BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

MJohnston

tom1ie wrote: »

Yes but pt is supposed to service the needs of the public that live in the city. Dublin sw is a traffic black spot that has to be fixed regardless of how many more people we can jam into the area.
This idea of only looking after areas that will turn into high density areas at the detriment of established medium density areas (plenty of houses in knocklyon, ballyboden/firhouse, stocking lane have been and are being constructed) is crazy. We can’t just allow this traffic black spot to continue as is and most likely get worse.

Look, the entire city of Dublin is a traffic and transport disaster at this point. It's a matter of triage - "the rationing of patient treatment efficiently when resources are insufficient for all to be treated immediately"

Right now, the south-west is the ageing patient sitting in the corner of the emergency room with a broken spine, internal bleeding, and severe brain damage. The triage nurse has painted a red X on its forehead.

Some other parts of the city, well they're still in nearly as bad shape, but they've got stronger vital signs, and they're much younger so they've still got their whole life ahead of them to grow.

So they get treated first, because if you save them now, you'll still have the resources to save a few other patients like them. Treat the south-west first, and you'll expend all your resources saving only them.

machaseh

MJohnston wrote: »

An at-grade Luas (Luas isn't an acronym btw, no need to capitalise it!) to Rathfarnham might be possible, with extreme cost, but it would be far from desirable. At-grade running for Luas should be avoided at all costs. I think the expense required to make an it happen in the south-west of the city would actually greatly outweigh the costs of a Metro tunnel from SSG.

Obviously, if a tunnel is cheaper than at-grade, then go for it, but the odds that this is indeed true are basically 0.

Idbatterim

machaseh wrote: »

I really don't think they are going to expand the already existing brides glen - sandyford line into metro standard. LUAS it is.

Keep in mind that hardly anybody would take LUAS all the way from Bray into town if they can also just take the DART. It would mostly be used to travel to say Dundrum.

People can and do use Brides Glen - town all the way. I personally do so every single day for example and the number of people is only going to grow as cherrywood campus and other developments in the area are being finished.

dundrum, sandyford, leopardstown business park... carrickmines retail park too...

MJohnston

machaseh wrote: »

Obviously, if a tunnel is cheaper than at-grade, then go for it, but the odds that this is indeed true are basically 0.

No, they aren't.

If we were talking about a Luas line running through green-fields, obviously that would be cheaper, but we're not. We're talking about running through some of the most expensive properties in the city, as well as some of the most congested roads. The capital costs here would be absolutely enormous.

Luas BXD is the best possible comparison, even though I think the CPO amounts were pretty low for it. Even with that, it had a €62m per km cost (5.9km length, €368m total cost), which is largely due to having to accommodate on-street running.

To compare, the average EU cost of underground railways is between €25m and €30m per km (source: https://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/sources/docgener/studies/pdf/assess_unit_cost_rail/annex_13_case_study_tunneling.pdf ).

tom1ie

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The city is a traffic black spot at this point . You're being unbelievably selfish

Not really.
Bray has access to heavy rail.
Lucan has access to heavy rail.
Finglas will have be sandwiched in between a heavy rail line and metrolink.
Poolbeg? Whereabouts in poolbeg? Do you mean near the Aviva or near the chimneys? There’s plenty of heavy rail plus the red line terminus at the 3 arena.

The sw has none of these options while still being the worst traffic black spot in the city.
That’s not being selfish that’s just common sense.

tom1ie

MJohnston wrote: »

Look, the entire city of Dublin is a traffic and transport disaster at this point. It's a matter of triage - "the rationing of patient treatment efficiently when resources are insufficient for all to be treated immediately"

Right now, the south-west is the ageing patient sitting in the corner of the emergency room with a broken spine, internal bleeding, and severe brain damage. The triage nurse has painted a red X on its forehead.

Some other parts of the city, well they're still in nearly as bad shape, but they've got stronger vital signs, and they're much younger so they've still got their whole life ahead of them to grow.

So they get treated first, because if you save them now, you'll still have the resources to save a few other patients like them. Treat the south-west first, and you'll expend all your resources saving only them.

Actually this is a good analogy. The only problem being the elderly patient who has contributed tax money towards his healthcare all his life has died by the time the transport comes a knocking!

MJohnston

tom1ie wrote: »

Finglas will have be sandwiched in between a heavy rail line and metrolink.

This is disingenuous - by that exact same logic I could argue that Rathfarnham is sandwiched in between the Red line and Green Line. Also, this is a small (around 3.5km, depending on how far beyond the M50 it goes) extension that would cost very little extra.

Poolbeg? Whereabouts in poolbeg? Do you mean near the Aviva or near the chimneys? There’s plenty of heavy rail plus the red line terminus at the 3 arena.

