Is North Korea a victim of western propaganda?

I'm not an apologist for North Korea, I wouldn't like to live there, I have no doubt it's dismal.

But I sometimes see people liking and sharing the most ridiculous (and sometimes, clearly false) stories about North Korea, with unstinting credulity.

First of all, the country is presented as being technologically mediaeval, despite the fact that it has nuclear technology possessed by only a handful of countries on the planet.

There is also the trope of dictatorship, when in fact Kim Jon Un is neither the Head of Government nor the Head of Parliament (yes, there is a parliament in North Korea)

Kim Jong Un is only head of the military and head of the State Affairs Commission, the latter of which is also mainly to do with defence, and his role on which can be outvoted or abrogated by that Commission.

I also believe that Kim Jong Un would be a socialist icon if he had the dashing good looks of a young Che Guevara, but is instead reviled as a lunatic (but why?) despot because of his chubby appearance.

Oh and another thing, that diagram of acceptable North Korean haircuts has been widely debunked.

Western media also seem to accept without question the testimonies of those who have fled North Korea, without pausing to consider that these people are political opponents of the State, and of course they are going to present it in a bad light. Some of their claims are ludicrous, and have been retracted after being shown to be false.

I'm not saying North Korea is some utopia, but how many of you have actually thought critically about how it is portrayed, and have sought a balanced reporting on North Korean political and social life?

Have you ever considered that at least *part* of what you're swallowing may be propaganda?

ohnonotgmail

Perhaps they should let foreign journalists interview NK citizens freely so we can get this balanced view?

ohnonotgmail

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Perhaps they should let foreign journalists interview NK citizens freely so we can get this balanced view?

Doesn't that question assume that western media is balanced, that it doesn't have an ideological bias in favour of individual freedom and private property, etc?

spurious

There's a guy called Jaka Parker has an interesting set of videos on YouTube about North Korea. Not political as such, but an insight into life as a tourist.

ohnonotgmail

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Doesn't that question assume that western media is balanced, that it doesn't have an ideological bias in favour of individual freedom and private property, etc?

"western media" is not a homogenous group. they reflect a wide range of opinion. the country is a hellhole that would have starved to death long ago if not for foreign aid. to suggest that kim jong un is not a dictator is just laughably naive.

Tabnabs

A lot of the propaganda is Eastern based, as opposed to Western. The South Koreans put out a load of "fake news" to (a) show their people what a good job they are doing and how nasty that Kim is and (b) to ensure plenty of investment and military support from the USA and other allies.

The execution by anti-aircraft gun stories that do the rounds for example are likely not true and based on sketchy evidence. http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2015/05/14/north_korean_anti_aircraft_gun_execution_maybe_didn_t_happen.html

But there is no doubt that it is a repressive and authoritarian regime with little regard for its people. Another country where they are doing socialism/communism wrong...

biko

Tombo2001

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I'm not an apologist for North Korea, I wouldn't like to live there, I have no doubt it's dismal.

But I sometimes see people liking and sharing the most ridiculous (and sometimes, clearly false) stories about North Korea, with unstinting credulity.

First of all, the country is presented as being technologically mediaeval, despite the fact that it has nuclear technology possessed by only a handful of countries on the planet.

There is also the trope of dictatorship, when in fact Kim Jon Un is neither the Head of Government nor the Head of Parliament (yes, there is a parliament in North Korea)

Kim Jong Un is only head of the military and head of the State Affairs Commission, the latter of which is also mainly to do with defence, and his role on which can be outvoted or abrogated by that Commission.

I also believe that Kim Jong Un would be a socialist icon if he had the dashing good looks of a young Che Guevara, but is instead reviled as a lunatic (but why?) despot because of his chubby appearance.

Oh and another thing, that diagram of acceptable North Korean haircuts has been widely debunked.

Western media also seem to accept without question the testimonies of those who have fled North Korea, without pausing to consider that these people are political opponents of the State, and of course they are going to present it in a bad light. Some of their claims are ludicrous, and have been retracted after being shown to be false.

