where are all the teachers?

man_no_plan

Talking to a number of colleagues at a meeting today and there seems to be a massive shortage of teachers this year across all subjects.

The impression in getting is that there are jobs with 18-22 hours that are only attracting applicants in the single figures.

The situation in Irish is well flagged, as are HEC and languages. This seems to extend to English, Maths, Metalwork!

It really makes me wonder. Anecdotally on here we hear there are no jobs, yet the live experience seems much different.

thefasteriwalk

Really? I'm very surprised to hear that - I thought it was just Home Ec and Irish. What part of the country are you talking about? Or is this all over?

man_no_plan

thefasteriwalk wrote: »

Really? I'm very surprised to hear that - I thought it was just Home Ec and Irish. What part of the country are you talking about? Or is this all over?

Widespread enough as far as I could make out.

Crazyteacher

The majority of fellow graduates got sick of the messing around by schools/ETBs themselves. Most can be found abroad or in other careers.

scoopmine

I would say its hard to recruit in certain areas due to rent and the commutable distance. If there is an abundance in jobs then teachers can afford to be more picky. How many teachers have gone straight to the middle east or have taken a career break to save for a house. The next ten years could see a huge change in the education sector....

mirrorwall14

Big problems in maths in Dublin/north Kildare from the stories I'm hearing

r93kaey5p2izun

What I see, in my school, across my ETB and union branch and from friends in other areas is that most are tied up with part time CIDs. They are complaining (quite rightly) that they have been treated disgracefully in terms of contracts (hours available year after year but spurious "objective grounds" used), they are showing up in all the statistics as lacking full time job security, but they are unavailable for jobs that arise as they cannot gamble on giving up the CID they have. The rules on re advertising and the messing around going on with these re advertisements (changing the subject combos for the year 2 ads - dozens of reported cases in my ETB) mean they are even less likely to risk going for new contracts now than before.

I also know quite a few teachers who have moved into other sectors in the past two years - mostly Maths and language teachers. And many who have gone to the Middle East and UK.

Mardy Bum

Crazyteacher wrote: »

The majority of fellow graduates got sick of the messing around by schools/ETBs themselves. Most can be found abroad or in other careers.

The majority? That is an astounding number. Was this a B.ed or Hdip class?

mtoutlemonde

It's good enough for management/the government with the way they have treated teachers especially the farce that goes on in ETBs and some principals who really don't care about people's welfare and stability and eventually getting a mortgage - you're a great teacher until someone better comes along or when they make it difficult to stay with the downgrading of hours, the classes on timetables etc. It's true, it's going to get worse as time goes by. I have already seen two jobs advertised on Facebook looking for language teachers.

SlinkyL

Any word on demand for science and biology teachers. Just finished a one yr Rpt 22 hr contract that I hoped would be renewed and so didn't apply to as many jobs as I should have, missed deadlines ..only sent in 3 applications so far but nothing back so far...Dublin based.

tuisginideach

Mardy Bum wrote: »

The majority? That is an astounding number. Was this a B.ed or Hdip class?

Don't think there are any HDips any more - now PMEs, 2 year and €12000!

man_no_plan

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

It's good enough for management/

Really!

man_no_plan

tuisginideach wrote: »

Don't think there are any HDips any more - now PMEs, 2 year and €12000!

I wonder are there any stats on it? Have numbers fallen off with the increased cost (and worse pay)..

