Home heating automation

deezell

KingCong wrote: »

Good discounts on Drayton Wiser today as part of Amazon's Prime day, I'm thinking of getting it to replace my EPH R37-RF system. Is this difficult to self install? I have 2 heating zones and 1 HW zone all with the EPH wireless thermostats, including the HW tank which has no mechanical thermostat, wondering if this could still be used to cut the HW when it hits 60C? Believe I'd lose the ability to see the HW tank's temperature but I can live with that.

You'll just need to replace the baseplate and wire accordingly. The wiser receiver uses terminals 3,4 and 5, CH1, HW, CH2, for the three zones SL. The EPH uses 4, 6 and 8, usually as CH1, CH2 and HW. You should fit a mechanical stat wired into the HW zone, but you could retain the EPH just as a wireless HW stat receiver and controller. It would bug you slightly to have two systems, but it's not unusual to leave the HW on its old timer and just smarten up the zone stats.
In the end you'd probably prefer to have all three zones on one app, and you could flog the EPH kit on donedeal, it's worth a few quid.

THE ALM

bk wrote: »

I see that Hive now do smart TRV's

Anyone try them out yet?

I see that they are listed on the UK hive site, but not listed on the Irish site yet. I assume they would work here too.

BTW Anyone any opinions on Hive versus other options?

My sister is thinking of getting Hive as part of the Bordgais Energy deal for free. I don't see any major downsides to it. But I haven't looked at the smart thermostats much recently as I've been happily using Netatmo for the past few years.

Haven't tried them yet but keeping an eye to see if any deals come up for them.

Find Hive very good to be honest, running it for the heat and hot water without any issues to be honest, basically set and forget.

I also have some of there bulbs, plugs and sensors and all run without issue.

Good if you want to keep to one ecosystem. App works well and can set up different actions with the various sensors etc.

Also have cameras now so all bases are covered.

Originally got Hive from Amazon so don't see why the trv's won't work here.

limnam

bk wrote: »

I see that Hive now do smart TRV's

Anyone try them out yet?

I see that they are listed on the UK hive site, but not listed on the Irish site yet. I assume they would work here too.

BTW Anyone any opinions on Hive versus other options?

My sister is thinking of getting Hive as part of the Bordgais Energy deal for free. I don't see any major downsides to it. But I haven't looked at the smart thermostats much recently as I've been happily using Netatmo for the past few years.

Might be worth looking into Tado.

I've been very impressed with the features/battery life etc

But I've not used any others.

xl500

Honeywell Evohome also worth a look brilliant system

bk

xl500 wrote: »

Honeywell Evohome also worth a look brilliant system

Yes, that is definitely an interesting option.

Energia use to do those at a reduced cost. Their page now has no mention of Evhohome, I wonder are they still using Evohome for their multizoned setup?

limnam wrote: »

Might be worth looking into Tado.

I've been very impressed with the features/battery life etc

Yes, it seems like a very good system, but two issues:

- First my sister can get Hive for free, while Tado doesn't seem to be available from any suppliers here, so you'd have to pay for it upfront. Hive and Tado now seem to do smae thing, so I don't think it would be worth paying the extra for Tado.

- Tado introduced a €3 per month subscription for geofencing, that is a complete rip off for such basic features that come free with other thermostats.

I think Tado have shot themselves in the foot with this move.

Thanks for the suggestions everyone.

deezell

bk wrote: »

xl500 wrote: »

Honeywell Evohome also worth a look brilliant system

Yes, that is definitely an interesting option.

Energia use to do those at a reduced cost. Their page now has no mention of Evhohome, I wonder are they still using Evohome for their multizoned setup?

limnam wrote: »

Might be worth looking into Tado.

I've been very impressed with the features/battery life etc

Yes, it seems like a very good system, but two issues:

- First my sister can get Hive for free, while Tado doesn't seem to be available from any suppliers here, so you'd have to pay for it upfront. Hive and Tado now seem to do smae thing, so I don't think it would be worth paying the extra for Tado.

- Tado introduced a €3 per month subscription for geofencing, that is a complete rip off for such basic features that come free with other thermostats.

