BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

dublinman1990

Does anyone know what date in December is going to be used for the rollout of the Southern Orbitals this year? Will it be happening before Christmas or near the start of the new year?

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119370734#Comment_119370734

No not really. Extremely wealthy parts of lucan were doing the same even after the C routes were running, same on the leafy Howth Road when H started. Actually wealthy areas are even more hassle for PT projects because they tend to know judges, TDs and other powerful people. Was it not the rich that got the whole South half of metrolink scrapped? Is it not wealthy people keeping the sandymount strand cycleway tied up in the courts?

Your post is a poor bash for the sake a poor bash, very old school British colonial attitude. You should see how warmly luas finglas is being welcomed by the dreaded working class.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119370734#Comment_119370734

It’s not really surprising though, as let’s be honest, daytime off-peak usage of the likes of the 79/a in areas like Lower Ballyfermot would be higher than the 66a might have been out of River Forest. The key for River Forest residents would have been retaining direct services to/from the city at peak times, while many in Lower Ballyfermot would be using the bus to get to the local shops.

As we get older, we do generally become more resistant to change, as is human nature, and pushback is far more likely from older people who use the services, and that’s borne out in Dodsboro where they lost the 25.

That being said, those in working class areas may be more susceptible to the suggestion that they are losing out and having public services removed by some left wing party agitation. Some of the original Jarrett Walker ideas walked straight into that trap.

But even when the final plan was published, I certainly would have had qualms about replacing four buses an hour with one through the likes of Lower Ballyfermot. Probably not the wisest approach. I’d have gone with every 30 minutes. The same may follow with other routes through areas with an older demographic.

As to lack of awareness of the ongoing network changes, well people here are aware of it as they have an interest, and the politicians will be aware, but the vast majority of people will have forgotten about the previous consultations back in 2018 and 2020. It is only when the reality of the changes taking place hits them, that most people will react. Most people don’t follow this at all, other than when it directly affects them.

That’s why local politicians being involved in the process is so important as they are most likely to influence changes at the consultation stage.

In this case SF and far left politicians are exploiting the situation for their own electoral benefit and spinning it to their own ends.

But it shouldn’t be a surprise at all, as the same parties did exactly the same thing during Network Direct when Dublin Bus tried to merge the 27b and 79. There were protest meetings and a protest at Aston Quay terminus then too. But I’m not sure that certain people in the NTA were keen on taking on board advice from Dublin Bus during this process.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119370869#Comment_119370869

I don’t think there was any particular issue with the H Spine as it didn’t involve removing services from anywhere.

The C Spine completely removed buses to the city outside of peak periods from more mature areas of Lucan like Dodsboro as the roads weren’t in place to deliver the planned route for the C2 thus depriving a lot of people of a proper bus service.

Going from Dodsboro they could plan around the L51 and L52, but coming back they’re dependent on a connection into a combined half-hourly service which makes using the bus far less attractive.

Getting the connections right, and explaining them to people is vital for this project. They got that badly wrong on the C Spine with dreadful timetabling that means the local buses miss connections with spine routes by minutes.

Incidentally to the previous poster, Catherine Murphy of the Soc Dems has been very vocal in her criticisms of the NTA when it comes to the revised network in Leixlip, and is on the record as saying that they just won’t listen to the complaints.

Being able to change services quickly where mistakes are glaringly apparent is important. That bit is the bit that the NTA haven’t grasped yet.

Getting connections right, and explaining them clearly (not telling people to use a journey planner, but scheduling them properly). Removing and still not replacing the morning outbound and evening inbound 66b buses to/from Hewlett Packard in Leixlip is an example. These were full every day. The N4 running times are clearly too slow but nothing has changed.

There is an element of “we know best” in there that still needs to be weeded out. They certainly need more people with operational experience of day to day public transport in senior positions.

AngryLips

What's the average months of delays for each spine and what will that mean for final the completion date of the network re-design? Will they be upgrading the spines to Luas by the time it's all done and dusted?

LXFlyer

Three phases were funded for launch in 2022 and that is still the plan. Last phase is still in late 2024.

Let’s be honest who can answer the rest of it. There’s a widespread shortage of labour right now and ongoing Covid waves will continue to cause serious problems if self-isolation requirements continue.

