Should I get whey protein?

Daledge

So I'm starting back into the gym this evening, been a long time coming as I'm currently a little over weight. I'm certainly not obese but I have got a belly. I don't have any specific goals with regards a certain weight etc. but essentially I just want to get into better shape.

My main goal is to just tone up, I'll be doing a lot of cardio/core work as well as a decent amount of swimming hopefully. I'll do a touch lifting but nothing too crazy.

I'm just wondering if protein would even help in this scenario seeing as though I won't be doing TOO much heavy lifting, mostly weight loss. However I'm a devil for eating after the gym, my thoughts are that the protein might help me cut this out? I will be aiming to improve my diet as it's terrible at the moment.

I haven't been this motivated to get into shape in years so I really want to keep the momentum going.

Any advice on the protein/weight loss in general would be really appreciated.

eoinzy2000

Don't need protein. Get rid of the sugar and sh1te out of the diet. Eat healthy and get regular training. When you get to the stage that fitness is up and looking to fine tune diet for muscle gains/cardio gains etc., then POSSIBLY consider it. You can alter your diet to include all the proteins you need, without supplements.  There is no quick fix supplement to help. Its all about personal discipline really.

CPTM

You probably don't need it if you're maintaining a fairly healthy diet OP. Build strength in the gym and lose weight in the kitchen. Unless you're going through a tough weight training programme, you're probably getting all the nutrients you need in your standard meals.

Try to cut back on drinking alcohol, sugar, large meals late at night and you should start seeing results with a solid training regime. Sugar is the main one (because it's everywhere), and don't worry too much about fat content.

If I were you, I'd leave the supplements and spend the saved euros on really nice healthy food, going for the more expensive items in the supermarket (Organic/Free Range) to make eating healthy that little bit more enjoyable.

I'd say no.
I'd also say if you know you're going to snack after you could bring some chicken in a lunchbox and eat it straight after the gym to help curb the snacking

Brian?

eoinzy2000 wrote: »

Don't need protein supplements Get rid of the sugar and sh1te out of the diet. Eat healthy and get regular training. When you get to the stage that fitness is up and looking to fine tune diet for muscle gains/cardio gains etc., then POSSIBLY consider it. You can alter your diet to include all the proteins you need, without supplements.  There is no quick fix supplement to help. Its all about personal discipline really.

Fixed your post.

OP, whey is to supplement your diet. Work on fixing your diet first, if you can't get enough protein in from food then you can add whey.

Daledge

Thanks all. I kinda had a feeling it wasn't the best shout but no harm in asking.

rondog

Agree with the above but ive always found its quite handy to have whey around.When theres nothing to eat and instead of resorting to junk its quite handy and healthy to have a quick protein shake rather than snacking on crap which is easily done.
Also,if there is no time for breakfast I always mix up a  shake and it feeds my body well and keep me going until breakfast.I buy just a regular tub of kinetica and it gets me through 6-8 weeks.
Previously ,if there was nothing around id always snack on rubbish and mess up the diet a little but with the shake  it fills me up and is good for the diet plus I love the Kietica chocolate protein shakes anyway.

ironclaw

I did a mildly scientific study over the course of 6 months. I had a pretty stable diet and I trained between 5km and 10km, 5 to 6 days per week, purely running both tarmac and trail. Granted, I was running over 3 years before I went into this so I was 'conditioned' somewhat.

Reflecting, protein made very little difference. The only upside was that I would recover faster and been a little less sore overall. Muscle mass and tone did increase however. I repeated the same experiment with creatine in the mix. No difference expect in my sprints, as expected.

Overall, from the reading I did, protein is only of value in high performance regimes as a recovery drink or supplement after a harder day.

Alf Veedersane

ironclaw wrote: »

I did a mildly scientific study over the course of 6 months. I had a pretty stable diet and I trained between 5km and 10km, 5 to 6 days per week, purely running both tarmac and trail. Granted, I was running over 3 years before I went into this so I was 'conditioned' somewhat.

Reflecting, protein made very little difference. The only upside was that I would recover faster and been a little less sore overall. Muscle mass and tone did increase however. I repeated the same experiment with creatine in the mix. No difference expect in my sprints, as expected.

Overall, from the reading I did, protein is only of value in high performance regimes as a recovery drink or supplement after a harder day.

What did you expect to get from protein, as a runner, other than recovery?

SozBbz

Quick question for those of you who are protien users.