I think Tado have shot themselves in the foot with this move.

Thanks for the suggestions everyone.

Have to agree re Tado. The energy upgrade scheme is a cash cow for power utilities, they get generous credits for fitting customers homes with smart stats, based on energy savings that are not individually collated, but merely statistical estimates based on smart stat manufacturers claims. Tado need a partner here, but maybe the utility co. was asking too much discount. I don't understand why the powers that be can't have a simpler scheme based on self install and a receipted product. Mention grant and installers start at a grand.

Coley35

Hi, I'm not sure if I'm posting in the right place or not. I'm interested in the Nest thermostat. My house was built in 2004, oil boiler Grant 90/120, bungalow with underfloor heating for kitchen, utility & bathroom, and radiators in the other rooms. I have 3 manual timer switches, 1 for underfloor, 1 for radiators and 1 for hot water. I have 2 thermostats, 1 in the kitchen for the underfloor and 1 in main bedroom for the radiators. I got onto Electric Ireland about the Nest, she put me on hold to ask their Technican. Got back to me and said I definitely would need 2 new Nest thermostats but they still can't tell if it will work with my system until I place order and they come out to install. Would have to pay upfront and get a refund if it didn't suit. They have an offer online for €130 for 1 Nest thermostat installed but for the 2nd thermostat they would charge an extra €270! as the offer is only on the 1st one! So that would be €400 for 2. Sorry for long winded post, does this seem reasonable, would they suit my system? Any advice appreciated.

xl500

bk wrote: »

Yes, that is definitely an interesting option.

Energia use to do those at a reduced cost. Their page now has no mention of Evhohome, I wonder are they still using Evohome for their multizoned setup?



Yes, it seems like a very good system, but two issues:

- First my sister can get Hive for free, while Tado doesn't seem to be available from any suppliers here, so you'd have to pay for it upfront. Hive and Tado now seem to do smae thing, so I don't think it would be worth paying the extra for Tado.

- Tado introduced a €3 per month subscription for geofencing, that is a complete rip off for such basic features that come free with other thermostats.

I think Tado have shot themselves in the foot with this move.

Thanks for the suggestions everyone.

I have been using Evohome for the last 3 years never had one problem with it
It is a great system and can cater for almost any combination of Home Heating scenarios ie Dedicated UF Controller,Seperate Electric Zone Control which does not call Boiler I find this very convenient for Electric Underfloor Bathroom heating and also I have an Electric Heater in Main Bedroom these are Zones fully integrated into Evohome Screen ie can be controlled from app set schedules etc but they are Electric Zones so do not call Boiler when they are on this is a great feature and I do not know of any other system that supports this
Its like a lot of things its only when you use it you say thats great

One thing to note and this is common to all these systems the Smart TRVs can be noisy for Bedrooms

deezell

Coley35 wrote: »

Hi, I'm not sure if I'm posting in the right place or not. I'm interested in the Nest thermostat. My house was built in 2004, oil boiler Grant 90/120, bungalow with underfloor heating for kitchen, utility & bathroom, and radiators in the other rooms. I have 3 manual timer switches, 1 for underfloor, 1 for radiators and 1 for hot water. I have 2 thermostats, 1 in the kitchen for the underfloor and 1 in main bedroom for the radiators. I got onto Electric Ireland about the Nest, she put me on hold to ask their Technican. Got back to me and said I definitely would need 2 new Nest thermostats but they still can't tell if it will work with my system until I place order and they come out to install. Would have to pay upfront and get a refund if it didn't suit. They have an offer online for €130 for 1 Nest thermostat installed but for the 2nd thermostat they would charge an extra €270! as the offer is only on the 1st one! So that would be €400 for 2. Sorry for long winded post, does this seem reasonable, would they suit my system? Any advice appreciated.

€400 For two installed is good. There's a bit of work involved with nest, and with getting HW control connected, say compared to other smart stats which can be just popped on the wall in place of the old ones, installer in and out in an hour, depending on whether HW has its own valve and requires control.
You could buy the Drayton Kit 3, really simple install, about €216 On Amazon, just substitute receiver unit for the three timers. If you have to hire an installer, you could come in under €400, and if you get him to sign grant forms if he's approved, you'll be quids in in theory, but I've yet to read of anyone getting self purchased kit installed under the heating grants. It's usually a huge quote for kit and install, less the grant, leaving you having to pay 'only' what the job should cost anyway.

