1

Chuchote

Why don't schools have competitive cycling? They play hurling and hockey and football and basketball competitively, but why not cycling?

degsie

At a guess it would be a nightmare to supervise, given that you would be leaving school grounds and traveling on public roads.

I love Sean nos

Chuchote wrote: »

Why don't schools have competitive cycling? They play hurling and hockey and football and basketball competitively, but why not cycling?

Perceived as dangerous and a niche sport, whereas swinging lumps of wood at someone's head wouldn't be. Insurance costs. Bike expense. Supervision cost.

greenspurs

Route ..... insurance ...... safety .....

The school mine are in, wont allow them wrap their sambos in tin foil FFS !!
Or play football with a "leather ball" only plastic ones ......
Bubble wrapped , lining up the next Snowflake generation !!!

Chuchote

degsie wrote: »

At a guess it would be a nightmare to supervise, given that you would be leaving school grounds and traveling on public roads.

Do school hurlers dematerialise at home and rematerialise on the field for competitive games?

degsie

Chuchote wrote: »

Do school hurlers dematerialise at home and rematerialise on the field for competitive games?

Yes, I've seen it happen. It was up around Knock.

I love Sean nos

greenspurs wrote: »

The school mine are in, wont allow them wrap their sambos in tin foil FFS !!

Is tinfoil considered hazardous now?

Chuchote

I love Sean nos wrote: »

Is tinfoil considered hazardous now?

Don't want them to repurpose it as hats?

Back to the cycling clubs - it seems really weird that schools don't do this. Imagine an inner city Dublin school able to bring the kids out to Meath or Wicklow or Kildare on runs, show them how their country is available to them by just turning the pedals.

And in terms of competitive sport, is there really no schools league?

greenspurs

Chuchote wrote: »

Don't want them to repurpose it as hats?

Back to the cycling clubs - it seems really weird that schools don't do this. Imagine an inner city Dublin school able to bring the kids out to Meath or Wicklow or Kildare on runs, show them how their country is available to them by just turning the pedals.

And in terms of competitive sport, is there really no schools league?

Clubs - Carrick wheelers run a great beginners league , where there is quite a good turnout from kids , on a nice loop circuit.
Clonmel also run one , but its around Clonmel Racecourse, with a Brute of a hill !!! I put my little one off cycling for life after she did it.....
When i was in secondary school, there used to be a County Championship for school teams, mainly TimeTrials as far as i can remember, but that was it.

greenspurs

I love Sean nos wrote: »

Is tinfoil considered hazardous now?

Yes ! Seemingly....... :rolleyes::cool:
But they can hurl the sh1te outta each other .... Thats Kilkenny for yaa :P

2 Wheels Good

Charly Wegelius (he of the Domestique book) got out of PE and was allowed go off and cycle for his PE class rather than do the sports he didn't want to do.

Always thought it was a great idea, but he was dedicated to cycling. Not sure all teenagers would be as dedicated once around the corner from the school.

Chuchote

greenspurs wrote: »

Clubs - Carrick wheelers run a great beginners league , where there is quite a good turnout from kids , on a nice loop circuit.
Clonmel also run one , but its around Clonmel Racecourse, with a Brute of a hill !!! I put my little one off cycling for life after she did it.....
When i was in secondary school, there used to be a County Championship for school teams, mainly TimeTrials as far as i can remember, but that was it.

Shouldn't the clubs be touring schools to draw in members and enthuse PE teachers?

Leroy42

CI should certainly be going around school. Doesn't have to be racing, but skills etc. Can be done in the playground or carpark. Balancing, slalom, teaching about maintenance etc. A couple of easily adjusted bikes so that even people without bikes can have a go

Get people involved in bikes. It doesn't have to be about racing, that the great thing about cycling. In GAA/soccer if you aren't good enough you quickly get left behind. There are so many aspects of cycling, road racing, leisure, bmx, cross etc, that everyone no matter what ability can partake at some level.

Even if its just to demystify cycling for lots of people out there who still count it as weird as 'hippie'. Show them how easy it is to fix a puncture, set up the gears and oil the chain.

