BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

Tickityboo

bk wrote: »

DB unfortunately are overly obsessed with fare evasion. This is one of the reasons why for years they only had single door buses and forced everyone through the front door and past the driver. Even if it massively slows down the whole journey for all of the majority of honest fare paying passengers.
_____________________________

The single door buses were brought in to facilitate the provision of a wheelchair space.
Nothing to do with fare evasion!!

brokenarms

dazberry wrote: »

The majority of drivers on the route I am on open the doors at the city centre stops. I have seen on occasion OAPs struggling to get off the middle door when the bus is not completely parallel to the curb necessitating a step down onto the road - for those that have slight mobility issues.

The bus I was on recently during the Luas red line issue was completely wedged - the driver opened the middle doors at every stop thankfully, absolutely no way to alight at the front door in that scenario.

D.

Its really hard to get a nearly 40 foot but into stops parallel when coming in at an angle.. Made worse by the high curbs at bus stops. So the front overhang catches the curbs. And scares the bejesus out of ya when it does catch..!!

LXFlyer

I'd imagine that the sheer volume of bus stops around Dublin is a far bigger obstacle.

There are 5,000+ stops!

A tag-off reader at each one would cost a fortune.

bk

I think it is more like something like 11,000!

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

I think it is more like something like 11,000!

I don't think that it's that amount to be fair (assuming we are talking about Dublin Bus).

Any new Dublin Bus stops added are all numbered in the 7xxx sequence and there no stops numbered 8,000 or higher.

There are an awful lot of numbers skipped before you get to the 7,000s, hence my lower guesstimate.

Either way there's a lot of stops, enough to make having readers at each one impossible due to the cost that would involve.

Victor

I went along to one of the workshops they are holding for stakeholders.

At this time, BusConnects is about routes. Other things will happen in parallel.

At this time, there are no specific proposals.

Victor

The suggested colour scheme for the buses is regressive, as it is essentially urban camouflage. http://www.cix.co.uk/~mollusca/tank/9607bel05.jpg

lxflyer wrote: »

There are 5,000+ stops!

7,500 Dublin Bus and 5,000 Bus Éireann (nationwide) stops.

bk wrote: »

Maybe Leapcard green would be more iconic, but perhaps too plastic paddy.

Green quite good for DART, but probably blends too much on a tree-lined street.

LXFlyer

Victor wrote: »

7,500 Dublin Bus and 5,000 Bus ?ireann (nationwide) stops.

Regardless of the exact figure (which I still think is less for DB given all of the numbers skipped along the way) - putting readers at every stop is a non-starter given the volume and associated costs!

bk

Victor wrote: »

I went along to one of the workshops they are holding for stakeholders.

At this time, BusConnects is about routes. Other things will happen in parallel.

At this time, there are no specific proposals.

Yes, it is obvious the plan encompasses a variety of different parallel projects. For instance the contactless card support on Leap, etc. have been in the works for a while now.

Victor wrote: »

7,500 Dublin Bus and 5,000 Bus Éireann (nationwide) stops.

Ah, right, I know I had 11,000 in my head from a previous conversation. That would make sense, thanks.

lxflyer wrote: »

Regardless of the exact figure (which I still think is less for DB given all of the numbers skipped along the way) - putting readers at every stop is a non-starter given the volume and associated costs!

Absolutely, power and comms to even 7,000 poles would simply be a non starter.

Probably would be a lot cheaper just to subsidise DB introducing a flat fare then that would cost!

cython

coylemj wrote: »

Tagging off on Dublin Bus carries a big risk of aggravation towards people who don't have their card ready when exiting at busy stops, especially where lots of the exiting passengers are making a connection with another bus or operator. Unless there's a flat fare, DB would really need left and right scanners and a divider pole (as there used to be to be on older buses) at the exit doors to split the exiting traffic into two lanes. That way one idiot foostering in a wallet or handbag for their card won't completely block the exit.

Putting the tag on the bus stops so you tag off after exiting like on the Luas is a solution but for various reasons like roadworks or traffic blockages, buses often stop away from the stop which would make this awkward.

As already mentioned, other countries manage tag-on/tag-off without issue on buses. I was in Copenhagen a couple of months ago, and they have a mix of printed tickets (just show the driver as you board), and tag on/off. Most people tagging off just do so between the stop before theirs, and the one where they are getting off. Those not beside the validators tag as they pass, and there are about 4-5 validators in the vicinity of the rear doors. Seems this could be a reasonable solution in Ireland too? Admittedly these were single deck buses with lower loading, but the validators that were there were excessive, so could have catered for a much larger vehicle.

n97 mini

I can't see tagging off on board working. There'll be queues on board at some stops, and dwell times will be even worse.

VG31

n97 mini wrote: »

I can't see tagging off on board working. There'll be queues on board at some stops, and dwell times will be even worse.