So on that basis, if only because the two nest kits are about €400-480 to buy yourself, and more finicky to install, €400 seems like a deal. If you want them wall installed and wired, you might have to press for this as they'll likely just want to install them wireless meaning sitting on a shelf or counter plugged into a mains adapter. They can be wired to the old stats wires but there's more involved at the receiver end, wires HAVE to be isolated from the mains and fed low voltage by the receiver, which is possibly extra work, and quite often very difficult due to the fact that both old stat wires may not return to the old timers.

Krombopulos Michael

Coley35 wrote: »

.....They have an offer online for €130 for 1 Nest thermostat installed but for the 2nd thermostat they would charge an extra €270! as the offer is only on the 1st one! So that would be €400 for 2. Sorry for long winded post, does this seem reasonable, would they suit my system? Any advice appreciated.

I did this offer and paid the 400 euro as advised. After the fact, I was told on boards here that you can do 2 separate online purchases for the nests and get both for 130 each installed.

deezell

Bummer! I think I read something about that before, but it must be a dodge using d'internet, Talk to them and it's one only. They're claiming unknown amounts back in credits using your install as statistical basis.

Coley35

Krombopulos Michael wrote: »

I did this offer and paid the 400 euro as advised. After the fact, I was told on boards here that you can do 2 separate online purchases for the nests and get both for 130 each installed.

Thanks for the reply. I'm not sure how that would work, would I have to 'Switch Provider' twice online?
What do you think of the Nest?

savemejebus

i think a few people ordered one online and then ordered one over the phone or got their spouse to, and then when the installer called to confirm the date said "btw, i've another order no. here, can you install that at the same time please".

Coley35

savemejebus wrote: »

i think a few people ordered one online and then ordered one over the phone or got their spouse to, and then when the installer called to confirm the date said "btw, i've another order no. here, can you install that at the same time please".

Ok, thanks. I might try that.

R.O.R

savemejebus wrote: »

i think a few people ordered one online and then ordered one over the phone or got their spouse to, and then when the installer called to confirm the date said "btw, i've another order no. here, can you install that at the same time please".

I switched to Electric Ireland and got the €130 Nest. Once the confirmation we were an Electric Ireland customer came through, I then ordered another Nest on line at the promotional rate for customers. Think it was €130 for the 2nd Nest, but I went with the Nest and Boiler service for €200 as the service was due and it usually costs us more than €70 with the local guy.

Appointment was booked for the 2nd install and boiler service before they contacted me about the first install, so mentioned I already had a booking and got it all done at once. Took 3-4 hours for it all to be done.

Coley35

R.O.R wrote: »

I switched to Electric Ireland and got the €130 Nest. Once the confirmation we were an Electric Ireland customer came through, I then ordered another Nest on line at the promotional rate for customers. Think it was €130 for the 2nd Nest, but I went with the Nest and Boiler service for €200 as the service was due and it usually costs us more than €70 with the local guy.

Appointment was booked for the 2nd install and boiler service before they contacted me about the first install, so mentioned I already had a booking and got it all done at once. Took 3-4 hours for it all to be done.

That's great, thanks for the info. I'll try it that way.

jarrieta

Ok, after a few years looking into this and lots of helpful advise (thanks deezell) I decided to ask for a quote to Eneergia (my current providers).

I need my cylinder replaced (as it a copper one not insulated at all), a motorised valve for the DHW and a thermostat for the cylinder, and a smart thermostat.

The quotation from them (it is house2home that are doing this) includes changing the control panel too, adding a summer motorised valve (not sure tbh what that was for, iirc it was to be able to heat the rads quicker in winter?) and 5 dumb TRVs (1 for each bedroom and 1 for the attic).

