Is there anybody else who dislikes pride?

AnSliabhCorcra

Hi

I sense I might be about to get a bashing on here:rolleyes: but nonetheless.

So - I'm 28 - I'm gay, in fact, I'm in a long-terms relationship with another man and due to get married this year so I'm definitely gay. I've never been camp and I usually throw off people's gaydar, something, which I'm quite happy about. That said however, I am proud to be gay.

I do, however, detest pride events. My sexuality, for me, is something very private and personal; I see myself as a completely normal person leading a completely normal life. I feel that I don't want to be associated with Pride because the extravagance of dressing up and screaming 'gay gay gay' from the rooftops really isn't my thing. I guess I don't want society to see me as 'part of that club' nor do I want my sexuality to be symbolised by the on-goings of a gay pride.

I've just put on my bullet-proof vest (not my pride costume!) and so I await your bashing! I'd love to hear your thoughts though!

Goodshape

I used to, a bit, but that really was just an internalised fear of being *seen* to be "like that". I didn't want to be "like that". I wanted to disappear and blend in and be "normal".

But you know what? I am normal. And so is everyone who takes part in pride. The camp guys and the butch girls and the people who enjoy dressing up, and the people who don't.

It's all normal. Normal for them personally, and a normal part of a broad and diverse society.

No one is forcing you out of your house and into the pride parade. But those who do go out and take part are doing so because they enjoy it, because visibility matters, and because it's a lot of fun.

Pouring scorn on the whole thing is the wrong approach, whatever your personal feelings are. Let those who enjoy it enjoy it. It's a celebration of love and diversity, not a sexual smut parade (not that I'm kink/smut-shaming , but the parade and festivities just aren't really about that!)

Annasopra

Lots of people feel this way.

I think there is a misperception that everyone who attends pride is a stereotype; overtly camp, very feminine, very in your face gay, exhibitionist, loves kinky stuff such as parading half naked in leathers etc etc etc. This is completely untrue. The vast majority of pride participants are not like this. And you know what. So what? Why not just let people be who they are.

What is normal anyway?

eaglach

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Lots of people feel this way.

I think there is a misperception that everyone who attends pride is a stereotype;

Does this not signify a failing of the pride parade? It's clearly reinforcing stereotypes.

I don't understand how these events are supposed to promote gay pride. For me, it comes across as an excuse to dress up in random outfits and express some of your sexual fetishes. Yes, the majority of people at the pride events are not like this, but these kind of things are what are memorable as they are not the norm.

If anything, I feel these events are damaging as it sends the wrong message.

Goodshape

eaglach wrote: »

these kind of things are what are memorable as they are not the norm.

What's "normal" and why is that any better?


Pride is absolutely about celebrating diversity and differences. Why not?

Annasopra

eaglach wrote: »

Does this not signify a failing of the pride parade? It's clearly reinforcing stereotypes.

I don't understand how these events are supposed to promote gay pride. For me, it comes across as an excuse to dress up in random outfits and express some of your sexual fetishes. Yes, the majority of people at the pride events are not like this, but these kind of things are what are memorable as they are not the norm.

If anything, I feel these events are damaging as it sends the wrong message.

I'm not into fetish or drag but I can never understand why there is a need by many lgbt people to shame those who are. I really dont see pride parades as damaging at all. If they are so damaging then how come they get bigger and bigger each year? How come large companies want to be seen at them? How come World Pride in Madrid next week will have an expected crowd of 3 million people.

gizmo81

None of us would have pride if it wasn't for our fags, marys, sissies, dykes, cross dressers, trans brothers and sisters who paved the way for us. Who were beaten by police, who were tortured by nazis, who were murdered by the closeted lover, who's lives were sacrificed for our freedoms.

Read an LGBTQ history book and ask yourself why you don't know who the heroes of the gay rights movement are.

Read about Heinz Hager and the men of the pink triangle. Sylvia Rivera, Martha P.Johnson, The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence and the Fire Island Widows. Larry kramer.

