The GFA and how consent is reached and legislated for

blanch152

jm08 wrote: »

The Council of European disagrees with you:

Promotion of Irish in North ‘blocked by hostile attitudes’

Council of Europe says authorities at Stormont may be in breach of a charter of rights

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/promotion-of-irish-in-north-blocked-by-hostile-attitudes-1.1657285

Not to mention the UN (2009)

And should they be asked, they would equally condemn the failure to protect Ulster Scots, they are not discriminatory which is why a Minority Languages Act solves the problem.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

And should they be asked, they would equally condemn the failure to protect Ulster Scots, they are not discriminatory which is why a Minority Languages Act solves the problem.

There is nobody to blame for the failure to protect Ulster Scots only unionists.

Nobody and no political party has any problem with legislation to protect Ulster Scots.

An Irish Language act was agreed at St Andrews and nobody there offered the 'Ulster Scots as well or nothing' veto. The then DUP leader never mentioned it in his belligerent statement that I linked to earlier.
It is a blatant invention as unionists got pressured on delivering on agreements.
But all you want to do is relieve them of any responsibility and blame those who identify as Irish.

jm08

blanch152 wrote: »

And should they be asked, they would equally condemn the failure to protect Ulster Scots, they are not discriminatory which is why a Minority Languages Act solves the problem.

There is an Ulster-Scots Agency, jointly funded by the Department for Communites in Northern Ireland and the Department of Arts, Heritage, Regional, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs and is responsible to the North/South Ministerial Council. Up to them to lobby for legislation if they want it.

http://www.ulsterscotsagency.com/what-is-ulster-scots/

And this is them looking for funding:
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/how-ulster-scots-money-would-be-spent-halls-bands-highland-dance-art-and-more-1-8115558

FrancieBrady

jm08 wrote: »

There is an Ulster-Scots Agency, jointly funded by the Department for Communites in Northern Ireland and the Department of Arts, Heritage, Regional, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs and is responsible to the North/South Ministerial Council. Up to them to lobby for legislation if they want it.

http://www.ulsterscotsagency.com/what-is-ulster-scots/

And this is them looking for funding:
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/how-ulster-scots-money-would-be-spent-halls-bands-highland-dance-art-and-more-1-8115558

It has little to do about the Language Act anymore but the principle. The constant blocking of legislation that brings normality to politics and life in a failed statelet.
It will continue to fail until the principle is understood by unionism, it is not their fiefdom anymore.
Blanch's and A Little Pony efforts to save their blushes on this will fail simply because it is wrong.

steddyeddy

blanch152 wrote: »

And should they be asked, they would equally condemn the failure to protect Ulster Scots, they are not discriminatory which is why a Minority Languages Act solves the problem.

Ulster Scots isn't a language.

Junkyard Tom

If agreements can't be honored and rights can't be delivered because of DUP/Unionist blocking then it looks like DR might actually be more beneficial in the short term.



Also SF/SDLP/AL/PBP can sit back and blame the DUP/CONs for everything while they're in axis (lack of rights/equality, economic damage from Brexit and so on) .

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It has little to do about the Language Act anymore but the principle. The constant blocking of legislation that brings normality to politics and life in a failed statelet.
It will continue to fail until the principle is understood by unionism, it is not their fiefdom anymore.
Blanch's and A Little Pony efforts to save their blushes on this will fail simply because it is wrong.

Oh I know it has little to do about the Irish Language Act anymore, it is not the principle either, it is all about both communities trying to establish supremacy over the other through getting "wins" rather than compromises such as a Minority Languages Act. I am glad though that at least someone else has seen through the pretence that this is about an ILA.

My biggest fear is that this type of macho standoff by two sectarian parties will be repeated time and again until they learn how to behave as democrats. It is quite frankly laughable that the likes of Sinn Fein are standing on a "principle" about an ILA while all around them the problems of Brexit get worse. They are a bit like Nero, fiddling an Irish language song while all around them, Northern Ireland burns and suffers with Brexit.