Show them some Danny MacAskill videos

joey100

I worked with kids, not in a school setting but not far off it. The closest we got to anything like this was mountain biking with them and even then it was a challenge. The cost of it, safety aspects as well as trying to keep an eye on 6 young people on bikes made it not feasible. We also ran bike workshops where young people learned to build bikes, worked well and they seemed to enjoy it but can't say any were into it enough to take cycling seriously or want to do it. For them the bike is a way of getting around, not for sport. We did have success getting interest in other niche sports but cycling never seemed to take off. The cost for a school, or where I worked, in purchasing the bikes, storing the bikes and maintaining the bikes meant even from our side, without even asking the young people about it, there were too many barriers in the way. Renting mountain bikes took away some of these but we then had the added cost of getting out to the site where it was taking place. Insurance was a huge issue too. One or two lads over the years got into the mountain biking from it, one went on to do an outdoor pursuits course in college and got a bit of work with one of the companies we used.

I love Sean nos

Corkagh Park would be a great location for this. Bring the kids via minibus, with the bikes in a trailer.

Chuchote

Schools shouldn't have to buy the bikes (though perhaps a government scheme might operate, similar to Bike-to-Work); cycle clubs, for a start, could be those kids with a) bikes and b) interest in cycling.

magicbastarder

running school sports at the moment doesn't require the use of public roads, so there are those issues of safety and liability, as well as the sheer manpower required for stewarding, etc.

all you need for one game of various types of football involving 30 kids is one teacher. for a cycle race you'd probably need 10 or more.

Leroy42

Weepsie wrote: »

I'm sorry. Parents should buy and encourage kids to cycle to work, but that is all. This doesn't need or shouldn't require any state intervention beyond promotion.

So unlike every other sport in this country?

You do know that the government gives millions to each of the GAA and Soccer (I am not sure of Rugby but my guess would be it does).

Chuchote

Sooo… the cyclists on this forum, going on the replies so far, would generally be hostile to the idea of cycling as a school sport?

randomname2005

greenspurs wrote: »

Route ..... insurance ...... safety .....

The school mine are in, wont allow them wrap their sambos in tin foil FFS !!
Or play football with a "leather ball" only plastic ones ......
Bubble wrapped , lining up the next Snowflake generation !!!

Initially I thought 'wt absolute f', are they worried about tinfoil cuts or something. But it looks like this is an environmental thing, trying to encourage the use of reusable lunchboxes.

Leroy42

magicbastarder wrote: »

running school sports at the moment doesn't require the use of public roads, so there are those issues of safety and liability, as well as the sheer manpower required for stewarding, etc.

all you need for one game of various types of football involving 30 kids is one teacher. for a cycle race you'd probably need 10 or more.

Bu that is only if you focus on road racing. Why not set up a cross course on one of the football pitches. Couple of lines of tape, one coach.

If the kids want to get into road (or any other type) of racing then that is where the clubs come in, and the clubs already have the mentoring systems in place.

joey100

The number of young people with an interest in cycling wouldn't be enough to justify the cost of buying/renting bikes, storing these or if not storing them collecting them and then maintaining them. Even renting a mini bus to get somewhere that the bikes would be supplied would a big enough cost. From my experience BMX and mountain biking are the way to get kids interested in cycling, they are exciting and short enough for them. The problem with these 2 is the insurance required for schools or other organisations to bring young people along. High public liability insurance along with schools and most youth organisations being unable to sign waivers mean that most of these are inaccessible.

The best option would be for cycling Ireland to come to schools and run taster sessions, from this the young people who were most interested could join their local club. This has worked for other sports in the past were the interest wouldn't have been enough for the school to take it on themselves, for example, high board diving, fencing.

Triathlon Ireland run sessions with schools and alongside the sports development officers in DCC. These seem to be going well and interest in the sport is growing. Plenty of kids events popping up on the triathlon Ireland calender.

Out of curiosity how many cycling clubs out there have sections that could cater for 12-15 year olds?

Chuchote

God be with the days when a mam or dad could come and get a bunch of kids and take them out for a day's cycling for fun and a picnic.

greenspurs

joey100 wrote: »

The best option would be for cycling Ireland to come to schools and run taster sessions, from this the young people who were most interested could join their local club.