I'm not saying North Korea is some utopia, but how many of you have actually thought critically about how it is portrayed, and have sought a balanced reporting on North Korean political and social life?

Have you ever considered that at least *part* of what you're swallowing may be propaganda?

I would say that it is technologically mediaeval.

Yes it may have nuclear warheads - I will bet you that an awful lot of people have no electricity, no access to motorized vehicles, mobile phones, anything like that.

ohnonotgmail

spurious wrote: »

There's a guy called Jaka Parker has an interesting set of videos on YouTube about North Korea. Not political as such, but an insight into life as a tourist.

even with those you dont see the reality. talk to people who have escaped. They cant all be political opponents of the state. especially the children.

osarusan

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Have you ever considered that at least *part* of what you're swallowing may be propaganda?

You could say that about anything though.

You should take a look at the government website some time, it's a monument to propaganda.

http://www.korea-dpr.com/

The Democratic People's Republic of Korea is a genuine workers' state in which all the people are completely liberated from exploitation and oppression. The workers, peasants, soldiers and intellectuals are the true masters of their destiny and are in a unique position to defend their interests.

And I often wonder who the site is aimed at...like, who would be in a position to access it and yet still be likely to believe it.


A friend of mine visited North Korea a few years ago on one of those tours. He brought back with him a phrasebook, which was a cracker. Some of it was the usual "how much is this newspaper? How do I get to the station?" stuff, but there was also stuff along the lines of "Thank you for allowing me to visit a country with such a high standard of education and freedom."

I think the technologically medieval part comes not from what technology exists within the country (I'm sure the elite have all the modern technological comforts the elite elsewhere do), but how widely it is available and utilised. Farmers are still using ox and cart.

Jim Bob Scratcher

I don't think tourists are able to walk around freely, any videos i have watched about NK there always seems to be people nearby keeping an eye on them.

VinLieger

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

First of all, the country is presented as being technologically mediaeval, despite the fact that it has nuclear technology possessed by only a handful of countries on the planet.

The state having access to nuclear tech is not comparable to how the rest of the country lives ie with no technology at all, they barely have electricity to light their homes.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/north-korea-its-not-a-problem-that-country-goes-dark-at-night-10033200.html

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

There is also the trope of dictatorship, when in fact Kim Jon Un is neither the Head of Government nor the Head of Parliament (yes, there is a parliament in North Korea)

Kim Jong Un is only head of the military and head of the State Affairs Commission, the latter of which is also mainly to do with defence, and his role on which can be outvoted or abrogated by that Commission.

Just because Kim isnt a dictator in name its not a dictatorship? Kinda forgetting that whole forced worshipping of the kims as gods walking among them a bit though aren't you?

biko

biko wrote: »

Yeah, that image is 100% fake, for anyone who isn't aware.

Genuine satellite images of North Korea at night show that it is indistinguishable from the South.

johnp001

This film talks about the subject mentioned in the OP:

I found it very interesting to see a possible different interpretation of the subject of North Korea.

ohnonotgmail

osarusan wrote: »

You could say that about anything though.

You should take a look at the government website some time, it's a monument to propaganda.

http://www.korea-dpr.com/




And I often wonder who the site is aimed at...like, who would be in a position to access it and yet still be likely to believe it.

A friend of mine visited North Korea a few years ago on one of those tours. He brought back with him a phrasebook, which was a cracker. Some of it was the usual "how much is this newspaper? How do I get to the station?" stuff, but there was also stuff along the lines of "Thank you for allowing me to visit a country with such a high standard of education and freedom."

I came across that page a long time ago (well if not that one then it's predecessor). Run by a spanish guy if i'm not mistaken. Always tempted to the join the Korean Friendship Association.

VinLieger

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Yeah, that image is 100% fake, for anyone who isn't aware.

Genuine satellite images of North Korea at night show that it is indistinguishable from the South.

Evidence please

ohnonotgmail

Jim Bob Scratcher wrote: »

I don't think tourists are able to walk around freely, any videos i have watched about NK there always seems to be people nearby keeping an eye on them.

they're not free to go where they like or talk to who they like. they are all assigned a minder from the intellgence services. almost like they have something to hide.