I don't use it currently, but am training 3/4 times a week, mostly including weights and one HiiT session at the weekend.

My main goal is weightloss which is why I havent used protein to date as I just view it as extra calories. Am I right in this thinking? I'm not trying to build visable muscles, I want to become more lean. I do try to include high protien food in my diet, however watching my calories has been my main objective. I eat a fair few eggs, lean meat and high protien/low fat natural youhuts (think fage 0%).

For weightloss, am I best to keep going as I am?

Alf Veedersane

SozBbz wrote: »

Quick question for those of you who are protien users.

I don't use it currently, but am training 3/4 times a week, mostly including weights and one HiiT session at the weekend.

My main goal is weightloss which is why I havent used protein to date as I just view it as extra calories. Am I right in this thinking? I'm not trying to build visable muscles, I want to become more lean. I do try to include high protien food in my diet, however watching my calories has been my main objective. I eat a fair few eggs, lean meat and high protien/low fat natural youhuts (think fage 0%).

For weightloss, am I best to keep going as I am?

If you're getting enough protein to maintain muscle or at least minimise muscle loss, then keep going as you are.

SozBbz

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

If you're getting enough protein to maintain muscle or at least minimise muscle loss, then keep going as you are.

Em, silly question alert but how do I know this?

Alf Veedersane

SozBbz wrote: »

Em, silly question alert but how do I know this?

If you use MyFitnessPal to track your food intake a bit or even just it to input the majority of food (though you will need weights of the food eaten) you can get a feel for how much you need. The upper limit of what you 'need' is 0.82g/lb so if you weighed 100 lbs you should be getting up to 82g of protein.

SozBbz

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

If you use MyFitnessPal to track your food intake a bit or even just it to input the majority of food (though you will need weights of the food eaten) you can get a feel for how much you need. The upper limit of what you 'need' is 0.82g/lb so if you weighed 100 lbs you should be getting up to 82g of protein.

OK, I've not been very good at tracking with MFP to date, but I'll have another go at it.

I'd say I eat some protien at everymeal though and am always on the look out for ways to sneak a little extra into my diet wtihout doing anything too high in calories.

In the past few months I've switched out my regular low fat milk to protien milk. The only real snack that I keep in the house are light babybells (contraverail probably) but they're 6g of protien and only 50calories and they keep my paws away from other things. Other than that I either have my high protein yogurt (overnight oats usually) or 2 eggs for breakfast. Usually a chicken fillet or a turkey burger for lunch, and sometimes an egg with that too. Then lean meat/fish in my dinner. I buy a lot of the Dublin Meat Co. Fit Foods range now, so I am consciously eating good quality protien more than I used to.

If I were to buy a little bit to add to my overnight oats persay, it that too late if I've trained the night before? Do I need to take the protien within a certain time of doing exercise?

Alf Veedersane

Protein timing isn't that important, for the majority of people.

Once you're doing as you are and getting a decent level of protein in at each meal, then you're golden.

SozBbz

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Protein timing isn't that important, for the majority of people.

Once you're doing as you are and getting a decent level of protein in at each meal, then you're golden.

Oh good!

I'd prefer to keep it to real foods if I can!

ironclaw

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

What did you expect to get from protein, as a runner, other than recovery?

Well, it was exactly as I was expecting. Just its a common question in forums, did my homework and said I'd be a little scientific about it. Just sharing my 'real world result' as it were

Alf Veedersane

ironclaw wrote: »

Well, it was exactly as I was expecting. Just its a common question in forums, did my homework and said I'd be a little scientific about it. Just sharing my 'real world result' as it were

Fairy nuff.

There's a large enough cohort that think protein powder is magical muscle dust.

But without the resistance training and right calorie balance, you won't build much muscle.

And it's still just food.

Brian?

SozBbz wrote: »

Quick question for those of you who are protien users.

Pendantic note: the only people who are not "protein users" are dead.

Protein is a macronutrient, whey protein is a supplement.

I don't use it currently, but am training 3/4 times a week, mostly including weights and one HiiT session at the weekend.

My main goal is weightloss which is why I havent used protein to date as I just view it as extra calories. Am I right in this thinking? I'm not trying to build visable muscles, I want to become more lean. I do try to include high protien food in my diet, however watching my calories has been my main objective. I eat a fair few eggs, lean meat and high protien/low fat natural youhuts (think fage 0%).