Yes, i absolutley agree....
It SHOULD be a no brainer, but theres probably no money in it for the Organisation.....

Leroy42

Weepsie wrote: »

That's not what I said and has been purposely taken out of context. I was specifically talking about racing in schools and having government funded bikes for this reason.

We could be really pedantic and list the numerous sports that don't get funding.

Now a Bike2School scheme is different but that's not what is being mooted here.

There are so many headaches organizing races that it's a non goer and is best left to the clubs.

But it was in the contect of the costs of bikes, insurance etc.

So money is central to that. The other sports get millions to develop their facilities, either through direct grants or lottery funding.

Why not divert some of that to cycling. Buy a few low end cross style bikes, hire a few people to go around and work in the schools, get government to cover the insurance.

We can spend millions on improvement GAA and soccer facilities. All weather pitches, flood lights etc. Money isn't the issue, it is the way it is allocated.

Unlike team sports, which invariably all fall down to winning and losing, cycling is a life skill and is increasingly a form of transport. It should be kept to the forefront of childrens minds.

BTW, I think the same about swimming. Funds should be diverted from the team sports to getting all kids engaged in swimming

Chuchote

And cycling is something that could be a lifelong thing; I'm absolutely all for kids playing hurling, soccer, rugger, etc, but wander into Kiely's and you'll see a lot of pregnant chappies who were rugger heroes in their day, and ditto for hurling and Gaelic and soccer champs in their thirties and forties. Whereas once a cyclist, mostly always a cyclist, with the knock-on effect on fitness for the population.

joey100

I know nothing about the working of cycling Ireland, I do know they run the pocket sprocket courses and that's about it. Do they have development officers? My background is in triathlon and I think Triathlon Ireland have 4 development officers who's job it is to promote triathlon across the country but mainly in the area's that they can see room for growth, women in triathlon have been targeted along with young people.

I get that schools should be involved in promoting young people having access to as many different sports as possible, give them a chance to find out what they are good at and what they like, but is some of the onus not on cycling Ireland to help facilitate this?

From working with young people in an out of school setting cycling is a hard sell. The majority of young people just don't see it as a sport. Young people want to compete, they want to measure themselves against each other and road cycling in particular doesn't lend itself to this in a school setting. We used to go BMX'ing with the young people in an indoor track in Cherry Orchard, it was great. DCC were involved, the kids loved it, able tor ace against each other, it had a great turnout and was consistently attended but after nearly every session we had at least 1 young person injured. Parents and funders (probably understandably) didn't like this and we weren't allowed go anymore.

Thud

how many/what percentage of kids cycle to school lately?
It was well over 50% when I was in primary school down the country years ago but suspect it is much less nowadays.

Kids grow out of bikes pretty quickly, most start out on hybrid/bmx/mountain type bikes if the seed was planted early enough the few kids that do commute could push parents to buy a road bikes instead of hybrid/mountain bike and equipment wouldn't be so much of an issue.

Chuchote

Weepsie wrote: »

There some wonderful sweeping generalisations you're making there.

Only speaking from my own experience of people I've met and known and met. Ah, tis well I remember the night I tried to help an aged derelict up off the road where he was lying in his vomit at Kelly's Corner; a passer-by said "That man scored the winning goal…" and named a famous hurling match. And many's the evening I spent in Kiely's and its like, with bloated old chaps reminiscing on their hero days.

But I'll take it under advisement that a majority of school sports players continue to play into old age.

Thud wrote: »

how many/what percentage of kids cycle to school lately?
It was well over 50% when I was in primary school down the country years ago but suspect it is much less nowadays.

Figures from the latest Census:

http://irishcycle.com/2017/06/15/82000-people-in-ireland-on-their-bikes-as-their-main-mode-of-transport-cencus-2016/

More males at school or college aged between 13 and 18 years cycled to school than drove themselves (6,588 vs 2,971), but far more females drove themselves than cycled (694 [cycling] vs 2,068).