Cina

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Yeah, that image is 100% fake, for anyone who isn't aware.

Genuine satellite images of North Korea at night show that it is indistinguishable from the South.

Yeah, NASA and their conspiraces.

VinLieger

VinLieger wrote: »

The state having access to nuclear tech is not comparable to how the rest of the country lives ie with no technology at all, they barely have electricity to light their homes. [/url]

The Egyptian company that runs the Korean mobile phone network says that phone ownership is in the millions. I think we can all agree that North Korea is a probably similarly advanced to its neighbours, in terms of the availability of technology, with the exception perhaps of South Korea.

Just because Kim isnt a dictator in name its not a dictatorship? Kinda forgetting that whole forced worshipping of the kims as gods walking among them a bit though aren't you?

I don't think they worship him, literally.

He's an authoritarian and he wields a lot of power, but calling him a dictator is probably a little bit of a stretch.

Zebra3

Never underestimate the ability of state's to lie to get their way.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_(testimony)

Tombo2001

THis is a great read about North Korea. Best thing I have read.

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2009/11/02/the-good-cook

ohnonotgmail

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Yeah, that image is 100% fake, for anyone who isn't aware.

Genuine satellite images of North Korea at night show that it is indistinguishable from the South.

NASA, National Geographic and even the north korea state news agency disagree with you.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/north-korea-its-not-a-problem-that-country-goes-dark-at-night-10033200.html

Cina

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I also believe that Kim Jong Un would be a socialist icon if he had the dashing good looks of a young Che Guevara, but is instead reviled as a lunatic (but why?) despot because of his chubby appearance.

Are you for real?

Che Guevera comparable to someone who dictates a country like this

Under the rule of Kim Jong-Un, North Korea remains among the world’s most repressive countries. All basic freedoms have been severely restricted under the Kim family’s political dynasty. A 2014 UN Commission of Inquiry found that abuses in North Korea were without parallel in the contemporary world. They include extermination, murder, enslavement, torture, imprisonment, rape, forced abortions, and other sexual violence. North Korea operates secretive prison camps where perceived opponents of the government are sent to face torture and abuse, starvation rations, and forced labor. Fear of collective punishment is used to silence dissent. There is no independent media, functioning civil society, or religious freedom.

Also, I mean, there's one minor difference between them (apart from their looks, of course), one's a dictator, the other tried to overthrow dictators.

OSI

OSI wrote: »

Is it?

It is. It's either fake, or else it's misleading, based perhaps on power outages.

ohnonotgmail

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

The Egyptian company that runs the Korean mobile phone network says that phone ownership is in the millions. I think we can all agree that North Korea is a probably similarly advanced to its neighbours, in terms of the availability of technology, with the exception perhaps of South Korea.

I don't think they worship him, literally.

He's an authoritarian and he wields a lot of power, but calling him a dictator is probably a little bit of a stretch.

how else do you describe somebody who rules absolutely and inherited that power?

Cina

Cina wrote: »

Are you for real?

Che Guevera comparable to someone who dictates a country like this



Also, I mean, there's one minor difference between them (apart from their looks, of course), one's a dictator, the other tried to overthrow dictators.

Che visited North Korea and held it up as an example that Cuba should pursue.

I disagree with him on that, I can't emphasise enough that I wouldn't like to live under North Korea (or under Che for that matter)

Skylinehead

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

It is. It's either fake, or else it's misleading, based perhaps on power outages.

One quick google of "Asia at night" has North Korea in almost total darkness in every photo. Are they all fake? Even when they're not related to NK specifically?

Cina

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Che visited North Korea and held it up as an example that Cuba should pursue.

I disagree with him on that, I can't emphasise enough that I wouldn't like to live under North Korea (or under Che for that matter)

Guevera had extreme views but I really wouldn't take anything someone says overly seriously whilst they are in North Korea sitting alongside their ruthless leader.

