London Fire and Aftermath RIP

JaMarcusHustle

Macie Few Skunk wrote:

Very reminiscent of twin towers. Has anyone mentioned terrorism? Dont shoot me! Was just my initial reaction when I woke to that news. Though thats my reaction to everything these days

Terrorist attacks are usually more "statement" attacks. Arson isn't really their style, as wrong as that sounds.

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JaMarcusHustle wrote: »

Terrorist attacks are usually more "statement" attacks. Arson isn't really their style, as wrong as that sounds.

This would be a massive statement. Lot of fatalities & doesn't get much more terrifying than that. I hope its not but wouldn't surprise me

happywithlife

I wouldn't suspect terrorism either but an earlier poster suggested a backlash to a high number of Muslims living there - Jesus I really hope not! Think that is more frightening as the only to fight any group like that is unity amongst people not turning on each other. Images look devasting. Cannot but think of families desperate to get out. My thoughts and prayers go out to all victims their families and the emergency responders involved - must have been horrific

Persephone kindness

Could be accidental ...arson for insurance ...terrorism irish islamic or other wise. I would say it's accidental though.

JaMarcusHustle

Macie Few Skunk wrote: »

This would be a massive statement. Lot of fatalities & doesn't get much more terrifying than that. I hope its not but wouldn't surprise me

I doubt it is. When I say "statement", I mean that they are usually violent attacks in very public, densely-crowded areas. An arson attack on a residential building in the middle of the night isn't really the style of terrorist attack that we're used to, not that I'd be surprised if it turned out to be one.

Outkast_IRE

To me it looks like the fire could of possibly spread using the renovations that were done on the facade. External insulation in a facade like that can spread a fire if the installation details of the manufacturer are not correctly adhered to. It will be interesting to see what the initial cause was and just how it spread so extensively in a building which apparently had a 10 Million renovation recently.

Being involved in the construction industry myself and having done investigations and budget costs for refurbs to office blocks, one of the main costs with any work on an older building is bringing up the fire related items to compliance.

Harry Palmr

The building had been recently renovated which always raises an alarm - when systems are being renewed sometimes it's adds errors and weak points in heating and electrical systems and so on.

RobertKK

I did my usual routine.
Woke up, see what is trending on twitter, and I couldn't believe my eyes as it showed the tower on fire.
So so sad, really shocking to see what happened, people throwing themselves from the building. It reminds one of 9/11 of people who jumped to stop being burned alive.
Death toll will likely be high - hopefully I am wrong, one can only imagine the terror of the fire, and not be even close to imagining how the people trapped felt.
An awful tragedy. Terrible.

JaMarcusHustle

ChunkyLover54 wrote: »

Apparently residents were already concerned about the risk of fire at the building:

https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2016/01/24/grenfell-tower-still-a-fire-risk/

That post was in January 2016. There was a follow up post in November 2016 here:

https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2016/11/20/kctmo-playing-with-fire/

It is a truly terrifying thought but the Grenfell Action Group firmly believe that only a catastrophic event will expose the ineptitude and incompetence of our landlord, the KCTMO, and bring an end to the dangerous living conditions and neglect of health and safety legislation that they inflict upon their tenants and leaseholders. We believe that the KCTMO are an evil, unprincipled, mini-mafia who have no business to be charged with the responsibility of looking after the every day management of large scale social housing estates and that their sordid collusion with the RBKC Council is a recipe for a future major disaster.

Unfortunately, the Grenfell Action Group have reached the conclusion that only an incident that results in serious loss of life of KCTMO residents will allow the external scrutiny to occur that will shine a light on the practices that characterise the malign governance of this non-functioning organisation. We believe that the KCTMO have ensured their ongoing survival by the use of proxy votes at their Annual General Meeting that see them returned with a mandate of 98% in favour of the continuation of their inept and highly dangerous management of our homes. It is no coincidence that the 98% is the same figure that is returned by the infamous Kim Jong-un of North Korea who claims mass popularity while reputedly enslaving the general population and starving the majority of his people to death.

It is our conviction that a serious fire in a tower block or similar high density residential property is the most likely reason that those who wield power at the KCTMO will be found out and brought to justice! The Grenfell Action Group believe that the KCTMO narrowly averted a major fire disaster at Grenfell Tower in 2013 when residents experienced a period of terrifying power surges that were subsequently found to have been caused by faulty wiring. We believe that our attempts to highlight the seriousness of this event were covered up by the KCTMO with the help of the RBKC Scrutiny Committee who refused to investigate the legitimate concerns of tenants and leaseholders.