TheDriver

It must be the usual time of year for this thread to resurrect its head. I do appreciate that there are some bad school managers out there in equal effect that there are some bad teachers out there but in the vast majority of cases, they are doing a good job.
a) teacher shortage: it doesn't appear as acute as recent years. it does depend on location and the type of job on offer but all in all, its not too bad. What I would say is the old favourites that got tons of applicants no longer do whereas the jobs with little or no applicants now attract some e.g. irish
b) Part time CIDs: There is a circular in 2016 that hours must be offered in the 1st instance to these teachers. unless there is a serious issue with being over quota and having to offer CIDs for temporary absence of a teacher, I don't see how objective grounds could defer from this.
c) 2nd year advertising: This was something that benefited teachers and fought for by unions and various reports. There is nothing against advertising jobs with different subject combinations for 2nd year and remember you don't have to advertise each job exactly the same. e.g. your english and history teacher retires doesn't mean that you must replace them as is. If we were to insist that its a very general subject base for 2nd year of CID, I guarantee that there's a greater risk that a teacher you are happy with loosing their job. There's conflicting views above regarding good teachers until a better one comes along vs insisting more general adverts. Unfortunately these are probably conflicting views.
d) There is a trend at present to go the middle east for teaching for a year and it is an attractive option for a while. I don't believe everyone going there is due to the job market here but rather a fashionable trend.
e) College courses have increased in years e.g. PME, Home Ec, Primary teaching. I don't know if there is an educational advantage but I'm sure they have sure footing as to why they did it.
f) People are moving into other careers but like 2000-2008, jobs in other sectors became very attractive. I don't believe its solely because of the teaching market

A lot of us started in the old EPT system. It is ironic that all the various schemes such as redeployment, CID hours give more job security, they also cause the process to become cumbersome and lengthy.

evolving_doors

tuisginideach wrote: »

Don't think there are any HDips any more - now PMEs, 2 year and €12000!

It's changed name several times since hdip so many teachers still refer to it as the hdip. Kind of like buying a new 'hoover'!

TheDriver

Gebgbegb wrote: »

It's changed name several times since hdip so many teachers still refer to it as the hdip. Kind of like buying a new 'hoover'!

Everyone is a "Dip" no matter what the course of training they are undertaking. Its an easy way than explaining the nuances of various teacher training programmes to staff who really couldn't care about the details

Seannew1

man_no_plan wrote: »

I wonder are there any stats on it? Have numbers fallen off with the increased cost (and worse pay)..

No, but I think it speaks volumes that a number of third level institutions extended their PME deadlines. TCD even re-opened their deadline for Irish and Maths student teachers.

doc_17

I was asking a young lad grommmy GAA club what he was doing next year (he's just finished his degree in History) and he said he was doing the PME. I told him flat out that if he didn't have another subject he should really considering trying to add one or else maybe not doing it. I'd imagine it would be very difficult to get a job as a Histoy teacher solely. He also mentioned CSPE and I had to explain to him how that works.

A few years ago when jobs were at premium you had a lot of teachers looking for work. But how many Business/Geography/History teachers was the system churning out? Too many. It's not fair in them really to allow them to qualify without a core subject. The universities need to look at that.

And the whole Science/Biology thing is something else that universities need to address when considering their intake. But I'm probably way off topic!

TheDriver

doc_17 wrote: »

I was asking a young lad grommmy GAA club what he was doing next year (he's just finished his degree in History) and he said he was doing the PME. I told him flat out that if he didn't have another subject he should really considering trying to add one or else maybe not doing it. I'd imagine it would be very difficult to get a job as a Histoy teacher solely. He also mentioned CSPE and I had to explain to him how that works.

A few years ago when jobs were at premium you had a lot of teachers looking for work. But how many Business/Geography/History teachers was the system churning out? Too many. It's not fair in them really to allow them to qualify without a core subject. The universities need to look at that.

And the whole Science/Biology thing is something else that universities need to address when considering their intake. But I'm probably way off topic!

You need 2 good subjects (CSPE wouldn't count as a countable subject because you could cover the whole school with very few periods). The geog/history/business isn't as over subscribed as it used to be and biology is also not as oversubscribed.

doc_17

There is a problem though with a feedback loop in terms of Science teachers who are also Biology teachers. They promote the Biology side of things at JC and this leads to more students taking Biology and becoming Biology and Science teachers. It was mentioned in the recent report by the department on STEM subjects.