Just because you can 'pass' doesn't make you any superior to those who don't, they are the front line and take the punches for all of us.

baby and crumble

eaglach wrote: »

Does this not signify a failing of the pride parade? It's clearly reinforcing stereotypes.

Tbh it's moreso straight fascination with those elements of Pride that leads to the misconception. What's more interesting, dudes in jeans and t shirts walking along or some beefcake in tiny pants? Or in leather gear? Those pics get clicked on and shared more. Nobody wants to see a photo of me at Pride but a fabulous drag queen in full fig? Much more interesting.

Tbh I hate Paddys Day, never saw the point of it. I dislike GAA and can't stand match days. Doesn't mean I hate being Irish. I just leave the folks off who do enjoy it. What's the big deal with doing the same with pride?

Hunchback

gizmo81 wrote:

None of us would have pride if it wasn't for our fags, marys, sissies, dykes, cross dressers, trans brothers and sisters who paved the way for us. Who were beaten by police, who were tortured by nazis, who were murdered by the closeted lover, who's lives were sacrificed for our freedoms.

gizmo81 wrote:

Read an LGBTQ history book and ask yourself why you don't know who the heroes of the gay rights movement are.

gizmo81 wrote:

Read about Heinz Hager and the men of the pink triangle. Sylvia Rivera, Martha P.Johnson, The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence and the Fire Island Widows. Larry kramer.

gizmo81 wrote:

Just because you can 'pass' doesn't make you any superior to those who don't, they are the front line and take the punches for all of us.

Very well said. I will read up on Heinz Hager

gizmo81

Heinz Heger is one of the only first hand accounts of men with the pink triangle.

I recommend this book.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Men-Pink-Triangle-Heinz-Heger/dp/1555830064/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1498088105&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=heinz+hanger+pink+triangle

Hunchback wrote: »

Very well said. I will read up on Heinz Hager

hotmail.com

You detest pride events. Great. No one cares. I'm not a fan of Xmas but I doubt anyone cares about that either. Pride is one giant piss up these days anyway.

LLMMLL

AnSliabhCorcra wrote: »

Hi

I've never been camp and I usually throw off people's gaydar, something, which I'm quite happy about

This line tells us all we need to know about you.

Smiler1955

LLMMLL wrote: »

This line tells us all we need to know about you.

Meow!

BlinkingLights

I agree, and it sometimes annoys me when I encounter people being all judgmental about a particular aspect of the LGBT+ community. As things have gone more and more mainstream, there are some who would rather the 'more unusual' members just became conservative and took up wearing jeans and a t-shirt.

I remember when Panti did her big speech, a couple of UK guys I know took huge issue with the idea of a drag queen at all and basically had a go at me about how Ireland was clearly stuck in the 1970s and this was all from another era. These guys were also huge supporters of banning drag queens from the Glasgow pride as they were deemed offensive to trans people and women.

Total lack of understanding of history ...

Mr.Frame

I have been on Pride Parades for a number of years now and to be honest the vast majority of those in the parade are wearing tee shirts jeans and runners. Nor have I seen people on rooftops shouting "gay " gay" gay".

It always amuses me to hear ( same story every year) people saying they wont attend the parade because of the skimpy dressed participants and theyre "not like me" "I dont want to be associated with those "gays", Because I'm straight looking and normal looking" "These parades are damaging" ect


Pride parades are very important , theyre not just about showing who we are, it sends out an important message,that we and every gay person has a right to exist without persecution, abuse, discrimination.

It's visibility is also important for young LGBT people who see it/us.

I bet you all remember seeing your first gay pride and seeing "all those gay people",and thinking to yourself how happy they look, and maybe one day I too could walk in that parade.

Plus, we all remember walking in our first pride parade, just how good how it felt, (for me it was quite emotional.)

So stop knocking the parade, its important and to the OP and others, you like cock, those "horrible over the top camp guys" like cock, and guess what,,,, you're both the same , GAY.

eaglach

Goodshape wrote: »

What's "normal" and why is that any better?

