV but the room actually being 17° for example due to the TRV proximity to the radiator?

deezell · 08-01-2021 5:34pm

chris_ie wrote: »

Anyone with the Tado system have issues with the temperature reading? i.e. reading 20° on the TRV but the room actually being 17° for example due to the TRV proximity to the radiator?

Mine is very accurate. TRVs are designed to function close to the radiator, there may be external factors causing the localised high temperature. If the trv is behind curtains, or a sofa, or other obstructions, in a tight corner or under a table. If there is a lateral draught or air current past the rad towards the TRV. If the room is draughty, or poorly insulated, there may be a larger temperature differential in the room from the furthest point from the rad to the nearest.
Some things you can do;
Make sure the TRV is in clear view with no obstructions.
Try rotating the TRV head half a turn to reposition its sensors.
Use the offset setting in the app to compensate for small differences.
If the lockshield valve at the other end of the rad is a pin type (unlikely), swap the trv to that end.
Have a plumber fit a spigot extender to locate the TRV further from the rad body. (Messy, Not recommended)
Invest in an additional Tado sensor stat to use as the temperature measuring device, and install it in an optimum position in the room. Use the app to assign the measuring function for this TRV to the wall stat.

chris_ie · 08-01-2021 5:51pm

deezell wrote: »

Mine is very accurate. TRVs are designed to function close to the radiator, there may be external factors causing the localised high temperature. If the trv is behind curtains, or a sofa, or other obstructions, in a tight corner or under a table. If there is a lateral draught or air current past the rad towards the TRV. If the room is draughty, or poorly insulated, there may be a larger temperature differential in the room from the furthest point from the rad to the nearest.
Some things you can do;
Make sure the TRV is in clear view with no obstructions.
Try rotating the TRV head half a turn to reposition its sensors.
Use the offset setting in the app to compensate for small differences.
If the lockshield valve at the other end of the rad is a pin type (unlikely), swap the trv to that end.
Have a plumber fit a spigot extender to locate the TRV further from the rad body. (Messy, Not recommended)
Invest in an additional Tado sensor stat to use as the temperature measuring device, and install it in an optimum position in the room. Use the app to assign the measuring function for this TRV to the wall stat.

Cool, yeah I have one anyway that is stuck behind a sofa, but that would be the room that will have the thermostat, its open plan kitchen and sunroom, radiator in each so I'll likely have the one thermostat controlling those two maybe.

Do you have TRVs on all radiators in the house? (incl hallways, bathrooms etc) or how far did you go.

ongarite · 08-01-2021 5:56pm

Is your TRV horizontal or vertically mounted?
Lots of complaints like yours when it's mounted vertically as it's taking heat from radiator and giving false temperature.

chris_ie · 08-01-2021 6:16pm

ongarite wrote: »

Is your TRV horizontal or vertically mounted?
Lots of complaints like yours when it's mounted vertically as it's taking heat from radiator and giving false temperature.

Saw that too but seen a few people have quite a bit of success using an adapter in some situations : https://www.oventrop.com/en-IE/products/productgroups/article/1011450/

championc · 08-01-2021 10:49pm

chris_ie wrote: »

Cool, yeah I have one anyway that is stuck behind a sofa, but that would be the room that will have the thermostat, its open plan kitchen and sunroom, radiator in each so I'll likely have the one thermostat controlling those two maybe.

Do you have TRVs on all radiators in the house? (incl hallways, bathrooms etc) or how far did you go.

I have TRV's on Every Rad, so I have full control. I have a bypass bridge at the boiler.

I think I had to offset two of my rads, but only by one degree. I had a cheap Chinese digital display with a mini PT1000 type probe attached, which I sat on top of the TRV to verify

All 10 of mine are Vertical

deezell · 09-01-2021 2:20am

championc wrote: »

I have TRV's on Every Rad, so I have full control. I have a bypass bridge at the boiler.

I think I had to offset two of my rads, but only by one degree. I had a cheap Chinese digital display with a mini PT1000 type probe attached, which I sat on top of the TRV to verify

All 10 of mine are Vertical

Great to see familiar posters are all still vertical also, a day at a time with this Covid...

limnam · 09-01-2021 12:38pm

chris_ie wrote: »

Anyone with the Tado system have issues with the temperature reading? i.e. reading 20° on the TRV but the room actually being 17° for example due to the TRV proximity to the radiator?

