Car purchase done horrible

JamesKerry

Hi there,

I am hoping for some advice from anyone with regards to a recent car purchase I made.

I bought a car for 9000 euro on Friday last, and on the same day I had to have it toed to a garage for a timing chain and flywheel repair. This repair cost my partner and I in excess of 2000 euros. (BMW car - private mechanic)

During the deal with "X" he stated to us that the timing belt would not need to be changed for a further 30K miles. Along with this he stated both in words and on the ad that the car had a full service.

Of course, this was not the case as we know now.

We have completed an ownership check and it seems the car is still registered to a dealer but we bought it off a guy who claims he is a "trader" who bought the car from a dealer in Dublin.

What should we do here. We feel we have a case to make in terms of getting either this guy or the dealer to pay for these repairs.

If this was a cheap car, we would have let it go. If the car only needed an oil service and brake pads etc, we would leave it go but the car needs a new timing belt and a new fly wheel with the fly wheel cost a huge 800 euros for the part alone. The total cost of repairs is in excess of 2000 euros.

Atlantic Dawn

It would be the same as buying in a private sale, in general it's best to never buy a car private from anyone except the registered owner of the car. Massive risk buying any car private from someone not the registered owner.

van_beano

How was the €9k paid? If it was a cheque could you get it stopped by the bank?

Toyotafanboi

I don't want to beat you up but did you not have any kind of pre purchase inspection done? €9k is massive money to hand over on blind faith.

I'd echo the above in that there may not be a lot you can actually do, it's akin to a private sale and it's well known that a lot of these "trader" types with no premises etc are nothing but sharks.

As an aside, nearly all BMW's are chain driven, not belt. Does it need a timing chain? Is it a 2.0 diesel?

Very unfortunate thing to have happen but the best thing you can possibly do to get the car fixed, is to cover the costs yourself and suck it up, unfortunately.

Have you contacted the trader to let him know? I'd expect he'll wash his hands of you.

In terms of the ad terminology, the car could have had a recent full service, a flywheel and a timing chain wouldn't usually fall under the "full service" umbrella, but any half decent mechanic should have noticed that they needed doing. Maybe they did notice and maybe that's why the car is for sale?

Dravokivich

Is this the same car you didn't know what the features were?

I'd recommend involving someone you trust when you get around to buying another car.

2012paddy2012

No case. Buyer be ware. Should have had mechanic check it. Got caught years ago at a well known dealership...its sad but common

AmyTadhg

As others have said, if bought from a "trader" aka sideline wheeler dealer, not registered or anything... falls under private sale of buyer beware.

It may have been serviced, unless mechanic checked filters & oil to confirm it wasn't

You have no case against the dealer who is listed as the registered owner as they did not sell you the car, they are most likely still registered on the logbook as the "trader" bought it direct from a dealer from one of their sold as seen trade ins.

He prob told you the belt had 30K left on it based on what he would call average life span of a timing belt if the last belt change is recorded on the cover in the engine or service book he could have got figures there... or pulled one out of his a**e. Now if it a chain in it & not an actual belt he def BS that sale. However, timing belt change intervals vary based on manufactuer recommendations & also the age of the belt as well they persish over the years, personally I would take no one at their word when buying private, you need to know what you are looking out for or bring someone with you.

You say the repair cost you & your partner, so I assume you already paid it & haven't actually rang the person you bought it off? I'd imagine he would have just told you to go & jump but it would have been worth a call to see & tie up where you stood there... incase by some extremely unlikely miracle he was a half decent sort.

JamesKerry

The car was paid for with a credit union cheque in the name of "x" so we are going in tomorrow to see if it has been cashed. If not, we will cancel it and wait for him to make contact. When he makes contact, I will tell him that I will re-issue a cheque to him in the amount of 7200 instead of a cheque for 8 (We paid 1k cash). Why 7200? because he stated the timing chain would not need a chain for at least another 30k miles and the fly wheel repair is something you really need to look for. Specifically in this situation when it was leaking oil back into the gear box.

I looked for the mileage of the last timing chain replacement on the engine and it is not there. (Do so before purchase) that is why i asked him when it was last done. Unfortunately, there is no record of it on the book either.

stimpson

A private seller is required to give you accurate and truthful information in answer to any questions that you ask, so it's not accurate to say you have no comeback. If it said the belt was good in the ad then I would think that would be covered.

However you can't go to the small claims court and you would need to go though a solicitor if he's not playing ball. I can't imagine it would be easy.

knipex

JamesKerry wrote: »

Hi there,

I am hoping for some advice from anyone with regards to a recent car purchase I made.

I bought a car for 9000 euro on Friday last, and on the same day I had to have it toed to a garage for a timing belt and flywheel repair. This repair cost my partner and I in excess of 2000 euros. (BMW car - private mechanic)

During the deal with "X" he stated to us that the timing belt would not need to be changed for a further 30K miles. Along with this he stated both in words and on the ad that the car had a full service.