Real courage and real leadership would see them compromise to form a government in the North, take their seats in Westminister to stall the May government, and work co-operatively in the South with the other parties. Unfortunately, that would mean abandoning the comfortable ditch they hurl on.

Junkyard Tom

blanch152 wrote: »

It is quite frankly laughable that the likes of Sinn Fein are standing on a "principle" about an ILA while all around them the problems of Brexit get worse. They are a bit like Nero, fiddling an Irish language song while all around them, Northern Ireland burns and suffers with Brexit.

50 of 90 MLA's want a stand alone ILA. Stop pretending this is all SF's fault so you can continue on your bizarre crusade against Republicans/Nationalists.

If you obsessed a little less with sticking it to SF while ignoring that the DUP/UUP are the actual problem you might have come across this:

SDLP standing firmly on demand for ‘stand alone Irish Language Act'

eamonnmallie.com

jm08

blanch152 wrote: »

Oh I know it has little to do about the Irish Language Act anymore, it is not the principle either, it is all about both communities trying to establish supremacy over the other through getting "wins" rather than compromises such as a Minority Languages Act. I am glad though that at least someone else has seen through the pretence that this is about an ILA.

My biggest fear is that this type of macho standoff by two sectarian parties will be repeated time and again until they learn how to behave as democrats. It is quite frankly laughable that the likes of Sinn Fein are standing on a "principle" about an ILA while all around them the problems of Brexit get worse. They are a bit like Nero, fiddling an Irish language song while all around them, Northern Ireland burns and suffers with Brexit.

Real courage and real leadership would see them compromise to form a government in the North, take their seats in Westminister to stall the May government, and work co-operatively in the South with the other parties. Unfortunately, that would mean abandoning the comfortable ditch they hurl on.

Very good article in the Irish Times today explaining the situation. You've got it wrong on Sinn Fein being the driver on this one.

How Arlene Foster helped nationalism find its teeth

DUP leader has hardened nationalist resolve like no unionist first minister before her

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/how-arlene-foster-helped-nationalism-find-its-teeth-1.3208198

munsterlegend

blanch152 wrote: »

Oh I know it has little to do about the Irish Language Act anymore, it is not the principle either, it is all about both communities trying to establish supremacy over the other through getting "wins" rather than compromises such as a Minority Languages Act. I am glad though that at least someone else has seen through the pretence that this is about an ILA.

My biggest fear is that this type of macho standoff by two sectarian parties will be repeated time and again until they learn how to behave as democrats. It is quite frankly laughable that the likes of Sinn Fein are standing on a "principle" about an ILA while all around them the problems of Brexit get worse. They are a bit like Nero, fiddling an Irish language song while all around them, Northern Ireland burns and suffers with Brexit.

Real courage and real leadership would see them compromise to form a government in the North, take their seats in Westminister to stall the May government, and work co-operatively in the South with the other parties. Unfortunately, that would mean abandoning the comfortable ditch they hurl on.

The problem is clear here and that is Unionism continuing to do everything in their power to fail to recognise that nationalism is now their equal. The way they denigrate anything Irish is quite frankly disgraceful such as the likes of Gregory Campbell and others.

Unionism needs to realise the past Stormont dictatorship days are over and the British govt will no longer back their Protestant statelet. Sinn Fein are only reflecting the views of the awakened nationalist electorate and won't back down nor should they. Foster is not capable of advancing matters which represents a big problem. It's hard to believe that Robinson was in fact much more astute to nationalist concerns while she continues her belligerent attitude. She is a failure and as long as she stays matter won't advance.

Junkyard Tom

So what happens if Stormont isn't reconvened? One possible solution that could allow the DUP to 'save face' would be if an ILA and Marriage equality was brought in by Direct Rule. The problem with that though is the DUP are in cahoots with the CONs so could threaten to pull the plug.

blanch152

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

So what happens if Stormont isn't reconvened? One possible solution that could allow the DUP to 'save face' would be if an ILA and Marriage equality was brought in by Direct Rule. The problem with that though is the DUP are in cahoots with the CONs so could threaten to pull the plug.