The smart system they install is EPH Ember (I remember discarding it as it is not way cheaper and not very smart, but tbh it would work for my basic use)

+1600 for the heating installation (motorised valves, Ember, TRVs)
+950 Insulated stainless steel cylinder
+50 to fix the attic rad that is connected to the hot water circuit (lol, this is sad)
2600 total
-750 SEAI grant
-550 Energia Energy Credit
- 350 Cylinder discount
Total to pay 910

The surveyor said that installing Nest was 350 quid more (I don't understand why this might be the case)

Any comments/suggestions? Thanks for all the help regarding this

bk

Eckk! Sounds like Energia have swapped from using Honeywell Evohome for the multizone heating setup to EPH Ember! That isn't a positive change IMO.

deezell

Yes. Dont let him Install Ember. He must have a carton of cheap ones. If he can't cope with Nest, (it might be the low voltage stat wiring that's throwing him), at least get something like Drayton Wiser. He'll recognise the receiver wiring as identical to the standard plate used in Ember. Stat is wireless and battery operated. Drayton kit2 is less expensive than ember (unless ember are being flogged off somewhere). Ember one CH and HW zone system is about €220, so the Nest is at most 40 more. Seems like he's adding in a time charge for setting up, which means he's not familiar with nest.

raytaxi

I had nest before upgrading boiler and now have a 3 zone system with ember. Ember is ok but hate that it only allows one temperature per day, easy to change remotely. But i far preferred nest as could set heat at different temperatures through out the day. ie morning upstairs at 20 degree's whilst everyone getting up and drop then till evening. No learning about how long house takes to heat with ember (believe ember have a smart stat in pipeline). Ember in my mind is more of a timer with remote access.

deezell

That is Exactly what it is.

deezell

Plus with Drayton, you'll be able to buy and install yourself some Drayton smart TRV heads that are compatible with the app.

matrim

raytaxi wrote: »

I had nest before upgrading boiler and now have a 3 zone system with ember. Ember is ok but hate that it only allows one temperature per day, easy to change remotely. But i far preferred nest as could set heat at different temperatures through out the day. ie morning upstairs at 20 degree's whilst everyone getting up and drop then till evening. No learning about how long house takes to heat with ember (believe ember have a smart stat in pipeline). Ember in my mind is more of a timer with remote access.

I've written a library to integrate with embers api and integrated it with home assistant. That's what I use to set different temps throughout the day.

It can also let me control it via Google home

raytaxi

I had a rasp pi running home assistant and could see temperature but don't know how to do the change of temp, and the sd card corrupted. Must try it again, what all would i need to do ?

So I have three zones. Upstairs, downstairs and hot water. Understand I’ll need two Nests. I have a thermostat upstairs, one in the hall and an electronic programmer in the kitchen beside the boiler. I assume the nests would replace the two thermostats on the walls. Would the programmer just be left as is? Would I just leave it with no schedules or constant on and the nests will do the rest?

deezell

MAXFANTANA wrote: »

So I have three zones. Upstairs, downstairs and hot water. Understand I’ll need two Nests. I have a thermostat upstairs, one in the hall and an electronic programmer in the kitchen beside the boiler. I assume the nests would replace the two thermostats on the walls. Would the programmer just be left as is? Would I just leave it with no schedules or constant on and the nests will do the rest?

Yes, you can leave all three zones on constant, but it would be easier to remove it and wire the two nest heatlink receivers in it's place. Cylinder HW thermostat, if you have one, goes in series with the live in to one of the nest heatlink HW relays. The Nests will connect wirelessly with their respective heatlink receivers, posithoned anywhere in their zone and powered by their mains adapters. Alternatively they can be fitted on the old stat positions, and the switched live mains wiring to the old stats can be fully isolated at both stat and old timer ends (Really important to isolate). This wire pair can then be used to power the Nests with low voltage from their heatlink receivers, and will also carry the digital control signals on the same pair.

ted1

jarrieta wrote: »

Ok, after a few years looking into this and lots of helpful advise (thanks deezell) I decided to ask for a quote to Eneergia (my current providers).

I need my cylinder replaced (as it a copper one not insulated at all), a motorised valve for the DHW and a thermostat for the cylinder, and a smart thermostat.