For weightloss, am I best to keep going as I am?

You need to log your diet and work out your macronutrient ratios. Only then can you answer this question.

In general protein comes in delicious forms, like eggs and fish, so I don't bother with whey supplements. But then sometimes I do.

Brian?

SozBbz wrote: »

Oh good!

I'd prefer to keep it to real foods if I can!

Don't view whey as anything other than food. That's really what it is.

It's the main ingredient in baby formula. It's in all sorts of things from cakes to the flavour coating on crisps. It's processed food.

If anyone is happy to eat easy singles, whey isn't really that different. Easy singles are processed casein from milk and whey is processed whey from milk.

I hate easy singles.

Alf Veedersane

Brian? wrote: »

I hate easy singles.

I have a love/hate relationship with them from the days of toasties from the ol' Breville toastie maker.

They were a 'luxury' and scarce, so you liked them, but you put the life of your lips, tongue and face in danger when you bit in and freed the lava-like molten easy-single.

SozBbz

Brian? wrote: »

Don't view whey as anything other than food. That's really what it is.

It's the main ingredient in baby formula. It's in all sorts of things from cakes to the flavour coating on crisps. It's processed food.

If anyone is happy to eat easy singles, whey isn't really that different. Easy singles are processed casein from milk and whey is processed whey from milk.

I hate easy singles.

When I (and a lot of people) say real food, I mean unprocessed food. I know processed food is also real food, I've seen it in Tescos and other well known supermarkets, I'm confident it exists. But all the same, I'm trying not to eat it, but would still consider protein supplements if there was a good reason for me to be taking it and if it wouldnt be counter to my weightloss objective.

Brian? wrote: »

Pendantic note: the only people who are not "protein users" are dead.

Protein is a macronutrient, whey protein is a supplement.

Counter Pedantic note: Theres more than just whey protein available as a suplement, and I didnt wish to limit my query to whey. I think from what I posted (about all the sources of protein in my existing diet) its clear that I know I already eat protein. If I were to take protein as a suplement I would probably get this one.

ironclaw

@SozBbz, interestingly you mentioned other whey based supplements. I repeat the same experiment I ran using two different Kinetica products. First was their slow release and the other, not at the same time, was their Thermo brand. Over the course of 3 to 6 months on each, couldn't tell any difference between them from a running perspective.

SozBbz

ironclaw wrote: »

@SozBbz, interestingly you mentioned other whey based supplements. I repeat the same experiment I ran using two different Kinetica products. First was their slow release and the other, not at the same time, was their Thermo brand. Over the course of 3 to 6 months on each, couldn't tell any difference between them from a running perspective.

Well I won't be running (worst runner ever), I'm just conscious of it because I'm lifting weights. I'm aware I could be falling into the trap of just buying something just because I percieve it to be healthy (if I buy any protein suplement at all) but I don't think I'd be using huge volumes of it regardless, so I don't mind paying a bit more for the vegan product.

Also I think this mirrors my own real diet anyway - I do try to eat vegan/vegetarian meals on a regular enough basis, I love this recipie for example

Alf Veedersane

The different types of protein (whey, casein, isolate, etc) will mean very little for the vast majority.

The supplement companies will pitch the need for all of them though.

Brian?

SozBbz wrote: »

When I (and a lot of people) say real food, I mean unprocessed food. I know processed food is also real food, I've seen it in Tescos and other well known supermarkets, I'm confident it exists. But all the same, I'm trying not to eat it, but would still consider protein supplements if there was a good reason for me to be taking it and if it wouldnt be counter to my weightloss objective.

Grand. There is a misconception out there that whey is something other than food. People often using language for for whey as if it's a drug or some such. I just wanted to put it out there that it's just grub. It's relatively healthy grub for processed grub.

Counter Pedantic note: Theres more than just whey protein available as a suplement, and I didnt wish to limit my query to whey. I think from what I posted (about all the sources of protein in my existing diet) its clear that I know I already eat protein. If I were to take protein as a suplement I would probably get this one.

Cool. We're aligned.

Brian?

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

The different types of protein (whey, casein, isolate, etc) will mean very little for the vast majority.

The supplement companies will pitch the need for all of them though.

It genuinely upsets me when I see casein for sale. That could have been cheese.

