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Girl sectioned after psychiatrist ruled out abortion

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    #32
    Yourself isit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,257 ✭✭✭Yourself isit


    cnocbui wrote: »
    What a typically 'Irish' story.

    Just adds to the fuel powering my intention to leave this country ASAP and to take my daughter to a more sane country.

    Yeh. Does she have a choice?


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    #33
    Nabber
    Registered Users Posts: 2,855 ✭✭✭Nabber


    How old is the girl?

    If sexual inter course was consensual, then why should I be outraged that she is not allowed an abortion?

    Being sectioned unjustly, now that I don't agree with.


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    #34
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    cnocbui wrote: »
    This is an abortion issue, it was a health practitioners own twisted moral compass that was behind them sectioning someone in order to prevent an abortion.

    I'm going to give this psychiatrist the benefit of the doubt for the moment and assume they made their decision based on their expertise rather than their own morality.

    I'm still shocked at how this has all played out. The psychiatrist made a decision that no abortion could take place. Why then did the girl and her mother think otherwise, what led them to think that they were actually going to have the abortion that day? Am I the only one who can't make sense of that?

    And why if she wasn't suicidal enough for an abortion was she ruled suicidal enough to be sectioned? I think this all needs to be cleared up so that no other woman will be deterred from seeking help if she needs it.


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    #35
    mahamageehad
    Registered Users Posts: 4,673 ✭✭✭mahamageehad


    Jamiekelly wrote: »
    Well done, you have just proven my point.

    The entire argument for pro life is that the right of the foetus to live is the same right to life that everyone has under law. Is it not?

    Whether you mean to take someone's life is the defining principle between murder and manslaughter. If abortion is murder because the pregnant woman wants the child to die then miscarriage is manslaughter by the same definition.

    You never even tried to debate against the argument, which proves why your "right to life" view falls down under the most basic of scrutiny.

    I have no business even debating this? From your reply it looks like you don't want to debate it to begin with....
    Christ. I mean, I get where you're trying to go with this, but if abortion is murder then miscarriage is a tragic case of passing away in the night. There's intent in an abortion, and "fault" if you want to continue with that (misguided) line of thinking, but no woman can choose whether or not she miscarries. Jesus.


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    #36
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,673 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I can understand the refusal to allow the abortion. The issue here isn't really about abortion imo, its about her being sectioned and why that happened and if this is now something that any women looking for abortion on suicide grounds might have happen to them.

    It says she was angry because she was under the impression she had arrived in dublin to have the abortion. Who told her and her mother that was the case? Why were they travelling to dublin if there was no chance of the abortion happening? Obviously she was angry and upset at this but is that reason enough to section someone?

    She was not allowed the abortion because she was not ruled to be suicidal.....why then was she sectioned?

    Something really crooked about this entire thing.


    I completely agree with you that the issue here isn't about abortion, but I don't think there's anything crooked about it, particularly when it's obviously a minor we're talking about here and the fact that a GAL was appointed to advocate on her behalf.

    It's not unusual for the media to want to portray the circumstances of the case in a particular light though according to their own agenda, to give the appearance of something being crooked about the way the case was handled.


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    #37
    Jamiekelly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,047 ✭✭✭Jamiekelly


    anna080 wrote: »
    Miscarriages have nothing to do with neglecting the health of your baby. What an appallingly insulting and hurtful thing to say.

    Look at the post again without a veil of emotion clouding your judgement of it. I'm not advocating the view that women who have miscarriages should be legally prosecuted. I'm wondering why those who advocate "abortion is murder" don't advocate miscarriage being manslaughter under their own definition of fetuses having the same right to life as others.


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    #38
    cnocbui
    Registered Users Posts: 19,733 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I'm going to give this psychiatrist the benefit of the doubt for the moment and assume they made their decision based on their expertise rather than their own morality.

    I'm still shocked at how this has all played out. The psychiatrist made a decision that no abortion could take place. Why then did the girl and her mother think otherwise, what led them to think that they were actually going to have the abortion that day? Am I the only one who can't make sense of that?

    And why if she wasn't suicidal enough for an abortion was she ruled suicidal enough to be sectioned? I think this all needs to be cleared up so that no other woman will be deterred from seeking help if she needs it.

    This is the country where medical practitioners regularly broke women's pelvises - Symphysiotomy, an incredibly painful proceedure - in order to punish their perceived immorality, and you are going to give the benefit of the doubt. Good for you, but I think you are naive.


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    #39
    greencap
    Registered Users Posts: 2,102 ✭✭✭greencap


    Pelvis wrote: »
    The Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act disagrees with you. If there's a risk to life due to suicide you don't stick them in a padded room and hope they perk up.


    Really? ..... what exactly do you do with suicidal people other than put them in a psych ward.

    Do tell.

    discussion/2058195983/russia-threadbanned-users-in-op/p3135

    😁



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    #40
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Nabber wrote: »
    How old is the girl?