The quotation from them (it is house2home that are doing this) includes changing the control panel too, adding a summer motorised valve (not sure tbh what that was for, iirc it was to be able to heat the rads quicker in winter?) and 5 dumb TRVs (1 for each bedroom and 1 for the attic).

The smart system they install is EPH Ember (I remember discarding it as it is not way cheaper and not very smart, but tbh it would work for my basic use)

+1600 for the heating installation (motorised valves, Ember, TRVs)
+950 Insulated stainless steel cylinder
+50 to fix the attic rad that is connected to the hot water circuit (lol, this is sad)
2600 total
-750 SEAI grant
-550 Energia Energy Credit
- 350 Cylinder discount
Total to pay 910

The surveyor said that installing Nest was 350 quid more (I don't understand why this might be the case)

Any comments/suggestions? Thanks for all the help regarding this

What’s wrong with the attic rad? Any attic conversion I’ve seen has used electric roads as there heating pumps often struggle with the height and need upgrading.
Nest is probably 350 extra as they dint have a deal like electric Ireland, try getting electric Ireland to quite similar

jarrieta

deezell wrote: »

Yes. Dont let him Install Ember. He must have a carton of cheap ones. If he can't cope with Nest, (it might be the low voltage stat wiring that's throwing him), at least get something like Drayton Wiser. He'll recognise the receiver wiring as identical to the standard plate used in Ember. Stat is wireless and battery operated. Drayton kit2 is less expensive than ember (unless ember are being flogged off somewhere). Ember one CH and HW zone system is about €220, so the Nest is at most 40 more. Seems like he's adding in a time charge for setting up, which means he's not familiar with nest.

Hi, yeah, didn't understand that. I will check with him what options do I have, as I already had settled with Nest after following this thread for the last few years. Tbh Ember would do for me as I can automate it using HomeAssistant, but would rather have something a bit better.

What about the quote? I would be quite happy to install all that for 930 but not sure if there is way better value elsewhere.

Thanks

jarrieta

ted1 wrote: »

What’s wrong with the attic rad? Any attic conversion I’ve seen has used electric roads as there heating pumps often struggle with the height and need upgrading.
Nest is probably 350 extra as they dint have a deal like electric Ireland, try getting electric Ireland to quite similar

Might be the reason why they connected the attic rad to the HW instead of the heating circuit. I will contact EI to see what they quote

Edit: Cannot see the link offering Nest in EI website

deezell

jarrieta wrote: »

deezell wrote: »

Yes. Dont let him Install Ember. He must have a carton of cheap ones. If he can't cope with Nest, (it might be the low voltage stat wiring that's throwing him), at least get something like Drayton Wiser. He'll recognise the receiver wiring as identical to the standard plate used in Ember. Stat is wireless and battery operated. Drayton kit2 is less expensive than ember (unless ember are being flogged off somewhere). Ember one CH and HW zone system is about €220, so the Nest is at most 40 more. Seems like he's adding in a time charge for setting up, which means he's not familiar with nest.

.....What about the quote? I would be quite happy to install all that for 930 but not sure if there is way better value elsewhere.

Thanks

With 1300 worth of grants, and the cylinder discount of 350, it's looking reasonable. All the other hardware, TRVs, TRV bodies for the rads, motorised valves, stats and controller, pipes and fittings, wiring and junction boxes will add up to a good few hundred euro, say 500 at a guess. This leaves 1100 for labour, which is reasonable for a conversion of that scope, especially if he has to fit TRV valve bodies to the rads.
The s/s cylinder for €600 sounds good, they are expensive, easy to spend a grand on that alone. The quote is great, but discuss the Ember with him. Buy the nest/drayton/tado yourself and get him to leave the ember kit with you, flog it on Donadeal. Drayton Kit2 uses the same plate. Nest is a doddle also once he reads the wiring diagram of the receiver.
As regards the 'summer' valve, perhaps he's referring to the fact that he's installing two motorised valves in an S plan instead of one. With the correct controller mode or valve and cylinder stat wiring this can be tweaked to CH priority or HW priority, whereby one is curtailed until the other reaches target. This can be useful, as well as efficient if you have a smart boiler which can output hotter water for HW mode, then modulated less hot water for CH mode.