The DUP could well live with marriage equality being brought in over their head, but the ILA would be vetoed by them.

Junkyard Tom

blanch152 wrote: »

The DUP could well live with marriage equality being brought in over their head,

The largest religious denomination in the DUP is Paisley's Free Presbyterianism - I don't think Marriage Equality would be a given.

but the ILA would be vetoed by them.

Maybe they could have a standalone Ulster Scots Act in parallel?

blanch152

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The largest religious denomination in the DUP is Paisley's Free Presbyterianism - I don't think Marriage Equality would be a given.

They would fight the good fight but you can tell from the body language that there are a lot of them embarrassed by it.

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Maybe they could have a standalone Ulster Scots Act in parallel?

My own personal view is that the whole languages thing North and South is a folly, we should be mature enough as a nation not to need constant reassurance of who we are or clinging on to old heritage.

Leaving that aside, a parallel Act would have to have the same provisions which would be very costly.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

They would fight the good fight but you can tell from the body language that there are a lot of them embarrassed by it.






My own personal view is that the whole languages thing North and South is a folly, we should be mature enough as a nation not to need constant reassurance of who we are or clinging on to old heritage.

Leaving that aside, a parallel Act would have to have the same provisions which would be very costly.

I don't think it is remotely to do with some kind of insecurity tbh.
I would think it is felt that it is imperative to have this protection for the language to survive. Their is no doubt that it would be a tool for the promotion of the language, and that irks some people because of their 'insecurities'. Insecurities that are evident in so many other ways, flags, Irish government involvement etc.
And it may be 'old heritage' to you but it isn't to all.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I don't think it is remotely to do with some kind of insecurity tbh.
I would think it is felt that it is imperative to have this protection for the language to survive. Their is no doubt that it would be a tool for the promotion of the language, and that irks some people because of their 'insecurities'. Insecurities that are evident in so many other ways, flags, Irish government involvement etc.
And it may be 'old heritage' to you but it isn't to all.

There is plenty out there in academia about Ireland and its post-colonial insecurity.

So many of us continually define ourselves as not-Brits by embracing a dead language and a dead culture rather than embracing the English-influenced aspects of our culture right across the arts from literature to music. Being Irish doesn't need a language that nobody speaks.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

There is plenty out there in academia about Ireland and its post-colonial insecurity.

So many of us continually define ourselves as not-Brits by embracing a dead language and a dead culture rather than embracing the English-influenced aspects of our culture right across the arts from literature to music. Being Irish doesn't need a language that nobody speaks.

That' post ^ is fairly typical example of what I see as an inferiority complex among some Irish people.
I see republicans all around me embracing all aspects of our history and heritage. Including those parts influenced by Britain both good and bad.
It would be ridiculous not to as it would not to embrace the language of a lot of that history and heritage.
Look around you at the positives of the language, the growth in Gael Scoilenna which will reap dividends in the near future.
That growth would not have happened had the language not been protected by legislation and rights.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That' post ^ is fairly typical example of what I see as an inferiority complex among some Irish people.
I see republicans all around me embracing all aspects of our history and heritage. Including those parts influenced by Britain both good and bad.
It would be ridiculous not to as it would not to embrace the language of a lot of that history and heritage.
Look around you at the positives of the language, the growth in Gael Scoilenna which will reap dividends in the near future.
That growth would not have happened had the language not been protected by legislation and rights.

Except the language isn't growing, it is dying, kept barely alive.

http://www.cso.ie/en/csolatestnews/presspages/2017/census2016summaryresults-part1/


The population grew by 3.8%

The number of people who could speak Irish fell by 0.7%, decreasing from 41,4% of the population to 39.8%. Given that this figure includes those who can say "An bhfuil cead agam dul go dti an leithreas", that is a very worrying figure for the future of the language.

8,068 Irish language forms were completed in Census 2016 compared with 8,676 in Census 2011.

73,803 said they speak it daily outside the education system, a fall of 3,382 on the 2011 figure. That is a miserable 1.7% of the population. Only 20,586 (27.9%) lived in Gaeltacht areas.