    If sexual inter course was consensual, then why should I be outraged that she is not allowed an abortion?
    .

    Because the LAW in this country allows termination in the case of the mothers life being at risk, including suicide.
    So, it's the law.
    sectioning a young girl so she can't get a termination should be punishable imo


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    #41
    cnocbui
    Registered Users Posts: 19,733 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Yourself isit wrote: »
    Yeh. Does she have a choice?

    Of course she does. She will have finished her Leaving Cert and will be 18. Even were she not, I would always let her decide.


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    #42
    GritBiscuit
    Registered Users Posts: 440 ✭✭GritBiscuit


    Jamiekelly wrote: »
    Whether you mean to take someone's life is the defining principle between murder and manslaughter. If abortion is murder because the pregnant woman wants the child to die then miscarriage is manslaughter by the same definition.

    Wrong on so many levels....for starters, both murder and manslaughter are the unlawful taking of life - a positive action - and the difference between murder and manslaughter is premeditation. There is nothing premeditated about miscarriage, no positive action by the pregnant woman ended her pregnancy and to infer that the deliberate termination of an unwanted pregnancy is a relation to miscarriage is horrible. Please stop.


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    #43
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    cnocbui wrote: »
    This is the country where medical practitioners regularly broke women's pelvises - Symphysiotomy, an incredibly painful proceedure - in order to punish their perceived immorality, and you are going to give the benefit of the doubt. Good for you, but I think you are naive.

    I'm not going to assume every medical professional in this country is cut from the same cloth as those you describe. Psychiatry is not cut and dried, mental health issues can be subjective and you will find different opinions on a patients mental state can differ from one expert to another. Lets not jump on this person and assume they were acting from some personal opinion that abortion is wrong and no one should have one. If there is anything to suggest this person was acting that way I'm happy to jump in there with my pitchfork.


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    #44
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Jamiekelly wrote: »
    I'm wondering why those who advocate "abortion is murder" don't advocate miscarriage being manslaughter under their own definition of fetuses having the same right to life as others.

    Because miscarriage is involuntary. No one has to neglect or do anything wrong for a miscarriage to happen.
    It's like someone just dying. No ones to blame....


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    #45
    cnocbui
    Registered Users Posts: 19,733 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    greencap wrote: »
    Really? ..... what exactly do you do with suicidal people other than put them in a psych ward.

    Do tell.

    You let them have an abortion so they are no-longer suicidal.


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    #46
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,673 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Jamiekelly wrote: »
    Look at the post again without a veil of emotion clouding your judgement of it. I'm not advocating the view that women who have miscarriages should be legally prosecuted. I'm wondering why those who advocate "abortion is murder" don't advocate miscarriage being manslaughter under their own definition of fetuses having the same right to life as others.


    Because they're two completely different circumstances and cannot in any way at all be defined the same way. One can advocate that abortion is murder on it's own, without having to advocate that miscarriage is manslaughter.


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    #47
    Pelvis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,758 ✭✭✭Pelvis


    greencap wrote: »
    Really? ..... what exactly do you do with suicidal people other than put them in a psych ward.

    Do tell.
    No real response so you resort to pedantry? Cool.

    If someone is suicidal because of pregnancy then chances are no matter how long you leave them in a mental health unit they're likely not going to "calm down". The act previously referred to makes provisions for this, so why not invoke it when that's clearly what the girl and her family want?


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    #48
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Because they're two completely different circumstances and cannot in any way at all be defined the same way. One can advocate that abortion is murder on it's own, without having to advocate that miscarriage is manslaughter.

    There have been cases of women who have had miscarriages being arrested and charged despite there being no real evidence that they did anything to induce said miscarriage. Maybe that's what he is referring to.


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    #49
    mahamageehad
    Registered Users Posts: 4,673 ✭✭✭mahamageehad


    eviltwin wrote: »
    There have been cases of women who have had miscarriages being arrested and charged despite there being no real evidence that they did anything to induce said miscarriage. Maybe that's what he is referring to.

    In Ireland? Links?


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    #50
    greencap
    Registered Users Posts: 2,102 ✭✭✭greencap


    Pelvis wrote: »
    No real response so you resort to pedantry? Cool.

    If someone is suicidal because of pregnancy then chances are no matter how long you leave them in a mental health unit they're likely not going to "calm down". The act previously referred to makes provisions for this, so why not invoke it when that's clearly what the girl and her family want?

    Sorry ... what?

    Pedantry?

    I asked you about one of the main issues at hand.

    Where exactly do we put suicidal people.

    You know 'pedantry' isn't just some word you can throw out to invalidate anything that you disagree with.

    Visible curve in the horizon - ehhh.....pedantry, earths flat innit.

    This man was seen in the next town at the time of crime - yeah, well... pedantry, guity isnt he.

