John McEnroe says Serena Williams would not beat top 700 male players

Shelga

Link: http://www.bbc.com/sport/tennis/40408799

Why does this type of thing get spouted again and again by male players every few months? I don't think anyone would deny that the best male in any sport is going to outperform the best female. It's biology.

But seriously, what is McEnroe hoping to achieve by coming out with comments like that? Does it add anything to the game? I can't see any reason to say that, other than to undermine women in tennis. I thought Serena's reply was so classy- "Dear John, I adore and respect you but please please keep me out of your statements that are not factually based.

"I've never played anyone ranked "there" nor do I have time. Respect me and my privacy as I'm trying to have a baby. Good day sir."

It's like constantly harping on that a heavyweight boxer would easily beat a featherweight. It has no bearing on anything. I just feel that players of both genders should support each other, and this just adds to the sense of division in tennis. Just irritates me as I like McEnroe, but comments like that are so unhelpful and pointless.

Thoughts?

Wimbledon fever is upon us again

For context:

Garcia-Navarro (interviewer): We're talking about male players but there is of course wonderful female players. Let's talk about Serena Williams. You say she is the best female player in the world in the book.

McEnroe: Best female player ever — no question.

Garcia-Navarro: Some wouldn't qualify it, some would say she's the best player in the world. Why qualify it?

McEnroe: Oh! Uh, she's not, you mean, the best player in the world, period?

Garcia-Navarro: Yeah, the best tennis player in the world. You know, why say female player?

McEnroe: Well because if she was in, if she played the men's circuit she'd be like 700 in the world.

Garcia-Navarro: You think so?

McEnroe: Yeah. That doesn't mean I don't think Serena is an incredible player. I do, but the reality of what would happen would be I think something that perhaps it'd be a little higher, perhaps it'd be a little lower. And on a given day, Serena could beat some players. I believe because she's so incredibly strong mentally that she could overcome some situations where players would choke 'cause she's been in it so many times, so many situations at Wimbledon, The U.S. Open, etc. But if she had to just play the circuit — the men's circuit — that would be an entirely different story.

Stupid question is stupid and leads to honest reply ... media goes wild.

Riskymove

If you read the transcript of the interview it has a bit more context which is missing from all the skewed reports seeking to make this sound worse than it was.

Essentially he was asked why he says in his book that Serena was "the best female player" rather than "the best tennis player"....so he answered it..he didn't just randomly come out and make the statement about Serena.

In his view she is not the best tennis player in the world but is the best in Women's tennis...perhaps the best ever.

You yourself say

"I don't think anyone would deny that the best male in any sport is going to outperform the best female. It's biology. "


so basically you and McEnroe are on the same page

Garcia-Navarro: We're talking about male players but there is of course wonderful female players. Let's talk about Serena Williams. You say she is the best female player in the world in the book.

McEnroe: Best female player ever — no question.

Garcia-Navarro: Some wouldn't qualify it, some would say she's the best player in the world. Why qualify it?

McEnroe: Oh! Uh, she's not, you mean, the best player in the world, period?

Garcia-Navarro: Yeah, the best tennis player in the world. You know, why say female player?

McEnroe: Well because if she was in, if she played the men's circuit she'd be like 700 in the world.

Garcia-Navarro: You think so?

McEnroe: Yeah. That doesn't mean I don't think Serena is an incredible player. I do, but the reality of what would happen would be I think something that perhaps it'd be a little higher, perhaps it'd be a little lower. And on a given day, Serena could beat some players. I believe because she's so incredibly strong mentally that she could overcome some situations where players would choke 'cause she's been in it so many times, so many situations at Wimbledon, The U.S. Open, etc. But if she had to just play the circuit — the men's circuit — that would be an entirely different story.

Carlos Orange

Main thought would be read whole interviews before forming opinions. Especially if you are going to post them online.

Shelga

Sorry. I read the entire BBC article. Next time I'll do a few weeks additional research before daring to post a conversation starter. Why not then talk about how the media twists things?

No wonder this forum is dead, any time I've posted anything over the last few years I've been made to feel totally unwelcome and small.