We have blogged many times on the subject of fire safety at Grenfell Tower and we believe that these investigations will become part of damning evidence of the poor safety record of the KCTMO should a fire affect any other of their properties and cause the loss of life that we are predicting:

https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2013/01/28/fire-safety-scandal-at-lancaster-west/

https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2013/01/30/more-on-fire-safety/

https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2013/02/21/another-fire-safety-scandal/

https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2016/01/24/grenfell-tower-still-a-fire-risk/

In October 2015 a fire ripped through another KCTMO property, the 14 storey Adair Tower in North Kensington, causing mass panic and resulting in a number of residents taken to hospital suffering from smoke inhalation. It is reported that had it not been for the swift actions of the London Fire Brigade the consequences of this fire and potential loss of life could have been much worse.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11967592/50-rescued-from-burning-flats-in-Kensington.html

In the aftermath of the Adair Tower fire the London Fire Brigade found that the KCTMO had not been looking after the safety of residents properly and issued an Enforcement Order compelling them to improve the fire safety in the escape staircases and to provide self closing devices to all the tower block’s front doors. A further audit by the London Fire Brigade of the neighbouring Hazelwood Tower (located alongside Adair Tower) found similar breaches of health and safety legislation and an Enforcement Order was also issued for this property forcing the TMO to address the serious concerns of the Fire Brigade’s inspectors. What is shocking is that a decade ago a fatality occurred due to a fire at Hazelwood Tower and the Fire Investigation Team ordered that the grills on the fire escape staircase be covered over. This never happened and it is believed that the uncovered grills at Adair House (Hazelwood Tower’s twin block) acted like a chimney and were responsible for the accelerated spread of the fire and smoke damage.

In the last twenty years and despite the terrifying power surge incident in 2013 and recent fire at Adair Tower, the residents of Grenfell Tower have received no proper fire safety instructions from the KCTMO. Residents were informed by a temporary notice stuck in the lift and one announcement in a recent regeneration newsletter that they should remain in their flats in the event of fire. There are not and never have been any instructions posted in the Grenfell Tower noticeboard or on individual floor as to how residents should act in event of a fire. Anyone who witnessed the recent tower block fire at Shepherds Court, in nearby Shepherd’s Bush, will know that the advice to remain in our properties would have led to certain fatalities and we are calling on our landlord to re-consider the advice that they have so badly circulated.

The Grenfell Action Group predict that it won’t be long before the words of this blog come back to haunt the KCTMO management and we will do everything in our power to ensure that those in authority know how long and how appallingly our landlord has ignored their responsibility to ensure the heath and safety of their tenants and leaseholders. They can’t say that they haven’t been warned!

Anybody else a little unsettled at just how.... threatening..... that language sounds?

Beyondgone

Lucy8080 wrote: »

A guy who lived in the building said his next door neighbour's fridge exploded.

This was apparently on the 5th floor ,others seem to be mentioning the fire starting on the second floor.

It seems this building had three floors added recently , so if you previously lived on floor 2 it would now be floor 5. It may be the reason for conflicting reports of where the fire started.

Would the floors not be added to the top, so 2 would stay 2..?

buried

Jesus that looks horrific. How many floors? Looks like 6 flats to each floor, probably full of families. This is terrible scene

Lucy8080

nhunter100 wrote: »

How does that work? They build from the bottom up now in tower builds? Would it not be easier to build on top of the top floor. Level 2 would still be level 2.

One of the residents said that prior to the recent refurbishment of the block her floor was the 8th. It became the 11th floor after the refurb.

Maybe they had parking space under the first floor or dug down , I'm not sure .
A lot of reporters across different media have been confused over whether this building has 24 or 27 floors.

nhunter100

Lucy8080 wrote:

One of the residents said that prior to the recent refurbishment of the block her floor was the 8th. It became the 11th floor after the refurb.

So by that logic it suggests the building was jacked up and 3 floors were slid in underneath.

kippy

JaMarcusHustle wrote: »

That post was in January 2016. There was a follow up post in November 2016 here:

https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2016/11/20/kctmo-playing-with-fire/



Anybody else a little unsettled at just how.... threatening..... that language sounds?

In fairness there's not many other ways to put across the seriousness of the issue if they have been ignored to that point . Id hold off on reading into things too much till the facts are established if I were you.

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120 flats according to sky news

Beyondgone

nhunter100 wrote: »

So by that logic it suggests the building was jacked up and 3 floors were slid in underneath.

I don't think you can jack an older tower block. Or any tower block. You'd have to sever the columns going into the foundation mass, it'd topple. Plus "quite heavy". This sounds the stuff of nightmares though. How do you evacuate the upper floors if the bottoms ablaze? Unless there was a fire-proof escape stairs? Or helicopters - but the fire would make that almost impossible with the winds it would generate. Jasus, it'd be terrifying for anyone on the higher floors.

gandalf

A resident who got out was interviewed on the BBC mentioned that the management company were changing the heating from electric to gas in the complex and he speculated that could have contributed to the fire.

