The GFA and how consent is reached and legislated for

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Yes, but you accept that the Irish people get a second go at deciding through a referendum, but you don't accept that the British people get a second go at deciding through a parliamentary vote.

Are you sure you know what you are saying here?
The British people do not get a vote on the unity of Ireland, that is for the people of Ireland to decide without outside impediment.

The British state on behalf of it's people has agreed to give effect to that decision.

A Little Pony

The people of NI vote on any such referendum first and then if it is FOR  it, then it goes to the Irish Republic for the people in the South to vote on it.

FrancieBrady

A Little Pony wrote: »

The people of NI vote on any such referendum first and then if it is FOR  it, then it goes to the Irish Republic for the people in the South to vote on it.

Yes, but the British people as a whole have no say. They have, through their parliament already ratified an agreement to give effect to the decision of the people.

paul2013

Did anyone get a letter from an establishment called "A New Ireland - one Ireland for all" ? As I'm after receiving this in the post and it goes through how their going to send the British people home post BREXIT and create housing stock for the Irish. As a Irish person I feel ashamed of this sh*te coming through my letterbox and its totally against the GFA . I'm going giving this magazine to the Gardai as I find highly offensive to people in Northern Ireland.

armaghlad

paul2013 wrote: »

Did anyone get a letter from an establishment called "A New Ireland - one Ireland for all" ? As I'm after receiving this in the post and it goes through how their going to send the British people home post BREXIT and create housing stock for the Irish. As a Irish person I feel ashamed of this sh*te coming through my letterbox and its totally against the GFA . I'm going giving this magazine to the Gardai as I find highly offensive to people in Northern Ireland.

Do you not find it offensive to people in Ireland in general?

blanch152

paul2013 wrote: »

Did anyone get a letter from an establishment called "A New Ireland - one Ireland for all" ? As I'm after receiving this in the post and it goes through how their going to send the British people home post BREXIT and create housing stock for the Irish. As a Irish person I feel ashamed of this sh*te coming through my letterbox and its totally against the GFA . I'm going giving this magazine to the Gardai as I find highly offensive to people in Northern Ireland.

Thankfully I haven't. I assume it is some Republican offshoot.

paul2013

armaghlad wrote: »

Do you not find it offensive to people in Ireland in general?

No matter what your nationality is I do find it very offensive to everyone who lives on the island of Ireland

paul2013

blanch152 wrote: »

Thankfully I haven't. I assume it is some Republican offshoot.

It's beyond me that we have had 19 years of fragile peace and still some people think it's cool to send sh*te like this in your letter box. If they think this is going to achieve an United Ireland they are living in a different in island of Ireland

blanch152

paul2013 wrote: »

It's beyond me that we have had 19 years of fragile peace and still some people think it's cool to send sh*te like this in your letter box. If they think this is going to achieve an United Ireland they are living in a different in island of Ireland

I think the peace isn't as fragile as you think.

Yes, there are people on both sides (the homophobic unionists and the republicans who darkly mutter about the threat of violence in response to whatever latest slight they perceive, Brexit and an ILA being the latest) who are extremists, but the truth now is that the vast majority of people in Northern Ireland are happy with the status quo and are not looking for major constitutional change, ironically that is one of the reasons they voted against Brexit.

Jim2007

paul2013 wrote: »

It's beyond me that we have had 19 years of fragile peace and still some people think it's cool to send sh*te like this in your letter box. If they think this is going to achieve an United Ireland they are living in a different in island of Ireland

Nineteen years is not fragile, two generations have come of age, there are twenty somethings that don't even remember a time where there was not peace.

The IRA might not have gone away but they are closer to sixty than thirty these days and the youth have other ideas. There was a time when likely young lads would knock on the door wanting to see the revolvers my grand uncle took from the RIC at ambushes during the war of independence, it has not happened in years, the interest is not there.

Jim2007

paul2013 wrote: »

Did anyone get a letter from an establishment called "A New Ireland - one Ireland for all" ? As I'm after receiving this in the post and it goes through how their going to send the British people home post BREXIT and create housing stock for the Irish. As a Irish person I feel ashamed of this sh*te coming through my letterbox and its totally against the GFA . I'm going giving this magazine to the Gardai as I find highly offensive to people in Northern Ireland.

There is nothing very unique about that! We had UKIP suggesting that they'd pay dual citizens £9,000 to leave the country only last week. And at least a couple of times a year I see similar material around the station in Zurich or Basel with some variation of the same idea. One group even suggested the police should create snatch teams the could grab these foreign looking people of the street and ship them out in the dead of night!

Junkyard Tom

paul2013 wrote: »

send the British people home post BREXIT and create housing stock for the Irish.

blanch152 wrote: »

Thankfully I haven't. I assume it is some Republican offshoot.