HivemindXX

When I was in school we had a cycling team for a short time. Everyone that was interested signed up and tried out on a loop around the local estate. The one and only race against other schools was at the track in Sundrive. There must have been 10 or 20 other schools at it. I have no recollection whatsoever as to how we all (and my in particular) got to Sundrive but I can tell you it wasn't in the non-existent school minibus.

I'd love if that was still a thing but I can't see it working in that way these days. There's no way the school (and their lawyers), parents or local motorists would tolerate racing around a housing estate.

That's not to say there isn't some way to make it work. I just don't see any easy way with the logistics and insurance issues.

I certainly agree that there's no way the school should be buying bikes for these kids and that may unfortunately exclude a lot of kids who can't get one. As others have pointed out there's a gulf between buying a bicycle for everyone and "no funding" though. Most, if not all, sports in school require some funding. If there is interest then I don't see why cycling should get the same support that football or basketball does. I don't think funding alone would make it viable.

It's a tricky idea, but maybe it could be worked out. Something for Shane Ross to think over perhaps.

joey100

I'm not trying to be negative here, I'm just giving my experience but unfortunately that wouldn't work Thud. If young people brought their own bikes and their was damage done to them the school would be liable for fixing this.

I've tried hard to get young people interested in cycling and involved for a few years now in my work. It's hard, it's a lot of work and honestly for the amount who do take it up my time and effort is better placed. Their are just too many obstacles in place to really give it a go. I have ran bike building programmes with bike shops that were really good and the young people enjoyed but once it was over they moved onto something else.

In my opinion this should be targeted by Cycling Ireland. I've working with development officers from Diving Ireland, fencing Ireland, Swim Ireland, Leinster Cricket, amateur boxing association, triathlon Ireland. This takes the pressure off the school to be the expert and gives the young people a good taste of the sport so they can decide themselves if they want to look into it more. I contacted cycling Ireland but was only given info about sprocket rockets.

Harrybelafonte

I'll be the negative one here then. You seem to have asked a question without doing any real research into it.

What do you know about competitive cycling in Ireland?
Do you belong to a club?
Do you have kids?
Have you asked a school?
Why does competitive cycling for children have to involve schools when multiple clubs exist around Ireland?
Any idea of insurance costs?
Have you yourself made any efforts to start something similar?
Have you attended any road or track races in Ireland and observed the numbers of children involved there?
Have you contacted CI and asked what they do to encourage children to race?
Have you contacted clubs to ask what they do to encourage children racing?

Is it cos it's Friday or something?

Harrybelafonte

Weepsie wrote: »

I obviously would note exception for helping to develop young elite cyclists and getting the Velodrome built.

The velodrome which already exists in Sundrive already does this.

Harrybelafonte

Weepsie wrote: »

Yes, but an indoor Velodrome that could do it 365 days a year, morning to night and whatever the weather would do it a whole lot better. Not knocking Sundrive. A great facility.

I realise that, but there's a strange attitude amongst the cycling community and on this forum that suddenly things will be awesome when "we" get a velodrome, meanwhile "we'll" just sit and wait. There's already a velodrome in Sundrive that hosts an international level event each year, has had world champions race at it almost each year since it started and no-one attends it. I realise I keep saying this, but if "you" want a velodrome so badly, go and show that there's more than the usual 20 people who set up each event at Sundrive and marshall it and race at it etc, it might be more convincing that a few posts on boards.

I fully realise this was not your point Weepsie, I'm simply using hte point you made to make this statement again. It is linked to the debate on this thread on the basis that OP seems to have little understanding of the steps already involved to encourage children to race and the work that is ongoing in the background.

magicbastarder

kinda prompted by the thread on CI and where money goes, i was just trying to figure out how much it would cost to have a cycling class for every primary school pupil, say in 5th class.
from the stats i can find, there are approx 65,000 or 70,000 pupils in an average 5th class across the country. if they had a single one hour class in that year, 30 pupils in a class, that's 2,200 hours required, so that's probably a full time job for about half a dozen people to allow for overheads. not a huge amount of money in the grand scheme of things, but a significant budgetary hit for any NGO operating with multiple drains on income.

kenmc

Not directly "in school", but still recognized for the achievement that it is: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1971044596254759&substory_index=0&id=195689253790311

ted1

Chuchote wrote: »

Why don't schools have competitive cycling? They play hurling and hockey and football and basketball competitively, but why not cycling?