This is another extremely short (less than 1.5km) extension proposed to accommodate the Irish Glass Bottle residential site.

The sw has none of these options while still being the worst traffic black spot in the city.
That’s not being selfish that’s just common sense.

Again - the south west also has minimal potential in terms of future population density growth. It's also common sense to prioritise areas that can support vast increases in population, which is absolutely needed right now.

LeinsterDub

tom1ie wrote: »

Not really.
Bray has access to heavy rail.
Lucan has access to heavy rail.
Finglas will have be sandwiched in between a heavy rail line and metrolink.
Poolbeg? Whereabouts in poolbeg? Do you mean near the Aviva or near the chimneys? There’s plenty of heavy rail plus the red line terminus at the 3 arena.

The sw has none of these options while still being the worst traffic black spot in the city.
That’s not being selfish that’s just common sense.

I'll take the NTA's assessment over yours thanks

tom1ie

MJohnston wrote: »

This is disingenuous - by that exact same logic I could argue that Rathfarnham is sandwiched in between the Red line and Green Line. Also, this is a small (around 3.5km, depending on how far beyond the M50 it goes) extension that would cost very little extra.



This is another extremely short (less than 1.5km) extension proposed to accommodate the Irish Glass Bottle residential site.



Again - the south west also has minimal potential in terms of future population density growth. It's also common sense to prioritise areas that can support vast increases in population, which is absolutely needed right now.

Again you are going on about population growth. I have already stated there are large developments going on in ballyboden, knocklyon, firhouse etc.
I have also stated we need to service existing areas just as much as areas that will be built up in time.
Throw in to the argument that the sw is the worst traffic black spot.
Throw into the argument that bus connects will not work due to spineless local politicians and local residents completely opposing bc.
Throw into the argument there is no room for a luas in these areas.
What is the only logical conclusions left?
Leave Dublin sw as is to get worse?

MJohnston

tom1ie wrote: »

Again you are going on about population growth. I have already stated there are large developments going on in ballyboden, knocklyon, firhouse etc.

There are, but I've been over this in excruciating detail on one of the Metrolink threads with strassenwolf before, and you'll have to just take my word that there is more potential development in other parts of the city than in these areas. I would also note that Knocklyon and would not really be served by a Luas to Rathfarnham, and Firhouse is arguably already served by the Red line.

I have also stated we need to service existing areas just as much as areas that will be built up in time.
Throw in to the argument that the sw is the worst traffic black spot.
Throw into the argument that bus connects will not work due to spineless local politicians and local residents completely opposing bc.
Throw into the argument there is no room for a luas in these areas.
What is the only logical conclusions left?
Leave Dublin sw as is to get worse?

No, the logical conclusion is that BusConnects has to be put into place in these areas, no matter the residents' objections.

machaseh

MJohnston wrote: »

No, they aren't.

If we were talking about a Luas line running through green-fields, obviously that would be cheaper, but we're not. We're talking about running through some of the most expensive properties in the city, as well as some of the most congested roads. The capital costs here would be absolutely enormous.

Luas BXD is the best possible comparison, even though I think the CPO amounts were pretty low for it. Even with that, it had a €62m per km cost (5.9km length, €368m total cost), which is largely due to having to accommodate on-street running.

To compare, the average EU cost of underground railways is between €25m and €30m per km (source: https://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/sources/docgener/studies/pdf/assess_unit_cost_rail/annex_13_case_study_tunneling.pdf ).

Cost of underground rail depends on many factors:

- The type of soil
- Whether the metro is built using cut and cover (requiring demolition of what is above) or by drilling a tunnel (requires no demolition but is exorbitantly expensive)
- Wage level (any eu average would include cheap eastern european countries) etc.

While I appreciate that properties around this area are expensive and that the current traffic situation is bad, a surface-level luas would primarily run on what is now road for cars and buses. The idea is that the luas will take a way a lot of the road traffic in the area. Even so it probably won't be avoidable to not have to buy up a small amount of the expensive properties in the area.

cdaly_

machaseh wrote: »

Yes ideally sandyford to town would become metro standard, but not if it means that the line will be closed for 2-3 years while they're working on it. That would be absolutely unacceptable.

Is I recall, that was NIMBY propaganda. It was never the intention to close the line. Instead, individual stops would close for upgrading over the course of 2-3 years.

LeinsterDub

cdaly_ wrote: »

Is I recall, that was NIMBY propaganda. It was never the intention to close the line. Instead, individual stops would close for upgrading over the course of 2-3 years.