Of course, this was not the case as we know now.

We have completed an ownership check and it seems the car is still registered to a dealer but we bought it off a guy who claims he is a "trader" who bought the car from a dealer in Dublin.

What should we do here. We feel we have a case to make in terms of getting either this guy or the dealer to pay for these repairs.

If this was a cheap car, we would have let it go. If the car only needed an oil service and brake pads etc, we would leave it go but the car needs a new timing belt and a new fly wheel with the fly wheel cost a huge 800 euros for the part alone. The total cost of repairs is in excess of 2000 euros.

Did you contact the seller when the car broke down ??? Did you give them the option to repair ???

bazz26

What engine is in the BMW that has a timing belt as most BMW engines have timing chains for a few decades at this stage? I'm guessing that it's a N47 2.0 litre diesel engine with the infamous timing chain issue.

Not trying to be the finger waver at the OP but why oh why do people blindly buy without getting a car checked out first rather than getting a mechanic to look it over after buying it? A rattle sound from the timing chain would be noticeable to a mechanic and also would a DMF on its way out. 9k is a huge amount of money to be dropping on a car especially from a private purchase and the buyer knows absolutely nothing about cars.

JamesKerry

knipex wrote: »

Did you contact the seller when the car broke down ??? Did you give them the option to repair ???

Yes we have to both questions. No response from him.

Toyotafanboi

stimpson wrote: »

A private seller is required to give you accurate and truthful information in answer to any questions that you ask

How can anyone prove that what the seller said wasn't truthful to the best of their knowledge. The private seller isn't obliged to know anything about what they are selling.

ED E

Block the payment and you'll soon have a letter from his solicitor.

JamesKerry

bazz26 wrote: »

What engine is in the BMW that has a timing belt as most BMW engines have timing chains for a few decades at this stage? I'm guessing that it's a N47 2.0 litre diesel engine with the infamous timing chain issue.

Not trying to be the finger waver at the OP but why oh why do people blindly buy without getting a car checked out first rather than getting a mechanic to look it over after buying it? A rattle sound from the timing chain would be noticeable to a mechanic and also would a DMF on its way out. 9k is a huge amount of money to be dropping on a car especially from a private purchase and the buyer knows absolutely nothing about cars.

Just editing it. Its a timing chain, don't know why i said belt. Yes N47 engine but production after June 2011 when BMW did change a few things to "help" with the issue. I actually am quite knowledgeable on cars, engines specifically. The chain was barely rattling, honestly, nothing too out of the ordinary. Its why i asked him in the first place as there was no record of numbers on mileage from last change. Turns out it was stretched terribly with tensioners pretty dodgey also.

runawaybishop

JamesKerry wrote: »

Just editing it. Its a timing chain, don't know why i said belt. Yes N47 engine but production after June 2011 when BMW did change a few things to "help" with the issue. I actually am quite knowledgeable on cars, engines specifically. The chain was barely rattling, honestly, nothing too out of the ordinary. Its why i asked him in the first place as there was no record of numbers on mileage from last change. Turns out it was stretched terribly with tensioners pretty dodgey also.

Whats the mileage and what does BMW specify the interval for the chain is?

PokeHerKing

If you paid by cheque you should have cancelled it the second the car broke down!

More than likely it was a draft though, in which case they can't be cancelled.

Mooooo

I thought the idea of chains was they were lifelong? I realise they had a rep for going on those cars but iif one didn't know they may get caught,

runawaybishop

Mooooo wrote: »

I thought the idea of chains was they were lifelong? I realise they had a rep for going on those cars but iif one didn't know they may get caught,

Looks like they have quite a rep

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/motors/bmw-s-timing-chain-problem-comes-back-to-haunt-carmaker-1.2869493

stimpson

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

How can anyone prove that what the seller said wasn't truthful to the best of their knowledge. The private seller isn't obliged to know anything about what they are selling.

He said the timing belt/chain was mentioned in the ad as being ok for 30K.

Toyotafanboi

stimpson wrote: »

He said the timing belt/chain was mentioned in the ad as being ok for 30K.

Yes, but just because they said that, how do we verify that they have a notion what they are talking about? We can have no expectation that a private individual knows what they are talking about.

You can expect what a dealer mentions in an ad to have some kind of credibility as they are a "professional" in that field. But in a privately posted classified ad, the onus is really on the purchaser to verify the condition of the item for sale.

colm_mcm

I'm confused!
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=103528592

magicbastarder

JamesKerry wrote: »

Just editing it. Its a timing chain, don't know why i said belt. Yes N47 engine but production after June 2011 when BMW did change a few things to "help" with the issue.

i know someone whose N47 engine went, in a car built in september 2011 (iirc); he was told that BMW still had engines in stock from before the fix which were going into cars for several months after.

beechwood55

I do. I have two years built up. You wouldn't mind but I have a bmw 320d sitting outside the door that i haven't been able to afford to run since october.. Needs an alternator and possibly a turbo now though. Don't think anyone from my area works there, not that i know of anyway.