Each of those sports are on closed pitches, fields etc and don't require specialist equipment fairly obvious

Beasty

Chuchote wrote: »

Sooo… the cyclists on this forum, going on the replies so far, would generally be hostile to the idea of cycling as a school sport?

I am not seeing hostility, simply posters highlighting some of the likely issues

As a matter of interest, would you volunteer your time to do something like this? Are you a member of CI? Do you understand the resource issues it faces?

They do already have the Sprocket Rocket programme. Some clubs (my own included) actively encourage youth cycling. Orwell Wheelers put on weekly races at Corkagh Park throughout the summer

All of this relies heavily on volunteers and we need more cyclists prepared to devote more time to progress such a proposal

Chuchote

Why would a school sport require the public to volunteer their time?

magicbastarder

Chuchote wrote: »

Why would a school sport require the public to volunteer their time?

to quote Beasty, 'All of this relies heavily on volunteers' - what school has facilities to allow cycle racing within the grounds? what school is going to be willing to pay the insurance to allow cycle racing within the grounds?
once you leave the school grounds, the demands become more onerous.

JK.BMC

Chuchote wrote: »

Why don't schools have competitive cycling? They play hurling and hockey and football and basketball competitively, but why not cycling?

So - back to the original question. I must put my hand up and say I'm both a competitive cyclist and a teacher. What strikes me about this particular thread and the perspective of the OP is typical of discussion around schools/teaching/education generally in Ireland. it appears to me that Chuchote knows little of how schools operate on a daily basis and in particular how extra-curricular sport is managed. But I suppose thats why the question is asked so fair enough.
The phrase "teachers/schools have enough to be doing" is without doubt true. Our fundamental task is to teach in classrooms. (It's actually sickening when the "three months holidays blah blah" brigade get involved in such discussion but we will leave that aside for the moment.)
But the unfolding of the discussion then involves criticising the teachers/gubbermint/national organisation or debating about how money should be spent etc etc etc. Same thing here so no surprize in that.

If it really was as simple as "sure, go on there boys and girls with Mr/Mrs Smith and do 10 laps of the green shed circuit and finish with a sprint and be back for lunch" then lots of schools would be doing it. But that isn't happening and actually I would have my doubts about the suitability of schools and teachers organising road races in this day and age. Clubs already do this - we don't exactly have hundreds and thousands chomping at the bit to race as it is - and then expecting teachers/schools to double up on this? Where is this supposed to go long term?

Even going to Sundrive, or any "new" velodrome, involves considerable investment of time/resources which I can absolutely guarantee you, are stretched fairly thinly as it is. And remember, every single school in Ireland has an extra-curricular programme, almost all on a volunteer basis, sometimes involving parents and other development officers/volunteers in order to keep these kids active, involved, competitive and healthy. This stuff happens everyday, in every school, in every county, almost all of it voluntary, like all school sports. Comparing cycling by the way with rugby (I coach a bit) GAA soccer etc is a false comparison for a whole pile of reasons which I won't elaborate upon.

What SHOULD happen, and actually does at a small enough level, is for competent adults to work with school kids on things like cycle skills and road safety. I have a colleague who does this kind of work but to my knowledge it is not funded by CI but through the RSA.

I would suggest to Chuchote, if this is not already the case, to apply for a week or two of substitute teaching/supervising in a bustling secondary school next September. Work out how exactly you would implement cycle racing into the school curriculum. Best of luck with that.

Miklos

There was a touring club in my old school that was run after school on a Wednesday, I wish I had paid more attention to it back then but I know that myself and some other guys have subsequently got into competitive cycling.

It was run by a couple of enthusiasts and all very inclusive and wholesome, to be honest I think that's probably the best way to introduce kids to getting out on their bikes and the wider world of cycling. If the kids are interested enough they'll find their own way into competition.

dragratchet

i met a group from black-rock college out on the road one day.. big gang with a teacher leading. weren't involved in racing per say but getting k's in ahead of a cycling trip to France i think.