The same NIMBYs who'll be whinging when they can't get on the tram where it's full coming from Brides glen

donvito99

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The same NIMBYs who'll be whinging when they can't get on the tram where it's full coming from Brides glen

Having attended a public meeting which featured the "Re-Think Metrolink" NIMBY group, it's safe to say that their speakers weren't in the business of getting on trams in the morning peak, and if they were going into town, they weren't on the Luas anyway (20 minute walk, few minutes on a bike).

It's a "Keep Dunville Ave open so I can drive to Mortons" campaign. It started in that tone BEFORE the issue of the sewer became public.

tom1ie

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I'll take the NTA's assessment over yours thanks

No need to thank

tom1ie

MJohnston wrote: »

There are, but I've been over this in excruciating detail on one of the Metrolink threads with strassenwolf before, and you'll have to just take my word that there is more potential development in other parts of the city than in these areas. I would also note that Knocklyon and would not really be served by a Luas to Rathfarnham, and Firhouse is arguably already served by the Red line.

Ok. I’m saying forget about future development. Serve what’s there at the moment.
There is no room for an at grade luas to Rathfarnham, if there’s no room for bc, there’s no room for an at grade luas.

It depends what route you take for the Rathfarnham line but you could head out to firhouse via knocklyon via Rathfarnham via terenure via Harold’s x.
An enormous amount of money but that’s what it will take to free us from gridlock.
Another point I want to bring up is the population density question. To increase the catchment area for a potential terminus at firhouse build a large p+r at kilinniny road (firhouse m50 junction part of the green route). Local busses from the firhouse ballyboden area could shuttle to the p+r, this is the equivalent of having a high density residential area.

No, the logical conclusion is that BusConnects has to be put into place in these areas, no matter the residents' objections.

But it won’t be that’s the problem. Any kind of bc that is delivered will be a half arsed, keep everyone happy solution, that ends up suiting no one.

MJohnston

You can't say forget about future development though, because that's an integral and important part of any cost-benefit analysis.

Whether BusConnects is delivered half-arsed or not, the solution has been offered. It's up to the residents of these areas to either embrace it, or be left behind.

tom1ie

MJohnston wrote: »

You can't say forget about future development though, because that's an integral and important part of any cost-benefit analysis.

Whether BusConnects is delivered half-arsed or not, the solution has been offered. It's up to the residents of these areas to either embrace it, or be left behind.

Don’t get me wrong I’m all for bc. I’m all for banning cars within the canals to be honest, but these local pressure groups are going to win out. No doubt about it. I think the only way your going to get viable pt in Dublin so is a full blown metro.

MJohnston

I think it's pretty clear that any other Metro than the one we're already planning is at least 10 years away. The main issue is that most of these pressure groups are led by people who have zero interest in any form of public transport (examples of whom can be found on the M50 Congestion thread in this forum) - they either no longer commute or commute exclusively in cars.

As I said in that other thread, I think their options are running out. To put it simply:

A. Do nothing, and car commuting is going to get markedly worse in the next couple of years.
B. Enact BusConnects half-assedly, and car commuting is going to get markedly worse in the next couple of years.
C. Enact BusConnects properly, and car commuting is going to get markedly worse in the next couple of years.

The only difference is with Option C, you have an alternative to cars that works for most people, and a cleaner city for everyone.

Spanish Eyes

Irony is that if cars were banned (apart from deliveries in the twilight zone and emergency vehicles), PT and buses would work well along with cycling and scooters.

Someone has to make a decision here. But there is always a way that the car lobby will argue that they absolutely NEED to be in their cars slap bang in the middle of the city at all hours.

Maybe a congestion charge? Uh Oh that would require NPR and enforcement. Why is there little or no enforcement of the way buslanes are clogged every day by cars and vans etc. I wonder?

I reckon it's because those making the rules NEVER have to use a bus and think of users as losers. Yet they are investing a humungous sum into BC all the same. Hopefully enforcement will be a factor going forward. Trying to stay positive!

The city is unreal with every mode chasing for space and no enforcement when non PT are in PT space.

But this is Ireland remember?

Idbatterim

those that kick up the biggest fuss, are mostly pensioners I would wager, with their free transport! they dont have to commute at peak hours, they couldnt give a toss!

hmmm

MJohnston wrote: »

A. Do nothing, and car commuting is going to get markedly worse in the next couple of years.

In my experience, I don't think many of these complainers actually commute. The problems they have are public transport decisions disrupting their lives outside peak hours, or public transport "lowering the tone" of their neighbourhoods through e.g. noisy buses, road works.

The Bus Connects objections were whipped up in many cases to target infrequent bus users - e.g. granny who goes visiting her grandkids once a week on a Tuesday at 11pm. Commuters in general are big winners from BC. Unfortunately for local politicians they have to be seen to respond to these people - there is no way other than to take the decisions away from local level.

