BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

cgcsb

I don't think BRT offers anything more than bus connects. The only advantage is entirely off-board ticketing and the flat fare and opening the jaysis middle doors can provide effectively the same thing.

GT89

L1011 wrote: »

Bendibuses alone != BRT

Bendybuses with proper bus stop infrastructure and bus priority measures is in effect BRT.

donvito99

There would be some benefit to bendy buses as they would carry nearly twice as many people per vehicle, but the proportion of seated passengers to standees is reversed. That would be a difficult sell to Joe Duffy's audience.

JustAThought

donvito99 wrote: »

There would be some benefit to bendy buses as they would carry nearly twice as many people per vehicle, but the proportion of seated passengers to standees is reversed. That would be a difficult sell to Joe Duffy's audience.

the audience that comprises mainly stay at homers with free bus passes?

cgcsb

Hearing on twitter that the final core bus corridor consultation is to start on Wednesday. Just when you think it's all over.

tom1ie

cgcsb wrote: »

Hearing on twitter that the final core bus corridor consultation is to start on Wednesday. Just when you think it's all over.

For Christ’s sake! Just build the damn corridors that aren’t giving stakeholder issues! N4 etc.
Taking way too long at this rate.

Hotblack Desiato

Has everyone forgotten that bendy buses were tried in Dublin and failed dismally?

cgcsb

tom1ie wrote: »

For Christ’s sake! Just build the damn corridors that aren’t giving stakeholder issues! N4 etc.
Taking way too long at this rate.

This is good comparatively. If you look at other projects like metrolink, which has descended into an utterly silly level of public consultation. They're now having 'micro-consultations' seeking public input on technical matters like the design of intervention shafts and the public have no sight of this project's status with seemingly no sign of even a planning application, never mind construction, some 3 years into the project.

donvito99

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Has everyone forgotten that bendy buses were tried in Dublin and failed dismally?

There was no infrastructure, ticketing or otherwise, and only one door was used. No comparison.

GT89

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Has everyone forgotten that bendy buses were tried in Dublin and failed dismally?

They were unsuccessful because they were not properly implemented. Properly implemented and they could operate just like a rubber tyred Luas.

Pete_Cavan

Modern articulated buses are far superior to whatever bus people used decades ago and are also superior to modern double deckers. When coupled with offboard ticketing (very simple in this day and age), the multiple doors allow for very fast boarding/alighting which when also combined with continuous bus lanes makes for fast services and hence greater frequencies. A huge amount of the lower saloon floor space on a double decker is taken up by circulation, space for buggies/wheelchairs and the stairs. They are not attractive for many people, those with children who may not want to or be able to go upstairs, those with mobility difficulties, anyone with a bulky item or bag who dont want to leave it unattended downstairs, etc. A DD may have more seating capacity but most of that seating is inaccessible to those who definitely need a seat.

Having said that, its probably too late to switch for Dublin. They have a huge fleet of DDs and depots are set up for them. Replacing fleet and providing the necessary infrastructure for articulated buses would be extremely difficult while also maintaining DD services in the interim. BusConnects should be the opportunity to introduce articulated bus services (and all the necessary infrastructure) in Limerick, Galway and Waterford, although we are probably about to let that opportunity pass us by. I am not sure how big the DD fleet in Cork is but articulated buses should be looked at for there too.

Peregrine

tom1ie wrote: »

Has Eamon mentioned anything in ANPR cameras?
Sean Ross was dead against them but I would hope Eamon is a bit more pro active.

Shane Ross didn't know or care about camera enforcement. The only statement he made on the matter turned out to be a mix up in the Department.

GT89

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Modern articulated buses are far superior to whatever bus people used decades ago and are also superior to modern double deckers. When coupled with offboard ticketing (very simple in this day and age), the multiple doors allow for very fast boarding/alighting which when also combined with continuous bus lanes makes for fast services and hence greater frequencies. A huge amount of the lower saloon floor space on a double decker is taken up by circulation, space for buggies/wheelchairs and the stairs. They are not attractive for many people, those with children who may not want to or be able to go upstairs, those with mobility difficulties, anyone with a bulky item or bag who dont want to leave it unattended downstairs, etc. A DD may have more seating capacity but most of that seating is inaccessible to those who definitely need a seat.