Aidia

Hi Folks, was going to start a new thread about whey protein but figured I might as well just put it in here! I've starting running and run 5k on a treadmill approx 3-4 times a week followed by various weights. I'm still a newbie to this running thing so am looking for ways for my body to recover after a run as quick as possible. I got some samples or whey protein to try and they do seem to be helping my body as not as stiff/sore as I'd normally be. Can I ask though when do you normally take it as I usually just take it straight after my workout has finished.

Also while losing weight would be a bonus, this is not the reason I'm running so am not looking to totally change my diet and just looking for hints and tips when it comes to using whey!

ironclaw

@Aidia, its generally accepted, at least in my research formally and from myself, that you should be aiming to get protein into you as fast as possible after your workout e.g. Within 30 mins. This is normally fast acting protein, slow acting proteins e.g. Casein are only generally taken during sleep periods e.g. Last thing before bed.

You shouldn't take protein during a workout. I would however recommend some BCCA blends like Xtend and Kinetica have a new product on the market, both of which I found beneficial during heavy cardio and empirically, I could certainly push a lot harder with them on board e.g. ~30 mins before, during and finish during the work out.

Lastly, as I'm sure you aware, heavy cardio and weight lifting are counter intuitive without strict adherence to diet and program. You can't build mass and cut at the same time without a regime to suit.

Brian?

Aidia wrote: »

Hi Folks, was going to start a new thread about whey protein but figured I might as well just put it in here! I've starting running and run 5k on a treadmill approx 3-4 times a week followed by various weights. I'm still a newbie to this running thing so am looking for ways for my body to recover after a run as quick as possible. I got some samples or whey protein to try and they do seem to be helping my body as not as stiff/sore as I'd normally be. Can I ask though when do you normally take it as I usually just take it straight after my workout has finished.

Also while losing weight would be a bonus, this is not the reason I'm running so am not looking to totally change my diet and just looking for hints and tips when it comes to using whey!

I wouldn't overcomplicate it. Have a protein shake after the gym with some simple carbs.

Zillah

Whenever people talk about whey as if it was something from a factory I remind them about Little Miss Muffet.

Dtp1979

ironclaw wrote: »

@Aidia, its generally accepted, at least in my research formally and from myself, that you should be aiming to get protein into you as fast as possible after your workout e.g. Within 30 mins. This is normally fast acting protein, slow acting proteins e.g. Casein are only generally taken during sleep periods e.g. Last thing before bed.

You shouldn't take protein during a workout. I would however recommend some BCCA blends like Xtend and Kinetica have a new product on the market, both of which I found beneficial during heavy cardio and empirically, I could certainly push a lot harder with them on board e.g. ~30 mins before, during and finish during the work out.

Lastly, as I'm sure you aware, heavy cardio and weight lifting are counter intuitive without strict adherence to diet and program. You can't build mass and cut at the same time without a regime to suit.

Why take protein with the first 30 mins? I thought that myth was done away with years ago

Alf Veedersane

You don't really need to get too bogged down in the timing, per se. It will still be valid 2 hours after the run so you don't need to panic if it's been 31 minutes since your run and you haven't ingested protein.

It it's convenient, you can have a shake after your run. If it isn't, have it the next time it is convenient.

And some simple carbs. Doesn't have to be much.

Alf Veedersane

ironclaw wrote: »

You shouldn't take protein during a workout.

Why?

Zillah

ironclaw wrote: »

You shouldn't take protein during a workout.

Why not?

I would however recommend some BCCA blends like Xtend and Kinetica have a new product on the market, both of which I found beneficial during heavy cardio and empirically, I could certainly push a lot harder with them on board

Sounds like a placebo to me. Your energy systems are mostly influenced by sugars, other carbs, oxygen levels, and stimulants like caffeine, etc. Amino acids don't really come into it.

Funny that you would tell them to avoid protein during workout but recommend amino acids (which is what protein is made of).

Please do correct me if I am wrong but you seem to be labouring under a lot of bro-science popular myths.

Dtp1979

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Why?

Because the anabolic window hasn't opened yet so in fact your muscles will shrink

Zillah

If you open the anabolic window too early all of the gains will escape.

Mr. CooL ICE

And you'd deserve a right anabolicking

Macy0161

ironclaw wrote: »

This is normally fast acting protein, slow acting proteins e.g. Casein are only generally taken during sleep periods e.g. Last thing before bed.

There was a recent sigma nutrition podcast that had a (Dutch?) researcher on whose studies supported taking protein before bed, but found it didn't matter what type of protein it was. i.e. there was no difference between casein and whey.