Idbatterim

hmmm wrote: »

In my experience, I don't think many of these complainers actually commute. The problems they have are public transport decisions disrupting their lives outside peak hours, or public transport "lowering the tone" of their neighbourhoods through e.g. noisy buses, road works.

The Bus Connects objections were whipped up in many cases to target infrequent bus users - e.g. granny who goes visiting her grandkids once a week on a Tuesday at 11pm. Commuters in general are big winners from BC. Unfortunately for local politicians they have to be seen to respond to these people - there is no way other than to take the decisions away from local level.

ok so they all run on the nimby platform afraid of losing seats. this alienates a lot of potential voters. Dont provide homes in my area "I'm grand", dont provide bus lanes in my area that I wont use or can travel off peak "I'm grand". Local level governance here, has taken piss taking to another extreme, in many areas!

Would it make sense for FF and FG to run new candidates etc on YIMBY front, and their existing NIMBY councillors etc, can stay that way. Would the YIMBY vote not be a potentially large untapped vote, given that no candidates run on that platform and many of us are sick of it?

MJohnston

Politicians, or at least those in FFFG will largely stick to business friendly policies that they think will get them elected. That's why more people need to be actively supporting things like Dublin Commuter Coalition - make a louder noise in favour of transport and watch those FFFG lot change their tune.

Polar101

Noticed some poster around Mulhuddart (D15) advertising a public meeting held by Ruth Coppinger TD and co.
"Save our direct 38 buses". I feel like they haven't even looked at the plans, except that there is no 38/38a in it.

BluePlanet

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I reckon it's because those making the rules NEVER have to use a bus and think of users as losers. Yet they are investing a humungous sum into BC all the same. Hopefully enforcement will be a factor going forward. Trying to stay positive!

The city is unreal with every mode chasing for space and no enforcement when non PT are in PT space.

But this is Ireland remember?

Yes that's it.
I propose a compulsory quota of public transport use per month, for our elected representatives, particularly in the capital city.

Nijmegen

Polar101 wrote: »

Noticed some poster around Mulhuddart (D15) advertising a public meeting held by Ruth Coppinger TD and co.
"Save our direct 38 buses". I feel like they haven't even looked at the plans, except that there is no 38/38a in it.

Basically. They also have posters up around houses that will see fewer aircraft going overhead exhorting the locals to complain about the 2nd runway. Politicians live in a clientele world where facts should never get in the way of being seen to be on the side of someone who might give you a vote.

People want things to improve but want no changes. Not sure how to square that. One thing I do agree with is that most politicians don't regularly use public transport or commute along the lines that most ordinary Jane's do, ie M50 or 2 buses or a crammed train at rush hour. I actually doubt they see the misery and unfortunately a lot of working people get home and keep quiet where pensioners and the ladies who lunch can show up to public meetings and ensure they're well heard.

cgcsb

I think the biggest problem is the public consultation. You're asking people to give input and they are simply unable to do so because a certain % of the population are people who can only thing in small terms, in 2 dimensions. For these people if they were told on Friday that from Monday the bus will go this way instead they'd be fine, they wouldn't have to think about it.

machaseh

The main problem is the district voting here in Ireland. We don't have nearly as many of those problems in my country the Netherlands.

In the Netherlands, public transport is divided up by zones. Each transport zone gives out a tender in order for private transport companies to bid for the concession, and then the best scoring one wins. The company has to adhere to a certain set of minimum standards concerning minimally required bus routes, frequencies etc., but they can also offer higher frequencies if they so choose. They have a certain amount of leeway to slightly change bus routes for operational reasons, so we are used to bus numbers changing each year as well as minor route changes for buses.

Here in Ireland however, a public consultation needs to be held for even a minor bus route change and people don't understand what exactly is changing and start to protest.

bk

machaseh wrote: »

They have a certain amount of leeway to slightly change bus routes for operational reasons, so we are used to bus numbers changing each year as well as minor route changes for buses.

Here in Ireland however, a public consultation needs to be held for even a minor bus route change and people don't understand what exactly is changing and start to protest.

Just to point out, minor bus route changes, schedule changes and number changes have happened all the time over the years here in Dublin and even continue to happen. So not that different to the Netherlands.

With Network Direct 10 years ago they were pretty major changes.

BusConnects isn't small, they are probably the biggest changes that the bus network has ever seen. Having said that, I do wonder if the public consultation was even necessary? Could they not have just gone ahead with the changes. I don't remember such consultations for Network Direct?

I think these sort of public consultations just give a platform for whiners. Unless legally required, I think they should be avoided.