    You've invalidated the confidentiality clause - ok yeah maybe I did but hey, pedantry.

    discussion/2058195983/russia-threadbanned-users-in-op/p3135

    😁



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    #51
    y0ssar1an22
    Registered Users Posts: 16,108 ✭✭✭✭y0ssar1an22


    the article doesn't say, but anyone know how far along she was? surly that plays a role in the protection of life during permanency act?

    big difference between 1 month and 7 months pregnant.


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    #52
    neonsofa
    Registered Users Posts: 5,476 ✭✭✭neonsofa


    Jamiekelly wrote: »
    Look at the post again without a veil of emotion clouding your judgement of it. I'm not advocating the view that women who have miscarriages should be legally prosecuted. I'm wondering why those who advocate "abortion is murder" don't advocate miscarriage being manslaughter under their own definition of fetuses having the same right to life as others.

    They don't advocate it because it's ridiculous. I think you are confused by the "right to life" argument. Miscarriage would be akin to cot death, nobody is to blame, it is an unbelievably sad and blameless situation, and the pro life side understand this and that is why they are not trying to argue that point, because it makes no sense whatsoever. Baffling.


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    #53
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,164 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    greencap wrote: »
    Sorry ... what?

    Pedantry?

    I asked you about one of the main issues at hand.

    Where exactly do we put suicidal people.

    You know 'pedantry' isn't just some word you can throw out to invalidate anything that you disagree with.

    Visible curve in the horizon - ehhh.....pedantry, earths flat innit.

    This man was seen in the next town at the time of crime - yeah, well... pedantry, guity isnt he.

    You've invalidated the confidentiality clause - ok yeah maybe I did but hey, pedantry.

    Or perhaps you try to remove the cause of the suicidal thoughts as allowed under law.


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    #54
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    mahamageehad wrote: »
    In Ireland? Links?

    Not Ireland. Two in America and one in Brazil I think.


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    #55
    greencap
    Registered Users Posts: 2,102 ✭✭✭greencap


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    Or perhaps you try to remove the cause of the suicidal thoughts as allowed under law.

    What was the cause of her suicidal thoughts doctor?

    discussion/2058195983/russia-threadbanned-users-in-op/p3135

    😁



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    #56
    Pelvis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,758 ✭✭✭Pelvis


    greencap wrote: »
    Sorry ... what?

    Pedantry?

    I asked you about one of the main issues at hand.

    Where exactly do we put suicidal people.

    You know 'pedantry' isn't just some word you can throw out to invalidate anything that you disagree with.

    Visible curve in the horizon - ehhh.....pedantry, earths flat innit.

    This man was seen in the next town at the time of crime - yeah, well... pedantry, guity isnt he.

    You've invalidated the confidentiality clause - ok yeah maybe I did but hey, pedantry.

    You expressed the view that when a person is mentally unwell that "surgery" should not be performed. I've shown this to be a false. You didn't ask me about "one of the main issues at hand", you completely ignored the point of my response to you and instead focused on an irrelevant aspect of it that didn't address the main issue at hand, that is, you being wrong.


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    #57
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,164 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    greencap wrote: »
    What was the cause of her suicidal thoughts doctor?


    an unwanted pregnancy. is that not clear?


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    #58
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,693 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    an unwanted pregnancy. is that not clear?

    Its not at all clear from the article that yhe pregnancy was the sole cause.


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    #59
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,673 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    y0ssar1an22 wrote: »
    the article doesn't say, but anyone know how far along she was? surly that plays a role in the protection of life during permanency act?

    big difference between 1 month and 7 months pregnant.


    It doesn't, because the POLDPA makes no distinction in the defining the term "the unborn" (with regards to human life) between the time of implantation and birth.

    In terms of whether or not a woman could be granted a termination of her pregnancy, even then having been granted a termination of her pregnancy doesn't mean an abortion.

    The fact that we're talking about a minor here complicates matters even further, but that won't stop some people from using what little they know is alleged to have happened in this case, to promote their own agenda.


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    #60
    retro:electro
    Registered Users Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    Jamiekelly wrote: »
    Look at the post again without a veil of emotion clouding your judgement of it. I'm not advocating the view that women who have miscarriages should be legally prosecuted. I'm wondering why those who advocate "abortion is murder" don't advocate miscarriage being manslaughter under their own definition of fetuses having the same right to life as others.

    You are accusing me of being emotional but isn't that exactly what you're trying to do? You're using a nonsensical analogy to inflame emotion and incite debate. Maybe you should have started with a point that actually made sense instead of saying something stupid that will upset and offend a lot of women who read your post.


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    #61
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,164 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    Its not at all clear from the article that yhe pregnancy was the sole cause.

    it isnt clear that it was the sole cause but it was A cause
    However, it seems the Act was not invoked, despite her having been deemed suicidal as a result of the pregnancy by the first psychiatrist.


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