Some schools can't offer offer Physics as there isn't anyone there to teach it!

man_no_plan

TheDriver wrote: »

It must be the usual time of year for this thread to resurrect its head. I do appreciate that there are some bad school managers out there in equal effect that there are some bad teachers out there but in the vast majority of cases, they are doing a good job.
a) teacher shortage: it doesn't appear as acute as recent years. it does depend on location and the type of job on offer but all in all, its not too bad. What I would say is the old favourites that got tons of applicants no longer do whereas the jobs with little or no applicants now attract some e.g. irish
b) Part time CIDs: There is a circular in 2016 that hours must be offered in the 1st instance to these teachers. unless there is a serious issue with being over quota and having to offer CIDs for temporary absence of a teacher, I don't see how objective grounds could defer from this.
c) 2nd year advertising: This was something that benefited teachers and fought for by unions and various reports. There is nothing against advertising jobs with different subject combinations for 2nd year and remember you don't have to advertise each job exactly the same. e.g. your english and history teacher retires doesn't mean that you must replace them as is. If we were to insist that its a very general subject base for 2nd year of CID, I guarantee that there's a greater risk that a teacher you are happy with loosing their job. There's conflicting views above regarding good teachers until a better one comes along vs insisting more general adverts. Unfortunately these are probably conflicting views.
d) There is a trend at present to go the middle east for teaching for a year and it is an attractive option for a while. I don't believe everyone going there is due to the job market here but rather a fashionable trend.
e) College courses have increased in years e.g. PME, Home Ec, Primary teaching. I don't know if there is an educational advantage but I'm sure they have sure footing as to why they did it.
f) People are moving into other careers but like 2000-2008, jobs in other sectors became very attractive. I don't believe its solely because of the teaching market

A lot of us started in the old EPT system. It is ironic that all the various schemes such as redeployment, CID hours give more job security, they also cause the process to become cumbersome and lengthy.

I think the thread is usually 'I have x years experience and I still cant get a job!'

All of the above are valid points of course but it doesn't explain the lack of applicants. When we got out first you'd be buying the paper every day to see if there was a job. There all online now but I'm no sure if people are bothered looking.

As for the year in the middle east / Australia I have seen a good few back from abroad this year so maybe there will be a balancing out.

infor123

Interviewed last week for a job...the person before went into the staffroom after their interview! Then I go in and know in my heart of hearts the job is gone! It's a disgrace.

Mardy Bum

infor123 wrote: »

Interviewed last week for a job...the person before went into the staffroom after their interview! Then I go in and know in my heart of hearts the job is gone! It's a disgrace.

What is a disgrace? Just because the person was in the job doesn't mean they are guaranteed to get it a second time. You have to push those thoughts to the side before an interview.

infor123

Mardy Bum wrote: »

What is a disgrace? Just because the person was in the job doesn't mean they are guaranteed to get it a second time. You have to push those thoughts to the side before an interview.

Yea I know but most of the time they do! I still went in and did my best in the interview but I just feel disheartened when it's constantly jobs are already gone!

I know it's great when it works in your favour and I've been that person too but hard when your not!

2xj3hplqgsbkym

infor123 wrote: »

Interviewed last week for a job...the person before went into the staffroom after their interview! Then I go in and know in my heart of hearts the job is gone! It's a disgrace.

Yes that is horrible. I had a similar experience last week. I was just finishing an interview that went really well and the principal accidentally mentioned that the teacher who was doing job share in the school last year would be applying also for this job, I just felt like I had wasted my time.

Exiled1

The increase in Deputy Principals in large schools has caused a big increase in new jobs. Also extra hours given to schools this year.
Problem continues for schools to source Irish and Home Ec. Also problems appearing in Maths, particularly since the TC has become very sticky re. recognition of maths qualifications. Lucky grads this year!!
As for the poster who saw the other candidate going to the staffroom......... nothing unusual in that since everybody has to be effectively interviewed at least twice before getting a sniff at a cid.

evolving_doors

yup... our school advertised for 3 positions that were tailored for the teachers already in the school (unusual subject combos with very specific extra curricular). It's a 100% foregone conclusion. But the principal has to advertise....no choice.

I know there'll probably be some poor souls the other end of the country who were jumping for joy looking at educationposts.ie thinking they had a shot. Spent time prepping and money traveling, thinking about the exciting possibilities of relocating to another part of the country all for nout.

In a way I think it's only fair (as rosebush mentioned) that the principal or whoever 'accidentally' lets it slip that someone internal is applying also, the earlier the better.