It would only work if you tag-off only at the centre doors and there would need to be two validators there. The validators would also want to be a lot more sensitive so you barely have to tap your card off them.

AlekSmart

bk wrote: »

DB unfortunately are overly obsessed with fare evasion. This is one of the reasons why for years they only had single door buses and forced everyone through the front door and past the driver. Even if it massively slows down the whole journey for all of the majority of honest fare paying passengers.

In other countries in Europe they think it is more important to keep the whole service running quickly and smoothly. That is why they have buses with 3 or 4 doors, you can enter and exit through any door and you validate your ticket on board. Leads to much faster journey times.

Fare evasion is not the responsibility of the driver then, it is down by random ticket checkers and high on the spot fines.

Ironically despite the poor setup of DB buses, DB still ends up needing ticket inspectors due to free pass fraud and people buying cheaper tickets then their journey. So the whole system ends up not making sense anyway.

It's not quite correct to suggest Dublin Bus is "Obsessed"with Revenue Protection.

The Company is required under the terms of it's Contract with the NTA as outlined in Schedule 10 of that document.

Failure to deploy and maintain a Revenue Protection apparatus,leaves the Company open to penalties under the contract.

10.1.2 The Operator shall deploy Revenue Protection Officers on the Network for the purpose of inspecting tickets and issuing Standard Fares to passengers who do not have a valid ticket. Revenue Protection Officers must wear a uniform and carry an ID badge while on duty, except when conducting plain clothes inspections, in which case an ID badge must still be carried.

10.2 Standard Fares

10.2.1 The Operator shall implement the Bye-laws and all Legal Requirements relating to the issue of notices in relation to, making of demands for and collection of Standard Fares.

10.2.2 The Operator shall ensure that proper records of all notices in relation to and demands for Standard Fares issued and Standard Fares paid are kept, and shall provide Standard Fare reports to the Authority at the frequency and with the level of detail required by the Authority. Such reports shall include the reporting requirements under Standard Fares in the Period Passenger, Revenue and Ticketing Report and supporting information as set out in Annex B to Schedule18: Records and Reporting Requirements.

10.2.3 The Operator shall implement an appeals process for passengers who wish to appeal the imposition of a Standard Fare

With the new 10% Contracts,diverting Farebox revenue directly to the NTA,it is likely that the NTA itself will now embark upon its own Revenue Protection,or perhaps,continue to utilize the pre-existing BAC RP teams,via a seperate operational contract.

monument

n97 mini wrote: »

I can't see tagging off on board working. There'll be queues on board at some stops, and dwell times will be even worse.

Amazing other countries don't have a notable issue with this!

Our main dwell issue is the passenger-driver interaction, not tagging on.

n97 mini

monument wrote: »

Amazing other countries don't have a notable issue with this!

Our main dwell issue is the passenger-driver interaction, not tagging on.

Maybe they don't run cross-city routes? Take for example the 46A... Picks up at the outer limits and empties as it gets closer to the city centre.

I've only used buses extensively in the US and the UK and only came across tagging off in one city in the US. It was purely for statistics collection as it made no difference to the (flat) fare whether you tagged off or not.

Stephen15

AlekSmart wrote: »

It's not quite correct to suggest Dublin Bus is "Obsessed"with Revenue Protection.

The Company is required under the terms of it's Contract with the NTA as outlined in Schedule 10 of that document.

Failure to deploy and maintain a Revenue Protection apparatus,leaves the Company open to penalties under the contract.

With the new 10% Contracts,diverting Farebox revenue directly to the NTA,it is likely that the NTA itself will now embark upon its own Revenue Protection,or perhaps,continue to utilize the pre-existing BAC RP teams,via a seperate operational contract.

So is that why lately there has been a slight increase in revenue protection officers on DB buses. I was on a bus there a few months and was inspected for the first time in about ten years. I havent been inspected since but I've them get on other buses. Were they scrapped during the recession?

Would unions be willing to allow their workers contracts o be transfered over to the NTA it seems they'll all possible to prevent 'privatisation'. Even if T+Cs and wages will be the very same.

Also where would they base the revenue protection officers I assume they are currently based in DB depots.

Stephen15

Theres already a thread about these changes could a mod merge them

Stephen15

n97 mini wrote: »

Maybe they don't run cross-city routes? Take for example the 46A... Picks up at the outer limits and empties as it gets closer to the city centre.

I've only used buses extensively in the US and the UK and only came across tagging off in one city in the US. It was purely for statistics collection as it made no difference to the (flat) fare whether you tagged off or not.

Most cities in Europe have flat fares on buses. I wouldnt be looking to the UK (outside London) or the US for inspiration on how to run a public transport system.

n97 mini

Stephen15 wrote: »

Most cities in Europe have flat fares on buses. I wouldnt be looking to the UK (outside London) or the US for inspiration on how to run a public transport system.