Having said that, its probably too late to switch for Dublin. They have a huge fleet of DDs and depots are set up for them. Replacing fleet and providing the necessary infrastructure for articulated buses would be extremely difficult while also maintaining DD services in the interim. BusConnects should be the opportunity to introduce articulated bus services (and all the necessary infrastructure) in Limerick, Galway and Waterford, although we are probably about to let that opportunity pass us by. I am not sure how big the DD fleet in Cork is but articulated buses should be looked at for there too.

Harristown and Phibsboro depot are both equipped for articulated buses

CatInABox

Peregrine wrote: »

Shane Ross didn't know or care about camera enforcement. The only statement he made on the matter turned out to be a mix up in the Department.

Shane Ross didn't know or care about anything transport related at all.

Peregrine

CatInABox wrote: »

Shane Ross didn't know or care about anything transport related at all.

That's fair!

punisher5112

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Has everyone forgotten that bendy buses were tried in Dublin and failed dismally?

Not failed they just were Wright's and build quality was shocking....
Roads were not suitable at all, having them go in through Clare street onto Westland row where they crashed near daily with cars trying to pass up the inside.

If they picked say the N11 and fixed all the bus stops along it to be actually suitable to get in and out of with gradual ins and out sections instead of sharp turning kerbs and then get parking of cars out of stops across the county it would help.

tom1ie

CatInABox wrote: »

Shane Ross didn't know or care about anything transport related at all.

So is there any difference re ANPR cameras with Eamon in charge?
Have we heard anything about the department pushing to get them in?

GT89

punisher5112 wrote: »

Not failed they just were Wright's and build quality was shocking....
Roads were not suitable at all, having them go in through Clare street onto Westland row where they crashed near daily with cars trying to pass up the inside.

If they picked say the N11 and fixed all the bus stops along it to be actually suitable to get in and out of with gradual ins and out sections instead of sharp turning kerbs and then get parking of cars out of stops across the county it would help.

The ones in London were good but the cyclists lobby and mororists didn't like them so Boris wasted money on the Borismasters instead. The bendybuses in London were far superior than the Boris buses and didn't cost an arm and leg to implement. Some them are used on the Quickpark shuttles now in Dublin Airport.

I remember the Dublin ones on the 4 and they were fairly crap very bouncy at the back so the build quality issues seems right. The Glider up in Belfast seems to be a sucess.

CatInABox

tom1ie wrote: »

So is there any difference re ANPR cameras with Eamon in charge?
Have we heard anything about the department pushing to get them in?

Nothing official yet, but there's been meetings between himself and the DCC CEO about their wishlist, which caused a bit of a quarrel as two Green councillors were there as, but not the chair of the transport committee.

I assume it's moving in the background.

Pete_Cavan

CatInABox wrote: »

Nothing official yet, but there's been meetings between himself and the DCC CEO about their wishlist, which caused a bit of a quarrel as two Green councillors were there as, but not the chair of the transport committee.

I assume it's moving in the background.

Do DCC have any involvement with ANPR? Both Gardaí and DCC are supposed to be creating new control centres in the new IE's National Train Control Centre at Heuston, maybe the systems can be integrated to an extent to allow for this?

CatInABox

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Do DCC have any involvement with ANPR? Both Gardaí and DCC are supposed to be creating new control centres in the new IE's National Train Control Centre at Heuston, maybe the systems can be integrated to an extent to allow for this?

I don't think so, to be honest, it's just DCC trying to push it along. I can't see it as being anything other than the NTAs responsibility, otherwise you'd have special laws just for Dublin.

Most likely, the NTA will own the cameras, but all the legal enforcement is passed over onto the Garda, which is how it works with the GoSafe camera vans.

Peregrine

tom1ie wrote: »

So is there any difference re ANPR cameras with Eamon in charge?
Have we heard anything about the department pushing to get them in?

It's not really a political issue for him at the moment so it's pretty much up to the civil servants.

There's been discussion between the NTA and DoT about letting the NTA enforce it without AGS and, more recently, between DoT and AGS. The NTA first proposed it two years ago and then nothing happened for ages. The whole thing is moving at a snail's pace. Nothing is guaranteed but, unless the department or AGS has some objection to it, I think it will go through.

Ryan is aware of it and would definitely support it if it's brought to him by his department but it's not a policy objective for him at the moment. He hasn't been pressed about it. Anything that has happened since Ryan took over was already in motion while Ross was minister.

DCC isn't really involved except they requested that the NTA be given the powers to carry out enforcement on local authority equipment. They didn't request it for themselves. I don't see a situation where the local authorities are given powers to enforce it over the NTA.