Anne Graham did hint at the Oireachtas Committee that perhaps they may have to reduce some of the proposed frequencies if the companies cannot recruit the staff.

cgcsb

I would have went with a big bang change over during lockdown when few people were using the bus, but we are where we are. With the staff shortages the delay can't really be helped

Spanish Eyes

Apologies, I am probably jumping in without reading all the information provided. But one thing encouraged me to post - the proposal that buses use Le Fanu Road instead of the main road. Presumably (looking at maps) the bus would turn on or off Kylemore Road at the Colleges and continue the route from there.

I wonder could cars only be routed that way, and leave the buses on the existing route? Just thinking out loud.

Also, I noticed that the Liffey Valley bus hub is nearly ready for action. Anyone know how passengers will connect from the C spines that go up and down the N4? Hope it's not a long walk!

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119370869#Comment_119370869

Yeah but that's all to do with infrastructure changes and NIMBYism when it comes to changing the actual routes themselves it's the working class areas that kick up the most fuss as their misinformed by the likes of Sinn Fein and PBP.

The rich are anti public transport full stop and the poor think any changes to public transport are anti poor. I get the impression in some of the wealthy areas they don't really want public transport in their area. Whereas poor areas want to step outside their front door and be able to catch a bus even if they live in a narrow little council estate full of illegal parking.

Prime example Palermo Estate in Bray gets 4 buses an hour going through it but the estate is so tight that a bus can barely fit and illegal parking is rife completely unsuitable for a bus service operating but yet if they dare tried to remove the bus service and make the 185 the more direct route to Enniskerry there'd be a public outcry from the residents.

When Go-Ahead first took over this service there were multiple complaints by local residents about buses doing damage to cars which is inevitable given how tight the estate is.

john boye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119372123#Comment_119372123

But there would have been nowhere near enough drivers during lockdown to do it all then either.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119372123#Comment_119372123

We have gone through that before.

It was a complete non-runner.

There simply weren’t the resources available to do it, be they sufficient specialist scheduling staff to plan it, and sufficient drivers, buses and more importantly the government funding to actually deliver it.

The level of behind the scenes work needed to deliver a revised network is very significant and neither the bus companies nor the NTA have them to deliver a “Big Bang”.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119372450#Comment_119372450

Just operate a reduced frequency on the new routes, with covid as the excuse for the lower frequency, then go about recruitment and bulke the service up over 2 or 3 years

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119372185#Comment_119372185

It’s only the hourly route 60 that will use Le Fanu Road. The G1 & G2 will stick to the Ballyfermot Road.

As for Liffey Valley, access to/from the N4 stops for now will be via the existing ramps and footbridge.

The C-Spine stops will be relocated further west as part of the Lucan Road N4 core bus corridor scheme and a new footbridge added across the N4 more or less adjacent to the new terminus.

bikeman1

In other positive news.

I cycled past two very well patronised N4's at 17:30 on Wednesday. At least 30+ pax on board from what I could make out. Great to see.

A few weeks ago before the primary schools finished up, I passed an N4 with plenty of school kids on it. Hopefully they are kids that were previously driven to school as there was no alternative and now they are being brought on the bus.

Hopefully a lot more will use it from Autumn once the schools, colleges and university are back in action.

Peregrine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119372686#Comment_119372686

Local councillor Vincent Jackson (and possibly others) is telling people that no buses will serve the shops and Tesco on Ballyfermot Road and that they will all go around on Kylemore/Le Fanu Road.

I also heard it today from an Inchicore resident.

I suspect he knows it's a lie.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119372728#Comment_119372728

Good to here it's going well. I'd say this route will be very useful for DCU students.

mikeybhoy

What makes them think the staffing issues will be gone by October? The only possible explanation I can think of in my head is that most of the annual leave will be used up by then.

Breezer

C86FBD15-A45F-4CE7-8498-A14CB89222DA.jpeg

I saw a bus marked G2 heading towards Liffey Valley on Church Street today. Anyone any idea what that was about? Testing? Odd place for it to be?