Wishbone Ash

Thud wrote: »

how many/what percentage of kids cycle to school lately?
It was well over 50% when I was in primary school down the country years ago but suspect it is much less nowadays....

I went to a large primary school (1970's) and a large secondary school (early 1980's) and can't recall a single pupil cycling to either schools. I think I would have been afraid to leave my bikes locked up and unattended at school when I was a youngster.

I currently live across the street from a well known mixed secondary school and I see lots of pupils cycling through the gates each day (albeit almost all male).

Chuchote

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I went to a large primary school (1970's) and a large secondary school (early 1980's) and can't recall a single pupil cycling to either schools. I think I would have been afraid to leave my bikes locked up and unattended at school when I was a youngster.

I currently live across the street from a well known mixed secondary school and I see lots of pupils cycling through the gates each day (albeit almost all male).

Wait till the girls discover cycling fashion

Wishbone Ash

Chuchote wrote: »

Wait till the girls discover cycling fashion...

There are so many distracting school girl errors with that pic - non-drive side, misaligned skewer ends, tyre logo's not over valves, spoke reflectors, pie plate etc.....

Beasty

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I went to a large primary school (1970's) and a large secondary school (early 1980's) and can't recall a single pupil cycling to either schools. I think I would have been afraid to leave my bikes locked up and unattended at school when I was a youngster.

I currently live across the street from a well known mixed secondary school and I see lots of pupils cycling through the gates each day (albeit almost all male).

I certainly used to cycle to school in the mid to late 70s. The bike shed was very popular (for bikes as well as other things....)

magicbastarder

i cycled to secondary school late 80s/early 90s - several dozen people cycled in. i'd guess maybe 40? in a school of 550 pupils.

worth noting also that the year ahead of me was the first year where this was an option, would be curious to see what it's like now though.

EAD

For the last two years I have led cycling training after school for senior students (4th, 5th and 6th year) aiming to do one leg of the Cycle Against Suicide. I also coach Gaelic football, oh and teach!
The logistics and level of responsibility involved in training the students for a one-off event on open roads is incompatible with a year's worth of football.
Firstly, 8 teachers had to be trained up (in their own time) to help lead the spins. Due to the nature of our location we also needed a lead car to warn drivers of our presence and a support car to safely remove students from the road where machanicals/injury occurred.
As lead teacher the students' safety ultimately lay with me; this was quite a burden of responsibility. When my students play football they may take a hard knock but this pales into insignificance when compared to how wrong things can go on the road with 25/30 students and irresponsible/irrational drivers.
To take students to the event involved 6 teachers being freed up from teaching (very difficult), the hiring of a bus (simple enough) and the sourcing of transport for the bikes (very difficult).
As an avid cyclist and teacher I would love to see cycling become a part of school life but logistically it's unlikely to happen.

Beasty

TBH the way to encourage more kids to cycle under the auspices of CI is via the clubs.

I try and lead regular youth spins with my own club, but I suspect there are not many, if any, other clubs northside that do the same. I do know Orwell heavily invest time and effort with youths. In addition Ratoath BMX is a great facility for kids (and offers them racing) - likewise Sundrive. Both BMX and track offer safe environments away from motorised traffic and as I've already mentioned Orwell regularly put on youth sessions at Corkagh Park

Having said that I am slightly disappointed with the uptake at my own club. Youth membership is free and CI membership (including a racing licence) is only a tenner for u14s. I encourage my own 2 kids in that age category, and I know many other club members have kids of similar ages, but unfortunately only a handful get involved in any formal road spins (I know some do BMX) - that's as much down to parents not encouraging them a bit more (and again my own club will invest in appropriate bikes if the need arises - we maintain a youth fund precisely for that kind of thing)

Finnrocco

There was / is a taster programme between Sundrive Velo and local schools to bring students out and give them a few hours introduction to track racing.

From talking to the lads who do it, it seems that most who do it seem to like it, but very few come back and take up the sport.

I've often thought of trying to get kids where I live out, but the potential issues of insurance, safety etc come up.

Even my own kids cycle a lot but just aren't bothered doing it competitively or as part of a club.

I always thought an indoor velodrome would be the answer to raising participation levels, but I guess there's no guarantee that it would be.