I think you're agreeing with me, tho not sure! I'm advocating flat fares and no tagging off, which is my experience of buses in the UK and US.

RayM

Pixel Eater wrote: »

Maybe bring back to the aul green buses...

Something like this, maybe...




It'll be a shame if the yellow completely disappears from the buses. In addition to being useful for people with visual impairments, it's become part of Dublin's urban landscape.

Stephen15

RayM wrote: »

Something like this, maybe...




It'll be a shame if the yellow completely disappears from the buses. In addition to being useful for people with visual impairments, it's become part of Dublin's urban landscape.

Not mad on the yellow personally it gives the double deckers a very dominant look. The best DB livery IMO was the cream and navy livery from the late 90s it looked somewhat classy. The green gives the buses a bit of miltary look. I reckon a white and blue livery would look well or navy and sky blue.

Tardis

If every bus stop is being updated, build an nfc chip into the stops and tag on/off at the actual stop. As you would with the tag machines for the luas. Some bus shelters already have nfc built in for advertisements

Victor

Tardis wrote: »

If every bus stop is being updated, build an nfc chip into the stops and tag on/off at the actual stop. As you would with the tag machines for the luas. Some bus shelters already have nfc built in for advertisements

All well and good with a mobile phone, but if you have just two NFC chips (Leap Card and pole), where do they get their power from?

punisher5112

Just so there is no confusion db is far and I mean to the moon and back far on how they approach fare evasion.

They have a team of 4 yes just 4 inspectors to do the checks. Then they brought in the new system of getting drivers to tag along which is meant to be 80 but that is only a pool so 10 or less would be out at any one time.

They don't go to certain areas and aren't out at night or very early and with 1000 vehicles and rising that's beyond ridiculous.

There hasn't been any proper checks in a few months now also

cython

Victor wrote: »

All well and good with a mobile phone, but if you have just two NFC chips (Leap Card and pole), where do they get their power from?

Or indeed (assuming that this would be charged like Irish Rail/Luas) which of them does the calculation of what to refund onto the card from the presumably already deducted maximum fare? Or when fares change, does someone have to go around and manually update/replace the NFC at each bus stop? A simply chip would never work, it has to be fully fledged validator, and as people have already noted, this would be prohibitive to implement, and a nightmare to maintain as well (vandalism, etc.) - just look at the average lifespan of a validator in Broombridge!

A danger with these technologies is unfortunately that people throw the terms about without actually fully understanding what they comprise.

Cookie_Monster

I don't suppose this overall review is going to address issues like why middle doors are not used or anything practical like that?
Because removing that ridiculous legal threat to drivers and actually having them use the doors at every stop would make an enormous difference.

dazberry

The only issue is with tagging off would be at certain high usage stops - which are most likely in the city centre and most likely have or share an RTPI display. You could differentiate those stops as being tag off offboard stops, and install validators on or adjacent to the RTPI displays. Every other stop outside these would require an on-board tag off.

The downside is that you effectively have an exception to a system, so it works in two different ways - but if the stops were limited to specific city center only stops (and perhaps prompted by automated on board announcements) people would probably get it quick enough.

bk

Unfortunately I don't think that would work. You would just have people tagging off on the bus anyway, in case the off bus validate wasn't there or wasn't working.

Having said that I think on bus tag-off would be better then the current driver interaction model anyway.

Dravokivich

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I don't suppose this overall review is going to address issues like why middle doors are not used or anything practical like that?
Because removing that ridiculous legal threat to drivers and actually having them use the doors at every stop would make an enormous difference.

What routes don't use them and where?

Any time I'm on a bus serving between Clondalkin / Leixlip / Fairview and the city, I'm always seeing the middle doors being used.

Is it a matter now of someone seeing it not being used at a few stops and thinking that's always the case? There's audio announcements now on the buses telling people to use the middle doors to exit.

VG31

Dravokivich wrote: »

What routes don't use them and where?

Any time I'm on a bus serving between Clondalkin / Leixlip / Fairview and the city, I'm always seeing the middle doors being used.

Is it a matter now of someone seeing it not being used at a few stops and thinking that's always the case? There's audio announcements now on the buses telling people to use the middle doors to exit.

On the routes I get they are used infrequently (4, 9, 40, 83, 140). If the bus is full they are normally used, but otherwise it's hit and miss. I see the same happening on other routes in the city centre.

I occasionally get the 46A or 145 and they seem to be used a lot more on those routes.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I don't suppose this overall review is going to address issues like why middle doors are not used or anything practical like that?
Because removing that ridiculous legal threat to drivers and actually having them use the doors at every stop would make an enormous difference.

I didn't see it mentioned anywhere unfortunately. They must know that it's an issue though.