Riskymove

Shelga wrote: »

Why not then talk about how the media twists things?

Isn't that what we have done?

Shelga

"Main thought would be read whole interviews before forming opinions. Especially if you are going to post them online." What's the point of comments like that apart from to be rude? As if posting an article online is akin to pressing the red button. :rolleyes:

Riskymove

Shelga wrote: »

"Main thought would be read whole interviews before forming opinions. Especially if you are going to post them online." What's the point of comments like that apart from to be rude? As if posting an article online is akin to pressing the red button. :rolleyes:

fair enough if your comment was in reply to that poster

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Carlos Orange

Shelga wrote: »

"Main thought would be read whole interviews before forming opinions. Especially if you are going to post them online." What's the point of comments like that apart from to be rude? As if posting an article online is akin to pressing the red button. :rolleyes:

Modern news media is terrible. If it results in you being misinformed it is bad enough. If it results in you pretty much accusing someone of trying to undermine women in tennis that is worse. The media is responsible for the click bait fake news (in the parlance of the day) it writes. People spreading it are responsible for spreading it and defaming people. Media consumers have responsibilities now a day that they wouldn't have had 30 years ago.

Shelga

psinno wrote: »

Modern news media is terrible. If it results in you being misinformed it is bad enough. If it results in you pretty much accusing someone of trying to undermine women in tennis that is worse. The media is responsible for the click bait fake news (in the parlance of the day) it writes. People spreading it are responsible for spreading it and defaming people. Media consumers have responsibilities now a day that they wouldn't have had 30 years ago.

Defaming people?! Give me strength. What false statement have I spread?

gimli2112

tbh I saw this on Sky Sports News last night and formed the same opinion as the OP. It's quite bad now to see the actual article. Puts a completely different slant on it. SSN had footage of McEnroe looking contrite. Video reel was probably from several years ago.

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Carlos Orange

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I used to read the bbc news website daily. Probably more than daily. I don't any more. People can form their own opinion about the overall quality of journalism but this article doesn't shout out quality journalism to me.

Riskymove

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Perhaps that is why it is even more important that they put a bit of effort into stories before posting.

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Riskymove

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He mentions quality

It is selective quoting of the interview to say the least and clearly, imo, designed to portray McEnroe has just having randomly ranted negative things about Serena.

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Arghus

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What part of the article is incorrect though?

Are you suggesting that we all exhaustively check the sources of every piece of news we read? Most of us have reasonable discernment filters, the BBC World News Service would not have a reputation for being clickbaity so most people would accept what they print as true.

It's not incorrect, but it leaves out pertinant information and is somewhat misleading. If you read the BBC article alone you'd be forgiven for thinking McEnroe set out to be deliberately controversial, but, in actual fact, he was led into it by a, frankly, fairly stupid and leading question by the journalist. The BBC article and headline doesn't feature any of this context, which changes everything about his meaning and tone. So, yes, The BBC article isn't factually wrong, but it's not very accurate.

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Arghus

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So the OP is not in fact responsible for defaming anyone as was accused earlier in this thread?

Defaming? Jaysus, it's all getting very serious. I'm not interested in that. The OP gave an opinion - on an internet forum - based on an article that she read. That's all. Leave the legalese out of it.

Would you say that the BBC article gives a fair accurate impression of the original context for McEnroe's quotes?

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Carlos Orange

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Suggesting you read an interview before forming an opinion on what was said in an interview isn't a put down.
Unfortunately primary sources aren't always linked to by news media which can make it a little more work.

hollymartins

I don't understand the outrage regarding McEnroe's comments even if they were initially reported out of context. Up to last year Serena Williams was level with Steffi Graff on the number of Grand Slams yet I never hear Steffi Graff's name mentioned in these greatest athletes of all time conversations...yet Serena has been?

Also I'm not sure why she responded by mentioning her privacy and her baby? He never brought that up?

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Carlos Orange

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Which part of the post is incorrect?