I would say normal is whatever is socially accepted by society, which is probably a fair definition. And I did not say that "normal" is better!

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I'm not into fetish or drag but I can never understand why there is a need by many lgbt people to shame those who are.

Because these are things that go on behind closed doors! You don't see people in this gear walking down the street day to day. No one needs to be accepting of it in the public eye because it is generally a private thing for people who know what they're walking into.

I'd be very surprised to see a female stripper dancing on a pole in a Patrick's day parade.

gizmo81 wrote: »

Just because you can 'pass' doesn't make you any superior to those who don't

I don't think anyone suggested that.

baby and crumble wrote: »

I dislike GAA and can't stand match days. Doesn't mean I hate being Irish. I just leave the folks off who do enjoy it. What's the big deal with doing the same with pride?

The issue I have with it is that there are people out there representing me that I have nothing in common with except for the fact that I am gay. Their behaviour and appearance (not that there's anything specifically wrong with the majority of it) does nothing to reflect who I am as a person.

I'd be much happier if it was labelled the diversity parade or some such.

Mr.Frame wrote: »

It always amuses me to hear ( same story every year) people saying they wont attend the parade because of the skimpy dressed participants and theyre "not like me" "I dont want to be associated with those "gays", Because I'm straight looking and normal looking" "These parades are damaging" ect


Pride parades are very important , theyre not just about showing who we are, it sends out an important message,that we and every gay person has a right to exist without persecution, abuse, discrimination.

But what does being gay have to do with being into fetish gear? What does being gay have to do with being in drag? Plenty of straight people are involved with these things but don't feel the need to tell the world.

I'm all for people being themselves, but I don't see how these aspects fit in with a gay pride parade. Again, maybe if it was a diversity parade it would make more sense.

gizmo81

The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence? The Fire Island Widows?
Drag has helped change the world!

There are many sub-cultures within the gay community.

I think you should read up on homormativity.

You haven't had to fight for any of the freedoms you have but you now want to police/oppress 'others' expressions of their identity, now that you've assimilated into this 'normal' group.

I think your view is a symptom of the oppression LGBTQ people have historically faced and the lack of education for your own history and culture.

eaglach wrote: »

I would say normal is whatever is socially accepted by society, which is probably a fair definition. And I did not say that "normal" is better!



Because these are things that go on behind closed doors! You don't see people in this gear walking down the street day to day. No one needs to be accepting of it in the public eye because it is generally a private thing for people who know what they're walking into.

I'd be very surprised to see a female stripper dancing on a pole in a Patrick's day parade.



I don't think anyone suggested that.



The issue I have with it is that there are people out there representing me that I have nothing in common with except for the fact that I am gay. Their behaviour and appearance (not that there's anything specifically wrong with the majority of it) does nothing to reflect who I am as a person.

I'd be much happier if it was labelled the diversity parade or some such.



But what does being gay have to do with being into fetish gear? What does being gay have to do with being in drag? Plenty of straight people are involved with these things but don't feel the need to tell the world.

I'm all for people being themselves, but I don't see how these aspects fit in with a gay pride parade. Again, maybe if it was a diversity parade it would make more sense.

baby and crumble

eaglach wrote: »

I'd be very surprised to see a female stripper dancing on a pole in a Patrick's day parade.

Maybe not but you'll certainly see scantily clad women. Many Burlesque and samba etc dancers perform in the parade.

Not sure why you'd have a problem with one type of partial nudity and not another. If anyone in the Parade was doing anything outside of what's permitted (or nudity or lewd behaviour) then the Gardai would deal with them.

eaglach wrote: »

The issue I have with it is that there are people out there representing me that I have nothing in common with except for the fact that I am gay. Their behaviour and appearance (not that there's anything specifically wrong with the majority of it) does nothing to reflect who I am as a person.