It's about getting interview experience and taking your chances too.

The system stinks though.

In terms of scarcity, the dept aren't overly concerned. The only thing that'd push the issue was if it were a severe lack of qualified maths teachers (languages next). I don't think they are that worried about Home ec. or Irish shortages.

mtoutlemonde

Gebgbegb wrote: »

yup... our school advertised for 3 positions that were tailored for the teachers already in the school (unusual subject combos with very specific extra curricular). It's a 100% foregone conclusion. But the principal has to advertise....no choice.

I know there'll probably be some poor souls the other end of the country who were jumping for joy looking at educationposts.ie thinking they had a shot. Spent time prepping and money traveling, thinking about the exciting possibilities of relocating to another part of the country all for nout.

In a way I think it's only fair (as rosebush mentioned) that the principal or whoever 'accidentally' lets it slip that someone internal is applying also, the earlier the better.

It's about getting interview experience and taking your chances too.

The system stinks though.

In terms of scarcity, the dept aren't overly concerned. The only thing that'd push the issue was if it were a severe lack of qualified maths teachers (languages next). I don't think they are that worried about Home ec. or Irish shortages.

I recently saw an advert which is a second year rpt position as it was advertised last year but it being changed for slightly more hours but different subjects but the best is 'year head experience advantageous' - I don't know many year heads on rpt contracts.

2xj3hplqgsbkym

Everyone keeps mentioning the shortage of Home Ec and Irish teachers, which are both my subjects!
While there have been many of these jobs advertised in the area I want to move to- midlands, very few are actual jobs with a prospect of permanacy, they are mostly career break, mat leave, job share etc...
I have a permanent job and a family, so wouldn't accept anything unless someone has resigned or retired and these are few and far between.

I'm wondering is it that Home ec teachers, predominantly female, have more babies than the average teacher and therefore more mat leaves, career breaks etc???

mtoutlemonde

Giovanna Freezing Minibike wrote: »

Everyone keeps mentioning the shortage of Home Ec and Irish teachers, which are both my subjects!
While there have been many of these jobs advertised in the area I want to move to- midlands, very few are actual jobs with a prospect of permanacy, they are mostly career break, mat leave, job share etc...
I have a permanent job and a family, so wouldn't accept anything unless someone has resigned or retired and these are few and far between.

I'm wondering is it that Home ec teachers, predominantly female, have more babies than the average teacher and therefore more mat leaves, career breaks etc???

The real jobs will appear in August/start of September. The return of the CP hours, SLAR meetings and curriculum changes may see retirements.

EmzBoBo

I've just finished a secondary teaching B.Ed degree (4 years).
I have applied for every job within a 1 1/2 hr commute from me, and only heard back from one of those jobs... to tell me that I wasn't even getting an interview. This is pretty much the same experience of everyone in my year that wants to teach this coming September. Those jobs were for 8-11 hr temporary contracts, so I'd still have needed another job in order to pay my bills.
I was discussing this with my course coordinator last week, and she looked through the list of schools I'd applied for with me and was able to tell me, quite emphatically, that the jobs in those schools were already gone, because "so and so from the Class of X is the teacher already in that school, and they should be due CID soon". As an NQT, it's really disheartening to hear that the "vast amount of job opportunities available to us" that the Teaching Council couldn't stop patting themselves on the back for at one of their induction talks in College, was a lie.
Nobody in my year wants to end up unemployed next year, so people are looking at non-teaching, but related fields. One of the guys in my year has moved to London to do this, because, as he puts it "only having an 8 or 11 hour contract, if we were lucky, would be unsustainable long term".
I myself have obtained a full time permanent contract in a school just outside London, so I'll be moving over at the end of the summer. I imagine more of my year will follow us over in the not too distant future, because sadly the jobs just aren't available at home.
Nobody in my year (myself included) wants to emigrate. I'd love to be able to get a job in Ireland, but they just don't exist, and I haven't worked this hard to get my degree, just to spend the foreseeable future hoping to get some subbing hours while working several other jobs just to pay my bills!