Arghus

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The OP gave an opinion which, in my view, was largely half-baked, based on an article which stripped the original remarks of a great deal of context. If you read the BBC article it appears almost as if McEnroe just appeared out of thin air spouting controversial remarks about Serena Williams - why is he doing that? What an asshole etc, etc. But - The original transcript makes it clear that's really not what he was at. But if news organisations like the BBC cherry-pick the juiciest soundbite and lead with it, in order to ensure clicks, and then people base their entire opinion about someone else's opinion on the original inaccurate article then I don't think it's too much to say: check your facts.

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Arghus

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Absolutely not. But if they are going to post about it and actually don't have all the information, then people are going to point it out. Seems reasonable enough to me.

CitizenFloor

I think the real question here is who would will in a tennis match, between Conor McGregor, and Serena Williams.

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Riskymove

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Both myself and another poster pointed out our views, in what I believe was a fair manner including a quote of the wider interview.

The OP seem to have reacted to another poster who was considered rude.

It is open to the OP to ignore the percieved rude person and engage with the others. OP chose to react to the one percieved rude comment.

Arghus

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I've read the initial few posts in the thread again. The first two just try to provide further context - I don't see anything rude or condescending in them. The third reply by Psinno could be taken as being slightly rude, but, personally, I don't think it's a very hurtful remark. And even though I mightn't have put it quite so baldly myself, I would broadly agree with the gist of what he/she was saying: it's better to know all the facts before you decide to start posting about it. I know that we're not all automatons who can rigorously fact check absolutely everything, but were not talking intense work here - one more article was all that was required!

I sympathize with the OP to a certain extent, she saw it on BBC, which does have a reputation for relative impartiality. But, speaking for myself, if I see a article that's built around some quotes, but features nowhere in the article the remarks leading up to those same quotes - well then I'm pretty skeptical about whether I'm getting the full picture; regardless of whatever news source it is.

As a response the OP got very defensive and sarcastic. I can understand their frustration a bit, but, honestly, the first two replies just tried to be helpful: providing more context, without any real disagreement or attack on the OP. The third one... maybe it's a bit direct, but I don't think it's entirely unfair.

I'm sorry if the OP feels bullied, but I don't know if she was on the receiving end of particularly harsh treatment. Being honest I'm not an expert on The Ladies Lounge. I don't post here, I barely even come here. I just saw on the Boards front-page that there was a thread on this and so clicked on it to see what people were talking about. I don't know what kind of environment you should be trying to encourage here. Absolutely people should be fair and respectful, but also people should be free to disagree and point out what they view to be less than accurate. And I don't think that's being too mean about it.

Shelga

Sorry, have been in work. Maybe I was overly defensive but it's just I have noticed these type of responses in the last few threads I've created in TLL- over maybe 3 years so I'm not a regular poster here- and it's just not conducive to an atmosphere that makes people want to start topics.

It's like people scan your post to jump on things and then respond in a sniping manner. There are nice ways to discuss things, like Arghus has done above, and then there's rudeness.

I still think McEnroe's comment about the top 700 men was unnecessary, but I take the point about media spin. Defamation though... :rolleyes:

Riskymove

Riskymove wrote: »

Both myself and another poster pointed out our views, in what I believe was a fair manner including a quote of the wider interview.

At almost exactly the same time no less :pac:

Shelga wrote: »

It's like people scan your post to jump on things and then respond in a sniping manner. There are nice ways to discuss things, like Arghus has done above, and then there's rudeness.

That response (which I agree was unnecessarily rude) could also have been directed at Serena who has escalated the situation in terms of media fodder by taking the quote out of context, d'oh.

For my part, I clicked in because I've a bit of a grá for McEnroe and hadn't personally been aware of him being careless or sexist as a commentator so my curiosity was piqued as to how the quote came about.

But, to be honest, my first reaction to most sensational headlines is usually cynicism and, unfortunately, most of the time I find I'm correct.

Shelga wrote: »

I still think McEnroe's comment about the top 700 men was unnecessary, but I take the point about media spin.