I've never heard of any Republican advocate/support ethnic cleansing of Protestants/Unionists unlike the DUP.

blanch152

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I've never heard of any Republican advocate/support ethnic cleansing of Protestants/Unionists unlike the DUP.

I think that link of yours is from decades ago. It has little or no relevance to a leaflet we are talking about that appears to have been dropped in the door in the last week or so.

FrancieBrady

paul2013 wrote: »

Did anyone get a letter from an establishment called "A New Ireland - one Ireland for all" ? As I'm after receiving this in the post and it goes through how their going to send the British people home post BREXIT and create housing stock for the Irish. As a Irish person I feel ashamed of this sh*te coming through my letterbox and its totally against the GFA . I'm going giving this magazine to the Gardai as I find highly offensive to people in Northern Ireland.

Are you sure it isn't a spoof mag?

FrancieBrady

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I've never heard of any Republican advocate/support ethnic cleansing of Protestants/Unionists unlike the DUP.

Chilling stuff there Sammy.

Junkyard Tom

blanch152 wrote: »

I think that link of yours is from decades ago. It has little or no relevance to a leaflet we are talking about that appears to have been dropped in the door in the last week or so.

Well the leaflet was essentially about ethnic cleansing so it is relevant and underscores that actual DUP politicians considered actual ethnic cleansing as method of maintaining a Protestant/Unionist majority. I wouldn't be at all surprised if it was unionists who did this leaflet drop to try to capitalise on the Fenian Fear Factor.

blanch152

Moving on from the 30-year old whataboutery, there was an interesting article by Fintan O'Toole during the week:

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-united-ireland-will-not-be-based-on-50-per-cent-plus-one-1.3186234


"To put it bluntly (as no one ever does) southerners have no interest in inheriting a political wreck, or becoming direct participants in a gory sequel, Troubles III: the Orange Strikes Back. They will not vote for a form of unity that merely creates an angry and alienated Protestant minority within a bitterly contested new state."

"In the context of Ireland’s future, 50 per cent + 1 is not, as Adams claims, “what democracy is about”. That kind of crude, tribal majoritarianism is precisely what the Belfast Agreement is meant to finish off. Again, the new article 3 of the Constitution is a good guide: “It is the firm will of the Irish nation, in harmony and friendship, to unite all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland, in all the diversity of their identities and traditions. . .” Harmony, friendship, diversity, multiplicity, a unity not of territory but of people – not: “We beat you by one vote so suck it up and welcome to our nation.” "

Dyr

The first problem with this is that Adams is actually wrong about the formula. It is not 50 per cent + 1 = a united Ireland. It is in fact 2x (50 per cent + 1) = a united Ireland.

Cutting analysis from Tintin there. Adams only negotiated that formula I'm sure he overlooked that salient detail in his dotage.

A Little Pony

blanch152 wrote: »

Moving on from the 30-year old whataboutery, there was an interesting article by Fintan O'Toole during the week:

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-united-ireland-will-not-be-based-on-50-per-cent-plus-one-1.3186234


"To put it bluntly (as no one ever does) southerners have no interest in inheriting a political wreck, or becoming direct participants in a gory sequel, Troubles III: the Orange Strikes Back. They will not vote for a form of unity that merely creates an angry and alienated Protestant minority within a bitterly contested new state."

"In the context of Ireland’s future, 50 per cent + 1 is not, as Adams claims, “what democracy is about”. That kind of crude, tribal majoritarianism is precisely what the Belfast Agreement is meant to finish off. Again, the new article 3 of the Constitution is a good guide: “It is the firm will of the Irish nation, in harmony and friendship, to unite all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland, in all the diversity of their identities and traditions. . .” Harmony, friendship, diversity, multiplicity, a unity not of territory but of people – not: “We beat you by one vote so suck it up and welcome to our nation.” "

Fintan shouldn't ridicule Adams delusions. Let him at it.

blanch152

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/no-stormont-assembly-without-an-irish-language-act-gerry-adams-36084858.html


Three things to take away from this article.

(1) While the rest of the world worries about Brexit, Sinn Fein is hanging tough on an Irish Languages Act

(2) After years of saying that majority rule isn't right for Northern Ireland, the minute the numbers are in their favour, SF want it immediately.

(3) The most sensible solution remains that "there have been suggestions that a broader piece of legislation which includes provisions for Ulster Scots speakers could achieve cross-community backing."

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/no-stormont-assembly-without-an-irish-language-act-gerry-adams-36084858.html


Three things to take away from this article.

(1) While the rest of the world worries about Brexit, Sinn Fein is hanging tough on an Irish Languages Act

(2) After years of saying that majority rule isn't right for Northern Ireland, the minute the numbers are in their favour, SF want it immediately.

(3) The most sensible solution remains that "there have been suggestions that a broader piece of legislation which includes provisions for Ulster Scots speakers could achieve cross-community backing."