NTA/LA cameras and AGS enforcement..maybe but that's outside DoT and Ryan's control. DoJ aren't really interested and AGS definitely aren't interested. Remember the DCC owned red light camera that AGS was supposed to enforce as a trial? According to DCC, AGS just stopped enforcing it during the trial. We're still waiting for the permanent ones announced in April 2019. Since then, DCC asked for red light camera powers for the NTA in that meeting too even though they're trying to work with AGS on it. That's how much faith DCC has in AGS.

Pete_Cavan

Peregrine wrote: »

Ryan is aware of it and would definitely support it if it's brought to him by his department but it's not a policy objective for him at the moment.

Surely it is the single thing he can do to have to most positive impact on public transport in the shortest space of time at the lowest cost? BusConnects, DART+, etc. are great but take a horrendous length of time to implement and inevitably run into funding difficulties. Camera enforcement of existing bus lanes would have an immediate impact and all it takes is to get a few key people into a room and hammer out a plan for making it work. I don't see why his department needs to bring it to him, he should be telling the department that it is a priority issue and needs to be sorted ASAP. It is such a low hanging fruit that it is practically in his hand already, yet Ryan seems to be spending more time daydreaming about the WRC lately.

cgcsb

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Surely it is the single thing he can do to have to most positive impact on public transport in the shortest space of time at the lowest cost? BusConnects, DART+, etc. are great but take a horrendous length of time to implement and inevitably run into funding difficulties. Camera enforcement of existing bus lanes would have an immediate impact and all it takes is to get a few key people into a room and hammer out a plan for making it work. I don't see why his department needs to bring it to him, he should be telling the department that it is a priority issue and needs to be sorted ASAP. It is such a low hanging fruit that it is practically in his hand already, yet Ryan seems to be spending more time daydreaming about the WRC lately.

This is so true and so undervalued as a solution. If the current bus lanes were actually enforced, at least the ones where they tend to be ignored, bus journey times would be slashed. Even if only Bachelors walk, City Quay, College Green, Rathmines and Stoneybatter were enforced you'd see the journey times much lower.

Hotblack Desiato

donvito99 wrote: »

There was no infrastructure, ticketing or otherwise, and only one door was used. No comparison.

Without massive spending on infrastructural works they are entirely unsuitable for a city like Dublin. The Glider in Belfast cost over £100m but sure up there who cares, it's not their own money...

cgcsb

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Without massive spending on infrastructural works they are entirely unsuitable for a city like Dublin. The Glider in Belfast cost over £100m but sure up there who cares, it's not their own money...

Seems bad value compared to light rail options, especially how you see how quickly the gliders capacity was absorbed in it's first year of opening. The £1bn Edinburgh Tram disaster was held up as anti-tram fodder across UK govt departments. If Belfast or Cork were on the mainland they'd have trams and electric commuter rail but English thinking still dominates around here.

GT89

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Without massive spending on infrastructural works they are entirely unsuitable for a city like Dublin. The Glider in Belfast cost over £100m but sure up there who cares, it's not their own money...

Not sure how they are any more unsuitable than in other cities. Once they are on straight routes ie. routes not going into housing estates with long bus stops that can accomodate them they could work well. The only people who will probably dislike them are motorists who can't overtake them easily due to their length like in London.

I don't agree with using them as a substitute for light rail but rather as a replacement for double deckers on busy routes.

GT89

cgcsb wrote: »

Seems bad value compared to light rail options, especially how you see how quickly the gliders capacity was absorbed in it's first year of opening. The £1bn Edinburgh Tram disaster was held up as anti-tram fodder across UK govt departments. If Belfast or Cork were on the mainland they'd have trams and electric commuter rail but English thinking still dominates around here.

Would they really despite Leeds a city bigger than Dublin not having any form of light rail or even BRT

MJohnston

Belfast is a weird city spatially — a compact, grid layout city centre with a lot of wide 2+2 roads running right into it (and through it). It's very British in that sense.

It's hard to compare what works in that city with Dublin for those reasons, I don't think they're comparable at all.

cgcsb

GT89 wrote: »

Would they really despite Leeds a city bigger than Dublin not having any form of light rail or even BRT

Eh Leeds isn't on the mainland, it's in England. So a classic example of English thinking. Leeds is not bigger than Dublin, not by a long shot. :pac: You've probably got bamboozeled by the illusively illogical English system of defining city boundaries which makes Leeds the England's second largest City after Birmingham:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_districts_by_population