DaBluBoi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119374102#Comment_119374102

Pretty sure it was just an error, though kinda bizarre that it happened on a Phibsboro bus. Perhaps it'll transfer to CNR at a later date, or maybe they'll operate the spine aswell?

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119374214#Comment_119374214

Not really all buses can display any route regardless of garage

Burt Renaults

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119372408#Comment_119372408

Palermo is a strange one. If I remember correctly, two 12 metre single-deckers would usually go through at roughly the same time. Which means that they inevitably meet each other and have to find a way of squeezing past with centimetres to spare and cars haphazardly abandoned all over the place. It's been going on for four years now, and nobody from the NTA has ever considered whether it might be a good idea to source appropriate vehicles for the route. The drivers and their union should take some of the blame though. They should have collectively refused to go in there from day one.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119374929#Comment_119374929

Yes it appears the GAI drivers don't stick together like DB I've heard reports that the 76 was sent into Neilstown after the 40 was pulled for the night. The 185 with DB used to go into the Fassaroe Estate on it's way to Palermo but the unions got it removed as buses had to reverse to turn around and there were problems with ASB there also I believe.

It's all due to be replaced by the L14 from Southern Cross to Palermo and the L15 from Bray Station to Shop River mind you.

hairymaryberry

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119375089#Comment_119375089

Nothing to do with ASB, the DB 185 only went up during the day, at the time those 185's where a UNI, junior men, a senior man got it for a rest day and he pull the company up on it, totally unsuitable road for a bus, had to put the bus in reverse to get around the small roundabout with children playing in the area, the bus was pulled once the unions let DB know if a accident happened now that they where aware of the situation, it would be DB's fault.

This route was approved by DB, so just shows how out of touch they are, and those who approved where inspectors, ex drivers, so imagine how useless the NTA are? Not as soul in the NTA from a bus driving back ground.

The mess we are in now should be starting to make sense to you now, NTA in charge, what did you expect with people with ZERO bus transport experience making the big decisions??

hairymaryberry

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119374060#Comment_119374060

It will be worse come October!

The pension was signed off on Monday, 100+ drivers where doing the extra year to get the increased lump, they are quitting on mass now the increased lump is secure, the drivers coming up to retirement wont be doing a extra year.

Round here you really have ZERO idea how bad the staffing issue is, DB cant get new drivers and current ones are leaving at a steady rate, DB are throwing OT at drivers to try keep a service running, paying over the odds, 3 hours work with a bit of a haggle will get you 5 hours OT, and still buses missing everywhere.

Bus connects might be rolled out by the NTA to save face, it will be a disaster, buses missing everywhere, and all this is easily fixable, unlimited money 23billion+ for a Metro that only services a small section of Dublin, Luas drivers 50k+, Dart drivers 70k+ and last and least bus drivers 33k working the Night shift, dealing face to face with scum on a regular basis, if they last eventually on the main roster after 6 years up to 42k.

Inflation running at a low end of 10%, so that 33k has in reality become 30k a year , working the Night shift, dealing with scum drunk and drugged up to the hilt, no pay rise since 2016 and terms of that deal still not honored, drivers owed money.

If NTA want Bus connects , they better pay for it, if not a colossal mess awaits

rx8

22 unassigned duties in Ringsend yesterday and 46 rest-days today to cover the service. Many many more off in Phibsboro. Something like 65-70 Sunday rest-days there. Staffing issues will kill the rest of Bus-Connects. The NTA would be the last to admit it, but it seems to be dead in the water at this stage.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119381053#Comment_119381053

Or they could you know offer drivers more money to attract and retain more drivers. Bizarre concept I know.

ITV2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119374245#Comment_119374245

ours in DBK don't. sure some still display 22/66/67 routes.

.

dfx-

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119381053#Comment_119381053

Or worse, they go ahead with a reduced Bus Connects but focus resources on BusConnected areas before others. It's interesting for all the years of strikes and battles with primarily DB staff about how things need to change and breaking down the old way of doing things, that staffing issues on the ground are the failure point for their big idea.

Midnight_EG

I suspect the next phase will get another push due to the Labour Court recommendations today

Peregrine

The Core Bus Corridor planning applications should start to pick up now after the large gaps between the initial ones.