Should all political parties just throw their principles out the window so Unionists can feel comfortable in the remnants of their failed state?

Because that is what you want here and the northern electorate that voted in ever bigger numbers for SF clearly do NOT want them to do.


*Brexit happened anyway, despite what that same party and it's voters wanted. So I don't know what your point is there.

A Little Pony

blanch152 wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/no-stormont-assembly-without-an-irish-language-act-gerry-adams-36084858.html


Three things to take away from this article.

(1) While the rest of the world worries about Brexit, Sinn Fein is hanging tough on an Irish Languages Act

(2) After years of saying that majority rule isn't right for Northern Ireland, the minute the numbers are in their favour, SF want it immediately.

(3) The most sensible solution remains that "there have been suggestions that a broader piece of legislation which includes provisions for Ulster Scots speakers could achieve cross-community backing."

It's more important to them than health or the economy. But they won't be getting it anyway.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Should all political parties just throw their principles out the window so Unionists can feel comfortable in the remnants of their failed state?

Because that is what you want here and the northern electorate that voted in ever bigger numbers for SF clearly do NOT want them to do.


*Brexit happened anyway, despite what that same party and it's voters wanted. So I don't know what your point is there.

No, I want those who claim to be leading the peace process to demonstrate their cross-community principles rather than pandering to their sectarian followers.

And, by the way, that applies to both the DUP and SF across a large range of issues. In this particular case - Irish Language Act - it is up to Sinn Fein to demonstrate magnaminity and statesmanlike behaviour. As expected, it is beyond them.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

No, I want those who claim to be leading the peace process to demonstrate their cross-community principles rather than pandering to their sectarian followers.

And, by the way, that applies to both the DUP and SF across a large range of issues. In this particular case - Irish Language Act - it is up to Sinn Fein to demonstrate magnaminity and statesmanlike behaviour. As expected, it is beyond them.

Wanting the same language rights as every where else on these islands is sectarian?? Good man blanch, just how far into ridiculousness will you go to make it republicans/nationalists fault while pretending to equally blame the party that is blocking a myriad of normal rights?
If you think that the sticking point is sectarian based you haven't a clue about what has gone on since the GFA. Which is par for the course with those who stupidly thought it was a final solution. It wasnt , it was always meant to a process which would include the recognition of the Irish Language in a standalone act.
Everyone knew that. The DUP simply welched on it.
*Arlene is buckling under anyway so your worries might soon be over. Or Arlene is kicking to touch so she can get comfy with Theresa.

A Little Pony

The DUP is being kinder on the issue than I would be. I'd just say no it isn't happening and frankly don't care if the assembly isn't ever back. Keep it down, it was useless anyway and was the worst form of government in Europe.

jm08

This didn't get much publicity in this part of Ireland:

Lord Kilclooney says nationalists 'are not equal' to unionists


https://www.irishnews.com/news/2017/08/31/news/lord-kilclooney-says-nationalists-are-not-equal-to-unionists-1124541/

FrancieBrady

A Little Pony wrote: »

The DUP is being kinder on the issue than I would be. I'd just say no it isn't happening and frankly don't care if the assembly isn't ever back. Keep it down, it was useless anyway and was the worst form of government in Europe.

The DUP are climbing down. Remains to be seen if they have accepted that they cannot be culturally suprematist or religiously bigoted.

jm08

A Little Pony wrote: »

The DUP is being kinder on the issue than I would be. I'd just say no it isn't happening and frankly don't care if the assembly isn't ever back. Keep it down, it was useless anyway and was the worst form of government in Europe.

The DUP kind! Thats a good one. There is a reason why Stormont is set up the way it is and in fairness, it has meant mostly peace in NI.

A Little Pony

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

The DUP is being kinder on the issue than I would be. I'd just say no it isn't happening and frankly don't care if the assembly isn't ever back. Keep it down, it was useless anyway and was the worst form of government in Europe.

The DUP are climbing down. Remains to be seen if they have accepted that they cannot be culturally suprematist or religiously bigoted.

The DUP hasn't climbed down, I didn't see any such climb down in her speech. The former Mayor of Belfast from Sinn Fein was saying the argument has been won within broader Unionist opinion for an Irish language act. I don't know how he has come to that conclusion or who he has spoken to, but it is most certainly bollocks.

I don't know why Sinn Fein think Unionist people are idiots to think we believe such tripe.

A Little Pony

jm08 wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

The DUP is being kinder on the issue than I would be. I'd just say no it isn't happening and frankly don't care if the assembly isn't ever back. Keep it down, it was useless anyway and was the worst form of government in Europe.

The DUP kind! Thats a good one. There is a reason why Stormont is set up the way it is and in fairness, it has meant mostly peace in NI.

The irony being that if the horrific petition of concern didn't exist gay marriage would be implemented and a language act would probably stand a better chance.