612,018 Irish residents spoke a foreign language at home - Polish probably has more people using it outside the education system than Irish.

What do the figures tell us? Irish is in terminal decline in the Gaeltacht areas and the figures are only maintained by a small number of people in urban areas speaking it at home.

Those are the harsh truths of the census figures and no amounts of waving the green flag and pretending things are different will hide the essential image of a dead language.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Except the language isn't growing, it is dying, kept barely alive.

http://www.cso.ie/en/csolatestnews/presspages/2017/census2016summaryresults-part1/


The population grew by 3.8%

The number of people who could speak Irish fell by 0.7%, decreasing from 41,4% of the population to 39.8%. Given that this figure includes those who can say "An bhfuil cead agam dul go dti an leithreas", that is a very worrying figure for the future of the language.

8,068 Irish language forms were completed in Census 2016 compared with 8,676 in Census 2011.

73,803 said they speak it daily outside the education system, a fall of 3,382 on the 2011 figure. That is a miserable 1.7% of the population. Only 20,586 (27.9%) lived in Gaeltacht areas.

612,018 Irish residents spoke a foreign language at home - Polish probably has more people using it outside the education system than Irish.

What do the figures tell us? Irish is in terminal decline in the Gaeltacht areas and the figures are only maintained by a small number of people in urban areas speaking it at home.

Those are the harsh truths of the census figures and no amounts of waving the green flag and pretending things are different will hide the essential image of a dead language.

All the more reason it should be protected.

What other heritage and historical things would the blanch regime not protect or maintain?

munsterlegend

FrancieBrady wrote: »

All the more reason it should be protected.

What other heritage and historical things would the blanch regime not protect or maintain?

Yes I am sure he has no problem with the money spent on Orange traditions despite it's inherently sectarian basis. That's dying too so the monies should really be stopped asap.

blanch152

munsterlegend wrote: »

Yes I am sure he has no problem with the money spent on Orange traditions despite it's inherently sectarian basis. That's dying too so the monies should really be stopped asap.

I have no problem with money being spent on St. Patrick's Day parades and whatever the other community want as parades.

I don't believe in money spent on either Irish or Ulster Scots, North or South, a complete waste of time, effort and money in my opinion. However, if we do have to have a languages act, it should be a Minority Languages Act to cater for both traditions in a neutral way.

That is a completely non-sectarian point of view.

munsterlegend

blanch152 wrote: »

I have no problem with money being spent on St. Patrick's Day parades and whatever the other community want as parades.

I don't believe in money spent on either Irish or Ulster Scots, North or South, a complete waste of time, effort and money in my opinion. However, if we do have to have a languages act, it should be a Minority Languages Act to cater for both traditions in a neutral way.

That is a completely non-sectarian point of view.

Orange parades are completely sectarian at their basis. How you can compare to St Patricks day is beyond me.

Ulster Scots is a dialect not a language. Anyone who wants the Irish language to not be funded clearly has a deep rooted problem from somewhere. It should be something for all the Island to cherish. We are all Irish after all with different identities.

blanch152

munsterlegend wrote: »

Orange parades are completely sectarian at their basis. How you can compare to St Patricks day is beyond me.

Ulster Scots is a dialect not a language. Anyone who wants the Irish language to not be funded clearly has a deep rooted problem from somewhere. It should be something for all the Island to cherish. We are all Irish after all with different identities.

Funding the Irish language in the context of preserving heritage is fine, funding the Irish language as a living working language is obviously not working as the Census figures clearly demonstrate and is a futile waste of money.

By the way, your statement that we are all Irish is a distinctly sectarian one. We never were all Irish, on this island we have several nations - those who see themselves as Irish, those you see themselves as British, those who see themselves as Northern Irish and those that see themselves as Polish.

The failure to recognise and acknowledge that we Irish don't have a monopoly on this island is probably the greatest cause of division today. Incidentally, there was never a time when this island was united as an Irish nation.

munsterlegend

blanch152 wrote: »

Funding the Irish language in the context of preserving heritage is fine, funding the Irish language as a living working language is obviously not working as the Census figures clearly demonstrate and is a futile waste of money.