ScumLord

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

It is. It's either fake, or else it's misleading, based perhaps on power outages.

That's a photo of a photo, there's no indication of when it was taken, it looks very saturated too. I'd trust the ISS shot over that photo wherever it's from.

ohnonotgmail

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

It is. It's either fake, or else it's misleading, based perhaps on power outages.

you said it was 100% fake. clearly that isnt true.

Skylinehead

Skylinehead wrote: »

One quick google of "Asia at night" has North Korea in almost total darkness in every photo. Are they all fake? Even when they're not related to NK specifically?

I don't know. The picture my pic is from is a book about urban geography, and is not a propaganda item.

Cina

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I don't know. The picture my pic is from is a book about urban geography, and is not a propaganda item.

But you said the other picture is "100% fake" yet you take one from a book at face value, despite NASA and the ISS releasing multiple images of earth at night to the contrary that don't even focus specifically on NK?

ohnonotgmail

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I don't know. The picture my pic is from is a book about urban geography, and is not a propaganda item.

so any picture that shows otherwise is either 100% fake and/or is a propaganda item?

Cina

ohnonotgmail

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you said it was 100% fake. clearly that isnt true.

Ok let me rephrase it then, it's either doctored or it's misleading, in the sense that electricity may be limited during night time hours, as it can be in many parts of the world, such as capitalist countries in South America.

My pic, which is from an urban geography book, is unlikely to have been invented by some North Korean apologist who wrote a book about urban georgraphy and inserted this one sly photo to mess with our minds... don't you think?

biko

https://twitter.com/DPRK_News is always good for a chuckle

DPRK News Service‏
Father's day is United States holiday in which jobless children purchase neckties to repay their fathers for annual years rent of basements.

Midnight donkey racing in Nampo denounced as criminal conspiracy to terrorize the people.

Persecution of United States negro jazz singer Bing Crosby ends with jury sentenced to death by hanging.

Sternly worded letter from Marshal Kim Jong-Un convinces street mimes of Wonsan to mend their ways.

Cina

Cina wrote: »

Yeah, NASA and their conspiraces.

You don't actually believe they went to the moon do you?

ohnonotgmail

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Ok let me rephrase it then, it's either doctored or it's misleading, in the sense that electricity may be limited during night time hours, as it can be in many parts of the world, such as capitalist countries in South America.

My pic, which is from an urban geography book, is unlikely to have been invented by some North Korean apologist who wrote a book about urban georgraphy and inserted this one sly photo to mess with our minds... don't you think?

so all the pics that have been taken at night of north korea showing the lights off are misleading but your one pic is the gods honest truth of the matter?

VinLieger

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Ok let me rephrase it then, it's either doctored or it's misleading, in the sense that electricity may be limited during night time hours, as it can be in many parts of the world, such as capitalist countries in South America.

My pic, which is from an urban geography book, is unlikely to have been invented by some North Korean apologist who wrote a book about urban georgraphy and inserted this one sly photo to mess with our minds... don't you think?

Why is your book the only acceptable source compared to the hundreds of different online images? Is every single one doctored and propoganda? Bit of a conspiracy reach there if that's what you are saying.

Are you able to find one single other image beyond that book to backup your claim?

Skylinehead

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I don't know. The picture my pic is from is a book about urban geography, and is not a propaganda item.

The google results aren't propaganda either - most of the photos aren't aimed at NK, it's just visible in them. Unless literally every picture a satellite takes removes light from the place, which I would call a conspiracy theory.

LeinsterDub

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I don't know. The picture my pic is from is a book about urban geography, and is not a propaganda item.

When is your image from? China looks very dark and NK too bright by modern standards. NK has regressed and China has progressed . I'd hazard a guess that it's from the 60's or 70's?

ohnonotgmail

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

so all the pics that have been taken at night of north korea showing the lights off are misleading but your one pic is the gods honest truth of the matter?

I've already explained this. It is not the reality of the situation. Other pics, such as the ones shown, show North Korea lit up at night.