Likewise Irish people in St. Patrick's Day parades. I have zero interest in Irish mythology, in drinking, in poetry etc which is what's most often lauded in the Parade. I think it doesn't reflect modern Ireland, or me, but hey. Most people in the world have the cop on to know that what's in parades isn't representative of the entirety of the group in question.

eaglach

gizmo81 wrote: »

You haven't had to fight for any of the freedoms you have but you now want to police/oppress 'others' expressions of their identity, now that you've assimilated into this 'normal' group.

I think your view is a symptom of the oppression LGBTQ people have historically faced and the lack of education for your own history and culture.

How exactly am I oppressing people? People can do what they want, I do not really care what you or anyone else gets up to as long as it doesn't hurt others.

The problem comes when these people, who apparently are representing me, go around in silly costumes and claim it's all in the name of pride. Nonsense.

baby and crumble wrote: »

Maybe not but you'll certainly see scantily clad women. Many Burlesque and samba etc dancers perform in the parade.

Not sure why you'd have a problem with one type of partial nudity and not another. If anyone in the Parade was doing anything outside of what's permitted (or nudity or lewd behaviour) then the Gardai would deal with them.

The Saint Patrick's Day Parade is in all honesty an excuse to showcase all and anything, doesn't represent Ireland and is just a day of partying for no true cause. Pride is supposed to mean something.

baby and crumble

eaglach wrote: »

The Saint Patrick's Day Parade is in all honesty an excuse to showcase all and anything, doesn't represent Ireland and is just a day of partying for no true cause. Pride is supposed to mean something.

Pride means it's a day to celebrate diversity in all it's forms.

I don't meant to be rude, but you need to read up on your queer history. Drag, fetish, all were cornerstones in LGBTQ history. For many years the drag and fetish communities were the only places that members of the community could feel accepted and not freaks for being outside of the sexual "norms"

If people didn't want to dress that way, they wouldn't. Nobody forces them too.

There's a massive straight fetish scene in Ireland. There's a massive swinging scene. Trust me, us queers aren't the crazy sexual ones. I know you'll counter with "at least that's behind closed doors" and you're right. It is. But maybe that's because the LGBTQ community is already marginalised. Being classed as deviants means we can just say "f*ck it" and do what we want, if we want.

The point of Pride was to show the diversity of our community and to protest inequality and for many people that means being incredibly vocal and obviously queer.

You may be able to "pass", and that's great for you. I can't. I'm a tall fat butch lesbian. Pride is the one day that I can walk around town with zero fear that I'm getting stared at for being a freak in my bow tie. People actually stop me and say NICE things about how I'm presenting. That so huge, I can't really explain it properly. I'm so pleased that there are (a minority of the total who are taking part) fabulous drag queens walking around town in their huge heels, and bears in leather, and all those things once a year. It means a hell of a lot to me.

GB FAN GALWAY 30

I agree with OP. Just don't see the need for the pomp and ceremony of it all. The majority of modern society couldn't care less who's gay, straight bi etc etc. Everyone is equal and I feel the whole razzmatazz of pride suggests to straight people that gay people are seeking reassurance or justification! Straight people don't go into pubs and restaurants and announce that they are straight, and I don't think the gay community need a parade to announce their sexuality.

Annasopra

eaglach wrote: »

How exactly am I oppressing people? People can do what they want, I do not really care what you or anyone else gets up to as long as it doesn't hurt others.

Shaming people who dress up in drag is actually a form of opression.

On the one hand you are saying you don't care and people can do whatever they want. On the other you want to police how people look and behave at pride.

gizmo81

Do you know what happened on June 28th 1969?

We are not all equal.

GB FAN GALWAY 30 wrote: »

I agree with OP. Just don't see the need for the pomp and ceremony of it all. The majority of modern society couldn't care less who's gay, straight bi etc etc. Everyone is equal and I feel the whole razzmatazz of pride suggests to straight people that gay people are seeking reassurance or justification! Straight people don't go into pubs and restaurants and announce that they are straight, and I don't think the gay community need a parade to announce their sexuality.

robyntmorton

Unfortunately, Eaglach, I get the feeling that you just want to complain.