Maybe unnecessary but possibly true. He knows the men's circuit and history (according to the BBC article) is not on the women's side.

ligerdub

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Agree on the latter but the jury is out on the former.

Hazys

Its a shame as McEnroe is a big fan of Serena and when asked a question on whether Serena was the best tennis player period, he answered honestly and then people took it as a slight against women and Serena. He could have lied and pandered to PC nonsense but imo that is just more condescending to women.

FYI In 1998, Serena played the 204th ranked male tennis player and was beaten pretty easily. So McEnroe's 700th in the world comment is not very far off the truth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Sexes_(tennis)#1998:_Karsten_Braasch_vs._the_Williams_sisters

psinno

psinno wrote: »

Modern news media is terrible. If it results in you being misinformed it is bad enough. If it results in you pretty much accusing someone of trying to undermine women in tennis that is worse. The media is responsible for the click bait fake news (in the parlance of the day) it writes. People spreading it are responsible for spreading it and defaming people. Media consumers have responsibilities now a day that they wouldn't have had 30 years ago.

I don't think you understand what defamation is.

onlyonpaper

Odd that Serena made the comment about wanting her privacy. Not a lot private in her appearance in August's edition of Vanity Fair

Permabear

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gormdubhgorm

This is the article about the male tennis pro who beat both Williams sisters.


https://www.theguardian.com/observer/osm/story/0,,543962,00.html


Their opponent was a male number 203 player in the world (Karsten Braasch) beat both Serena and Venus Williams on the same day back in 1998.

He was soon to be 350th the following year.

It was as simple as putting more spin on the ball and chasing the ball down according to Karsten Braasch.

skallywag

Nice to see the other side of the coin yesterday via Murray calling out the person interviewing him for neglecting female players.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/tennis/andy-murray-praised-for-taking-on-casual-sexism-as-he-corrects-reporter-who-appeared-to-overlook-female-tennis-35926041.html

ligerdub

The frenzy over that is way over the top.

He knew what he meant, they are entirely separate competitions.

LegacyUser

It's interesting because you can look at it two ways.

On the one hand, it's biology as another poster said. Serena couldn't compete in the top 700 as she wouldn't have the same physical strength and speed as male tennis players. So in that sense she couldn't be considered the best.

You could also look at it as being a different sport/division though. Take boxing for example. A middle-of-the-road heavyweight is going to beat a world class lightweight boxer because physically, the heavyweight will have more power. Does that mean the heavyweight should be regarded as being "better" than the lightweight? Or would you say that it's not a fair comparison? Sugar Ray Leonard is considered one of the best boxers of all time. If you put him (at his peak) in the ring with a decent heavyweight it's quite possible he wouldn't win the fight. He's considered the best because he won against fighters in the divisions he fought in. I think using that reasoning, you could argue that Serena could be considered one of the best tennis players.

I'm not a big tennis fan so I'm not invested in the argument but it seems to be defendant on how you frame the question.

cloudatlas

https://www.girlsgonestrong.com/blog/strength-training/strong-can-woman-get/

Good article. Unlike McEnroe Michael Phelps is a gent.

ligerdub

Girlsgonestrong.com huh.....a balanced view.

cloudatlas

ligerdub wrote: »

Girlsgonestrong.com huh.....a balanced view.

Did you even read the article?

ligerdub

cloudatlas wrote: »

Did you even read the article?

I did yeah.

cloudatlas

ligerdub wrote: »

I did yeah.

Yes and you have nothing to say.

It was a balanced article she is saying that it is reductive to speak in absolutes.

"We all vary greatly in height, weight, muscle fibers, and genetics.
Comparison, in my modest opinion, is a wasted exercise. But if you must compare, compare in weight classes and take overall muscle mass volume into consideration — and I haven’t even touched on issues relating to variations of female advantages in endurance, balance, and recovery."

Also liked the example of Ledecky and Phelps and they way he reacted to her time as a competitor, as a gentleman and a fellow athlete basically with absolute class compared with McEnroe who has never shown any class. Wimbledon commentators are notoriously sexist, it's not necessarily about what is said it's the way the point is put across.