Now, maybe the darkness pictures are edited, or maybe there are power outages at night, but No, I do not believe those blackened pictures are representative of reality.

Click here for more ghoulish and depraved images of human existence in North Korea

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2638213/Tourist-took-camera-inside-North-Korea-expected-really-really-sad-people-shocked-seemingly-ordinary-lives-citizens.html

they even wear socks and sandals! sad! misery!

ScumLord

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Ok let me rephrase it then, it's either doctored or it's misleading, in the sense that electricity may be limited during night time hours, as it can be in many parts of the world, such as capitalist countries in South America.

Or it could be a photo from the 1960s or some other time when Korea had a proper operational electricity network. I think N.Korea has the infrastructure just not the money to run it.

There is something a bit odd looking about the photo you posted too, it's like it's been brightened up to highlight the lights, you can see spots of lights way up into the north at a fairly high intensity which I wouldn't expect.

It also takes in a lot of the planet for a satellite. It looks more like one of those photo stitches which highlights it's a composite and if it's been doctored in one way it may well have been doctored in other ways.

That doesn't mean it was doctored for nefarious reasons, if the authors wanted to highlight dense populations at night they may well have bumped the lights to make them stand out more.

ohnonotgmail

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I've already explained this. It is not the reality of the situation. Other pics, such as the ones shown, show North Korea lit up at night.

Now, maybe the darkness pictures are edited, or maybe there are power outages at night, but No, I do not believe those blackened pictures are representative of reality.

Click here for more ghoulish and depraved images of human existence in North Korea

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2638213/Tourist-took-camera-inside-North-Korea-expected-really-really-sad-people-shocked-seemingly-ordinary-lives-citizens.html

other pic you mean, not pics. can you point towards a pic that isnt in your book? otherwise you are saying that there is a global conspiracy to show NK is a bad light (pun intended)

Rumpy Pumpy

T-shirt icon, Che, was a fan of prison camps himself.

Cina

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

they even wear socks and sandals! sad! misery!

oh you're Donald Trump, now you believing fake news makes sense.

Zebra3

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Che visited North Korea and held it up as an example that Cuba should pursue.

I disagree with him on that, I can't emphasise enough that I wouldn't like to live under North Korea (or under Che for that matter)

CG was murdered a long time ago, not like he was praising DPRK yesterday or last week.

DPRK's economy bounced back very strongly after the US carpet bombed it in the early 50s. Their economy was very strong up until the 1970s, far stronger than the economy under the southern dictatorship.

ohnonotgmail

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I've already explained this. It is not the reality of the situation. Other pics, such as the ones shown, show North Korea lit up at night.

Now, maybe the darkness pictures are edited, or maybe there are power outages at night, but No, I do not believe those blackened pictures are representative of reality.

Click here for more ghoulish and depraved images of human existence in North Korea

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2638213/Tourist-took-camera-inside-North-Korea-expected-really-really-sad-people-shocked-seemingly-ordinary-lives-citizens.html

they even wear socks and sandals! sad! misery!

LOL. he asked NK to do a photographic essay and you are surprised that it shows NK in a good light? funny they didnt let him take photos in prison camps.

El Weirdo

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Yeah, that image is 100% fake, for anyone who isn't aware.

Genuine satellite images of North Korea at night show that it is indistinguishable from the South.

You have been made a moderator of r/Pyonyang.

Cina

Cina wrote: »

oh you're Donald Trump

what?

Cina you're losing it. I am not Donald Trump. I made a joke about people wearing sandals with socks because it was by far the most offensive thing in all those images or North Korean life.

Trump isn't a big fan of North Korea. He swallows whole everything he is told about it. As many people do.

Again, I would hate to live there, I do think it's a messed up country, but I at least try to think critically about media bias and credibility of some of the more outlandish claims made in our media.

ohnonotgmail

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

LOL. he asked NK to do a photographic essay and you are surprised that it shows NK in a good light? funny they didnt let him take photos in prison camps.

Yeah prison camps exist in North Korea. Absolutely no doubt about that.

They exist in the US too, but they just call them prisons over there.