Alf Veedersane

Macy0161 wrote: »

There was a recent sigma nutrition podcast that had a (Dutch?) researcher on who's studies supported taking protein before bed, but found it didn't matter what type of protein it was. i.e. there was no difference between casein and whey.

Jorn Trommelen.

Taking it before bed is in keeping with the idea that you get a decent amount of protein at every meal and before a 6/7/8 hour window of sleep, it makes sense to get protein on board.

But yeah, they tried adding leucine to casein to mimic a fast digesting protein and there was no difference versus casein.

LincolnHawk

The whole absorbtion window of opportunity thing is total and utter horse sh1te.

Mellor

The anabolic window is broscience's 101.

There's nothing wrong with protein during (or before) a workout. BCAA's are essential protein broken down.

Supplementing with protein for 3months and seeing how it affects your recovery is a pretty weak as a test. Your diet contributes much more protein than the supplement.

BadBannana

ironclaw wrote: »

@Aidia, its generally accepted, at least in my research formally and from myself, that you should be aiming to get protein into you as fast as possible after your workout e.g. Within 30 mins. This is normally fast acting protein, slow acting proteins e.g. Casein are only generally taken during sleep periods e.g. Last thing before bed.

You shouldn't take protein during a workout. I would however recommend some BCCA blends like Xtend and Kinetica have a new product on the market, both of which I found beneficial during heavy cardio and empirically, I could certainly push a lot harder with them on board e.g. ~30 mins before, during and finish during the work out.

Lastly, as I'm sure you aware, heavy cardio and weight lifting are counter intuitive without strict adherence to diet and program. You can't build mass and cut at the same time without a regime to suit.

Which research are you referring to there mate?

The anabolic/metabolic window exists but it's as long as up to 24h not 30 minutes

https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1550-2783-10-53

ironclaw

BadBannana wrote: »

Which research are you referring to there mate?

The anabolic/metabolic window exists but it's as long as up to 24h not 30 minutes

https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1550-2783-10-53

Gonna put the hands up here and say I can't find the articles I researched at the time (About 2 years ago now) but I believe it came off the back of a study for indoor running at a world championship level. I've since lowered my running distance owning to a knee injury but this thread has given me the kick to go and read up on the more recent trends. Thanks folks.

Mellor

BadBannana wrote: »

Which research are you referring to there mate?

The anabolic/metabolic window exists but it's as long as up to 24h not 30 minutes

https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1550-2783-10-53

From the conclusion;

However, an expanded regression analysis found that any positive effects associated with protein timing on muscle protein accretion disappeared after controlling for covariates. Moreover, sub-analysis showed that discrepancies in total protein intake explained the majority of hypertrophic differences noted in timing studies. When taken together, these results would seem to refute the commonly held belief that the timing of protein intake in the immediate pre- and post-workout period is critical to muscular adaptations [3, 4, 5].

Perceived hypertrophic benefits seen in timing studies appear to be the result of an increased consumption of protein as opposed to temporal factors. In our reduced model, the amount of protein consumed was highly and significantly associated with hypertrophic gains.

mart_in

I was wondering myself, take proteins or not... For years I've been working 7 days per week, long hours... I got really overweight. Obviously, I tried to go back to the gym but it's difficult when after years of negligence you try to force your body to do something.

So I decided to cheat a bit with supplements. Proteins and fat burners mostly. And pre workout. Mostly for energy and better recovery. You can imagine my cardio was sh*t...

I didn't go after any of the big brands but got stuff from little known company that was recommended to me. Mostly because of the taste of their products (well, most brands don't really give a damn sh*t about taste). It was a month ago and I'm still workig out. I lost 3kg in 2 weeks and my cardio improved.

Obviously, it's not only about supplements. But they help... or maybe I cheated my brain to think so

Aidia

Thanks to everyone that replied (and apologies if it caused a few discussions!). I take a whey protein shake pretty much once I've done my workout so although it's up in the air about the 30 minutes following your workout, I'm walking home anyway at that time so easy to take.

Also I know some people will say running followed by weights is the wrong combination but honestly I do the running cos it clears my mind and the weights cos it tires my body out. I'm not in it for weight loss/muscle gain or anything like that - I just find this combination tires me out and after a stressful day at work, it's either this or fall back into the bad habit of  opening a bottle of wine and I know which one I'd prefer to stick with! :D