RIP to those who have lost their lives!

Lucy8080

nhunter100 wrote: »

So by that logic it suggests the building was jacked up and 3 floors were slid in underneath.

I dunno how it came about , maybe they redesignated floor numbers that had been previously used as a lobby or gym or your guess is as good as mine.

For some reason ,the floor numbering system has changed recently according to one of the residents.

Maybe basement became 1st floor , ground- 2nd floor .. etc.

ITV say 50 in hospital.

gandalf

gandalf wrote: »

A resident who got out was interviewed on the BBC mentioned that the management company were changing the heating from electric to gas in the complex and he speculated that could have contributed to the fire.

RIP to those who have lost their lives!

Could have. But from the images it looks like the fire spread around the outside of the building.

Mint Sauce

Just after seeing this on some of my News Feeds, and immediately turned on LBC to listen to more info on it. Looks and sounds like a disaster scene from a movie.

CeilingFly

Lucy8080 wrote: »

It seems this building had three floors added recently , so if you previously lived on floor 2 it would now be floor 5. It may be the reason for conflicting reports of where the fire started.

I take it you just woke up and have yet to have morning coffee

nhunter100 wrote: »

So by that logic it suggests the building was jacked up and 3 floors were slid in underneath.

Almost King Kong like!

But more seriously - high rise flats in part of UK and particularly London are death traps in any emergency and unfortunately it sometimes takes a horrendous situation like this for proper action to be taken.

Councils in the UK don't have the necessary staff or experience to deal with the number of issues and there's a lot of turning a blind eye to dangerous situations and this one could see dozens of fatalities especially as residents were initially told NOT to evacuate (eye witness report on BBC).


Over here the Stardust tragedy resulted in massive changes to fire laws that probably saved many lives since. Similarly and more recently a more stringent look at fire risks in apartments built in the boom has resulted in remedial works carried out on many blocks but in any case we don't have the 20-30 floor high rise legacy that London has.

gandalf

Deleted User wrote: »

Could have. But from the images it looks like the fire spread around the outside of the building.

Oh absolutely, when they analyse this I am positive it will turn out there were a catalogue of mistakes. Very serious questions about the what type of fire retardant rating that cladding had, as you say from the pictures it appears it helped the fire spread.

TallGlass

Looking at it on RT Live on YouTube, is it even stable enough to send FF into? It looks extremely unstable from the YouTube stream.

Surreal images to look at it.

CeilingFly

Beyondgone wrote: »

This sounds the stuff of nightmares though. How do you evacuate the upper floors if the bottoms ablaze? Unless there was a fire-proof escape stairs?

Yes, all blocks of flats will have a concrete fire stairs. Even any paint within that stair chamber will be a special fire proof paint. Once you can get to that stairs you'd be fairly certain to reach safety.

The issue seems that the flats were not evacuated when the fire started and people were told to stay inside. Trying to get from your flat to the stairs would have been near impossible if there was dense smoke, thus trapping you.

Persephone kindness

TallGlass wrote: »

Looking at it on RT Live on YouTube, is it even stable enough to send FF into? It looks extremely unstable from the YouTube stream.

Surreal images to look at it.

They run into places like lions that people run out of to get those people out..there is no courage like fire fighter courage. LIONS.

Hector Savage

Jesus, Guardian saying fire equipment not checked for years!
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/14/fire-safety-concerns-raised-by-grenfell-tower-residents-in-2012?CMP=share_btn_tw

Persephone kindness

Hector Savage wrote: »

Jesus, Guardian saying fire equipment not checked for years!
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/14/fire-safety-concerns-raised-by-grenfell-tower-residents-in-2012?CMP=share_btn_tw

That is negligence.

Peregrinus

CeilingFly wrote: »

Yes, all blocks of flats will have a concrete fire stairs. Even any paint within that stair chamber will be a special fire proof paint. Once you can get to that stairs you'd be fairly certain to reach safety.

If you're not overcome by smoke or fumes. The emergency stairwells are supposed to have self-closing doors to minimise this risk, but if they're not properly maintained (or if somebody helpfully props one open) the stairwells can fill with fumes very quickly. Most people who die in fires die of asphyxiation, not incineration.)

CeilingFly wrote: »

The issue seems that the flats were not evacuated when the fire started and people were told to stay inside. Trying to get from your flat to the stairs would have been near impossible if there was dense smoke, thus trapping you.

Early reports are suggesting that the building's fire alarm system did not go off until the lower floors were well alight, or did not go off at all. Most people who reported hearing an alarm heard their own or a neighbour's smoke alarm, and thus must have been pretty close to the source of the fire. If you were fifteen floors up, by the time you became aware there was a problem the fire may have taken quite a hold below you, and escape may have been very difficult.

Persephone kindness

I hope parts of the building don't give...load bearing walls etc.