Yeah, if you want to get the temp of the center of the room you can then adjust each TRV with the "offset"

killbillvol2 · 10-01-2021 12:29am

My heating system has very basic automation, Optimum Connect I think.

The app is pretty much useless except to turn the heating on and off - can't adjust thermostat etc. There's a wireless thermostat which I manually adjust and I have TRVs on all radiators. The system works very well at controlling the heating but I'd like more control remotely.

I see that Electric Ireland will install a Nest thermostat for €130. Is that my best option? (I already have a lot of Google stuff). TIA

deezell · 10-01-2021 9:31am

killbillvol2 wrote: »

My heating system has very basic automation, Optimum Connect I think.

The app is pretty much useless except to turn the heating on and off - can't adjust thermostat etc. There's a wireless thermostat which I manually adjust and I have TRVs on all radiators. The system works very well at controlling the heating but I'd like more control remotely.

I see that Electric Ireland will install a Nest thermostat for €130. Is that my best option? (I already have a lot of Google stuff). TIA

Nest is a nice piece of kit. It does not have TRV option though. Borď gais are doing a free Hive stat plus Echo dot offer, you can add hive TRVs later.
https://www.bordgaisenergy.ie/campaigns/bord-gais-energy-bundle?gclsrc=aw.ds&&gclid=Cj0KCQiA6Or_BRC_ARIsAPzuer9wRQ2JJW0AbqgXupi8utWYohNlKvhviMUzLw3NVjWpm1vBjYmP7hAaAngZEALw_wcB

chris_ie · 10-01-2021 12:02pm

I was all set on getting the Nest too. Liked the look of the product and some of the features. However, I didn’t think that one or two thermostats would cover what I wanted to do. As deezell says, no TRVs with Nest and no hints of them doing them either as far as I can see. We have a few rooms that we don’t need heated very often but want to give them a low heat the odd time so the Tado system suits perfectly.

killbillvol2 · 10-01-2021 9:31pm

deezell wrote: »

Nest is a nice piece of kit. It does not have TRV option though. Borď gais are doing a free Hive stat plus Echo dot offer, you can add hive TRVs later.
https://www.bordgaisenergy.ie/campaigns/bord-gais-energy-bundle?gclsrc=aw.ds&&gclid=Cj0KCQiA6Or_BRC_ARIsAPzuer9wRQ2JJW0AbqgXupi8utWYohNlKvhviMUzLw3NVjWpm1vBjYmP7hAaAngZEALw_wcB

chris_ie wrote: »

I was all set on getting the Nest too. Liked the look of the product and some of the features. However, I didn’t think that one or two thermostats would cover what I wanted to do. As deezell says, no TRVs with Nest and no hints of them doing them either as far as I can see. We have a few rooms that we don’t need heated very often but want to give them a low heat the odd time so the Tado system suits perfectly.

Thanks.

It appears my TRVs are basic manual units so am I right in thinking that installing the Nest would make no difference to my existing setup except I'd have more control remotely (and the learning feature)?

And installing the Hive plus Hive TRVs would give me control down to individual rads if I needed it?

I'm stuck with Electric Ireland until August so if I was going with Hive I'd wait.

deezell · 10-01-2021 11:43pm

killbillvol2 wrote: »

Thanks.

It appears my TRVs are basic manual units so am I right in thinking that installing the Nest would make no difference to my existing setup except I'd have more control remotely (and the learning feature)?

And installing the Hive plus Hive TRVs would give me control down to individual rads if I needed it?

I'm stuck with Electric Ireland until August so if I was going with Hive I'd wait.

Will the deal still be there? You could just buy a smart stat now, wireless like Drayton or Hive, Or the Tado wired version, simple enough self install. Get the matching smart TRVs later as needed for rooms requiring tighter control.

killbillvol2 · 10-01-2021 11:48pm

deezell wrote: »

Will the deal still be there? You could just buy a smart stat now, wireless like Drayton or Hive, Or the Tado wired version, simple enough self install. Get the matching smart TRVs later as needed for rooms requiring tighter control.

More food for thought. I've been reading up on Tado today, definitely another option.

I'd be surprised if the deal wasn't there - seems those deals are almost permanent.

First world problems! Thanks for your help.

Home heating automation

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