By the way, your statement that we are all Irish is a distinctly sectarian one. We never were all Irish, on this island we have several nations - those who see themselves as Irish, those you see themselves as British, those who see themselves as Northern Irish and those that see themselves as Polish.

The failure to recognise and acknowledge that we Irish don't have a monopoly on this island is probably the greatest cause of division today. Incidentally, there was never a time when this island was united as an Irish nation.

I would suggest you look up the definition of sectarian before attaching it to others.

blanch152

munsterlegend wrote: »

I would suggest you look up the definition of sectarian before attaching it to others.

I fully understand sectarian. The problem is few others do, they usually attribute it to others on the opposite side. A neutral like me can recognise that both sides in the North are often sectarian.

Junkyard Tom

blanch152 wrote: »

A neutral like me...

Too funny. I'd describe you as sympathetic to hard-line political unionism. I've very little doubt you were against the Hume-Adams-Reynolds talks and were in line with the DUP when they tried to destroy the GFA just like they did every other rapprochement.

It looks like they've pulled down Stormont now too yet you return to form with your 'both sides' moral equivalence.

You're no George Mitchell.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Funding the Irish language in the context of preserving heritage is fine, funding the Irish language as a living working language is obviously not working as the Census figures clearly demonstrate and is a futile waste of money.

By the way, your statement that we are all Irish is a distinctly sectarian one. We never were all Irish, on this island we have several nations - those who see themselves as Irish, those you see themselves as British, those who see themselves as Northern Irish and those that see themselves as Polish.

The failure to recognise and acknowledge that we Irish don't have a monopoly on this island is probably the greatest cause of division today. Incidentally, there was never a time when this island was united as an Irish nation.

There are all sorts of things indulged in by minorities of people that are hugely important culturally and from a heritage point of view. Classical music, the drama of Shakespeare, ballet etc etc. Would funding be cut to these as well?

Would you propose that these decisions be made on the basis of what one man feels is worthwhile?

blanch152

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Too funny. I'd describe you as sympathetic to hard-line political unionism. I've very little doubt you were against the Hume-Adams-Reynolds talks and were in line with the DUP when they tried to destroy the GFA just like they did every other rapprochement.

It looks like they've pulled down Stormont now too yet you return to form with your 'both sides' moral equivalence.

You're no George Mitchell.

I think Reynolds was a very underestimated Taoiseach, hard done by in the end.

As someone said, the GFA was Sunningdale for slow learners, those slow learners being on both sides of the divide, so why would I have had a problem with it?

Furthermore, the GFA ensured that we gave up our unjustifiable claim on the North, the repeal of Articles 2 and 3 meant we could take a normal place in the world.

jm08

blanch152 wrote: »

The failure to recognise and acknowledge that we Irish don't have a monopoly on this island is probably the greatest cause of division today. Incidentally, there was never a time when this island was united as an Irish nation.

Thats a load of crap anyway. Everyone is allowed to be proud of who they are. It just doesn't work when they are not allowed be that. Its not our (Irish) fault that unionists feel threatened by all things Irish and I don't think we should continually apologise for being Irish or for our culture. I don't think immigrants who come into this country feel threatened by Irish culture.

You come across as someone who knows the cost of everything but the value of nothing.

blanch152

jm08 wrote: »

Thats a load of crap anyway. Everyone is allowed to be proud of who they are. It just doesn't work when they are not allowed be that. Its not our (Irish) fault that unionists feel threatened by all things Irish and I don't think we should continually apologise for being Irish or for our culture. I don't think immigrants who come into this country feel threatened by Irish culture.

You come across as someone who knows the cost of everything but the value of nothing.

Where did I say we shouldn't be proud of being Irish???

All I said is that we should acknowledge that the Irish culture and Irish nation are not the only ones with entitlement to this island. At the end of the day nationhood in the 21st century does not rely on territory no matter how many "republicans" tell you otherwise.