You posted that this day last week. Would it not have been a better idea to get that car fixed up (would have cost a good bit less than 9k I would imagine....)

JamesKerry

runawaybishop wrote: »

Whats the mileage and what does BMW specify the interval for the chain is?

There specify time interval is 150k +.

I have done this before on my previous BMW. I've had 3.. All perfect until this :pac:

JamesKerry

beechwood55 wrote: »

I do. I have two years built up. You wouldn't mind but I have a bmw 320d sitting outside the door that i haven't been able to afford to run since october.. Needs an alternator and possibly a turbo now though. Don't think anyone from my area works there, not that i know of anyway.

You posted that this day last week. Would it not have been a better idea to get that car fixed up (would have cost a good bit less than 9k I would imagine....)

Had the money to change the car after all. So, I did so.

stimpson

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

Yes, but just because they said that, how do we verify that they have a notion what they are talking about? We can have no expectation that a private individual knows what they are talking about.

You can expect what a dealer mentions in an ad to have some kind of credibility as they are a "professional" in that field. But in a privately posted classified ad, the onus is really on the purchaser to verify the condition of the item for sale.

If he said it or had it in an ad and you can prove it in court with a witness's or a copy of the ad then you may have some comeback in a private sale. That's all I'm saying.

JamesKerry

magicbastarder wrote: »

i know someone whose N47 engine went, in a car built in september 2011 (iirc); he was told that BMW still had engines in stock from before the fix which were going into cars for several months after.

Yeah that could be a possibility. I think those engines were the N47 1 or something along those lines. It is possible it could be prior March 2011 engine, haven't checked exactly what N47 it is.

JamesKerry

stimpson wrote: »

If he said it or had it in an ad and you can prove it in court with a witness's or a copy of the ad then you may have some comeback in a private sale. That's all I'm saying.

yeah I do have witnesses who were there with me at the time (not some young fellas - older middle aged guys - I don't know if that makes any difference through). The entire thing was caught on tape is well by the shop. Obviously no audio I would think.

JamesKerry

colm_mcm wrote: »

I'm confused!
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=103528592

Secured Finance - That simple

bazz26

This thread is getting more bizarre by the page. It sounds like the car was being sold cheaper because of the underlying issues but the OP thought it might not have been as bad as it turned out to be.

OP, a rattle in a chain no matter how slight is still not right and only gets worse. Also unless the seller has a crystal ball how the hell would they know it will last another 30k? Also these chains do not suddenly die at 150k, they can fail on cars with half that mileage too and have also failed on cars as new as 2013/2014.

JamesKerry

bazz26 wrote: »

This thread is getting more bizarre by the page. It sounds like the car was being sold cheaper because of the underlying issues but the OP thought it might not have been as bad as it turned out to be.

OP, a rattle in a chain no matter how slight is still not right and only gets worse. Also unless the seller has a crystal ball how the hell would they know it will last another 30k? Also these chains do not suddenly die at 150k, they can fail on cars with half that mileage too and have also failed on cars as new as 2013/2014.

Of course, these cars are making over 10500 and more. I was buying on the assumption that some work may be needed, for instance back tires, oil service (even though it did say fully service) maybe an accessories belt but that is still in pretty good shape, etc. But nothing along the lines of a timing chain and flywheel, two of some of the top biggest jobs to do on an engine during its life span.

It was so slight when i was buying it that you couldn't say "yep thats the timing chain" unless you were a training mechanic. As someone already mentioned, any good mechanic would have known that it needed doing and the owner stated he had it serviced. Going by that, we could assume he had god damn pretty good knowledge.

The thing with all this is, if he had said it was going to be a problem and allowed us to accommodate that price to fix when financing, then it wouldn't be an issue really, would it. Of course I would have brought him down more on price but not 1200 as 9000 for a car of this age is reasonable even with fixes to do (not to this extent, unprepared) I would have offered him 8250 with price in mind of 8500, saving 500 on purchase and having the finance organized for repairs.

Timing Chain:

Yes of course a chain can go at any point but Bmw say at 150K+ , it more than likely needs changing if it hasn't been changed to date.

bazz26

A timing chain is supposed to last the lifetime of the engine, so much so that BMW even fitted it at the back of the engine which is right up against the cabin bulkhead. BMW didn't even admit that there was a problem with the chains in these engines. Have you any links to where they claim they can last for at least 150k?

mossy50

you should be able to hear a timing chain rattle on start up hence we had to have ours done