Pride, as B&C said, is about the diversity of the LGBTQ community. If you feel that Pride does not represent you, that's a pity. There are positive things you can do though! Why not start by finding a group that you feel does represent you. If one doesn't exist, put feelers out about creating one. From there, get involved in Pride as a group, so that you are represented and it does represent you. Show those watching that there is yet another facet to the community, that doesn't feel the need to be OTT.

Or, of course, you can refuse to take part, and complain that you are not represented, and misrepresented. That is your perogotive. I must ask you though, does that option help you, anyone, or anything in any way?

GB FAN GALWAY 30

gizmo81 wrote: »

Do you know what happened on June 28th 1969?

We are not all equal.

Do you know what happened on May 22nd 2015?

We are all equal.

gizmo81

That is the most ridiculous thing.

There is more to equality than being able to marry.

GB FAN GALWAY 30 wrote: »

Do you know what happened on May 22nd 2015?

We are all equal.

Mr.Frame

GB FAN GALWAY 30 wrote: »

I agree with OP. Just don't see the need for the pomp and ceremony of it all. The majority of modern society couldn't care less who's gay, straight bi etc etc. Everyone is equal and I feel the whole razzmatazz of pride suggests to straight people that gay people are seeking reassurance or justification! Straight people don't go into pubs and restaurants and announce that they are straight, and I don't think the gay community need a parade to announce their sexuality.

Perhaps you should re read what I said above.

Gay people ARE seeking reassurance and justification,we might have as a country voted for marriage equality, but believe me there is still a LOT of snide comments,jokes (so called), whispers, aimed at gay people.

People are still afraid and anxious about coming out for fear of rejection from family and friends.

"Gay" "poof" "Fa,,ot" are terms which you will regularly hear from people who DO have a problem with gay people.

Only the other day a group of lads were on the beach I was on and they were joking around with each other,playing football, swimming ect but every other sentence they used the word Fa..ot, towards each other.

I as a gay man found that offensive,that even now 2017 young guys think its ok to use that term.


Ask any gay couple do they feel 100% safe in the knowledge that they can walk down the street holding their partners hand without having to look over their shoulder.
Or if they are brave enough to do so,the stares they get from other people.
So yes we are seeking reassurance. We want to be able to go about our lives without having to put up with the snide comments or stares.

You say that straight people dont go into bars or restaurants and announce that they are straight .
I know of no person who goes into a bar or restaurant and announces they are gay either !

LLMMLL

I've seen the parade a few times and there's non camp guys in it, some are likely in monogamous relationship and may be getting married. So you are represented. So your problem can't be that nobody is like you in the parade. It must be that not everyone is like you. It's an incredibly narrow minded way to view things.

I think part of being a mature gay adult is being able to deal with the fact that some non gay people believe every gay person is into drag, fashion, seedy sex etc. And not to have a go at those that are into those things.

Annasopra

GB FAN GALWAY 30 wrote: »

Do you know what happened on May 22nd 2015?

We are all equal.

That is honestly just silly.

Manion

I don't like take part in pride because I don't like parades.

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I'm not into fetish or drag but I can never understand why there is a need by many lgbt people to shame those who are. I really dont see pride parades as damaging at all. If they are so damaging then how come they get bigger and bigger each year? How come large companies want to be seen at them? How come World Pride in Madrid next week will have an expected crowd of 3 million people.

Well the historical justification for not likely pride is that my celebrating fringe it re enforces a them and us view which makes it harder for lgbt people to integrate into mainstream society.

That really doesn't stand up anymore for the reasons you outlined. Walking around town this last week you can see the sheer number of people into pride. I think Irish mainstream is pretty happy with fridges and also people outside the norm.

gizmo81 wrote: »

Do you know what happened on June 28th 1969?

We are not all equal.

Vietnam war? Thousands of people dying in a needless war? Flippant, but at the same time 49 years ago.

Annasopra

Fridges?