Sound and Vision Fund

Elmo

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

You seem to have misunderstood my post.

The question is whether that definition in 153 means a TV programme, or a TV channel.
Can you point to any part of the act that properly defines that?

I searched the act in its entirety for what I expect in any act ..... consistency of meaning.
So if a 'free television service' means one thing in any part of that Act then it should mean the same thing every time it is used in that Act.

That does not seem to be the case, thus introducing ambiguity.
It is difficult to show that the BAI interpretation is wrong (or right).

I know I can't see if the act makes a difference between a TV programme and a TV channel in relation to Service.

My point is that the BAI are saying they are taking an appropriate service as defined in Section 153 based on 77, but if they were to do that the fund only relates to community TV not to Pay TV.

There are reasons the Broadcasting Act is set up the way it is. ASO/DSO and MMD switchoff. But also (for the purpose of the Fund) the fact that on analogue TV3 was not available to the entire country and that it was unlikely that Community TV would be Free To Air.

Johnboy1951

Elmo wrote: »

I know I can't see if the act makes a difference between a TV programme and a TV channel in relation to Service.

It's not just me then

My point is that the BAI are saying they are taking an appropriate service as defined in Section 153 based on 77, but if they were to do that the fund only relates to community TV not to Pay TV.

But as it is all the one Act, then the definition should apply to all parts of the Act.

There are reasons the Broadcasting Act is set up the way it is. ASO/DSO and MMD switchoff. But also (for the purpose of the Fund) the fact that on analogue TV3 was not available to the entire country and that it was unlikely that Community TV would be Free To Air.

Elmo

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

It's not just me then




But as it is all the one Act, then the definition should apply to all parts of the Act.

Yes but the act is clear enough to state that the definition of an Appropriate Service only relates to Community TV, not Pay TV providers.

I will take a look further.

But you and the BAI are suggesting that nearly all UK Pay TV providers could access the fund e.g. Dave which is "FREE" across all PAY providers in this country. And if not Dave Sky Sports 1, which could also provide FTV access like eirSport.

Johnboy1951

Elmo wrote: »

Yes but the act is clear enough to state that the definition of an Appropriate Service only relates to Community TV, not Pay TV providers.

I will take a look further.

But you and the BAI are suggesting that nearly all UK Pay TV providers could access the fund e.g. Dave which is "FREE" across all PAY providers in this country. And if not Dave Sky Sports 1, which could also provide FTV access like eirSport.

My only suggestion was that it is difficult to show one way or the other that the BAI understanding is right or wrong.

IMO the BAI needs to be challenged or the Act changed to make it unambiguous and ensure that future funding is only for programmes that are transmitted FTA.

I am not personally concerned whether the 'approved' provider operates a pay TV scheme or not, provided the funded programming is broadcast FTA.

Elmo

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I am not personally concerned whether the 'approved' provider operates a pay TV scheme or not, provided the funded programming is broadcast FTA.

I agree but the act only mentions approved providers in relation to community TV for the fund.

Elmo

I don't know I think the act is clear as to what a broadcaster is and what a TV programme is and in essence a broadcaster is a compilation of programmes.

“ broadcaster ” means a person who supplies a compilation of programme material for the purpose of its being transmitted, relayed or distributed as a broadcasting service (whether that person transmits, relays or distributes that material as such a service or not);

“broadcasting service” means a service which comprises a compilation of programme material of any description and which is transmitted, relayed or distributed by means of an electronic communications network, directly or indirectly for simultaneous or near-simultaneous reception by the general public, whether that material is actually received or not, and where the programmes are provided in a pre-scheduled and linear order

“ programme material ” means audio-visual material or audio material and includes advertisements and material which, when transmitted, will constitute a direct offer to the public for the sale or supply to them of goods or other property (whether real or personal) or services;

“ provide a broadcasting service ” means to supply a compilation of programme material for the purpose of its being transmitted, relayed or distributed as a broadcasting service;

“ public service broadcaster ” means RTÉ, TG4, the Houses of the Oireachtas Channel and the Irish Film Channel;

“television programme service” means a service which comprises a compilation of audio-visual programme material of any description and is transmitted, distributed or relayed by means of wireless telegraphy directly or indirectly for reception by the general public;

“television programme service contract” and “television programme service contractor” have the same meaning as they have in section 70 ;



(2) A scheme—

(a) may only fund television programmes under subsection (1) which are broadcast—

(i) on a free television service which provides near universal coverage in the State, or

(ii) on an appropriate network provider or MMD system as part of a community content provision contract under section 72 ,

and which, other than in the case of programmes for children or educational programmes or programmes in the Irish language broadcast by commercial and community broadcasters, are broadcast during peak viewing times,

Johnboy1951

Elmo wrote: »

I don't know I think the act is clear as to what a broadcaster is and what a TV programme is and in essence a broadcaster is a compilation of programmes.

It makes interesting reading to compare the two different definitions of “free television service” in the Act.

153 Broadcasting Fund

“free television service” means a television broadcasting service for
the reception of which no charge is made by the person providing
the service, and reception of which is available to at least 90 per cent
of the population of the State;

160 Major Events Television Coverage

“free television service” means a television broadcasting service for
the reception of which no charge is made at anytime by the person
providing the service, and which is available on a free-to-air basis;

It is therefore obvious that different criteria were intended to apply.

I was completely wrong to expect one definition to apply throughout the Act!


OK, a funded programme must be carried free of charge with near universal coverage in the State.

Unlike the definition in 160 for Major Events, there is no requirement in 153 Broadcasting Fund, that the funded programme be carried FTA, or that the programme cannot be carried behind a paywall at anytime.

This is deliberately done with two separate definitions for the same phrase in the two sections within the one Act.
That blows my previous hypothesis out of the water. I thought it would have the same meaning throughout the Act.

I continue to believe this should not be done, and all the funded programmes should be required to be broadcast FTA.

That leaves the requirement for the eir coverage to be available to at least 90% of the population of the state.

With regard to eir I do not know how that could be accurately measured.
It was much easier when Setanta was the provider, but because eir have included access (however limited) to the sports channels, to their broadband customers in addition to the paid subscribers, the numbers are more difficult to ascertain.

All Sky subscribers will have access.
All eir broadband customers will have access.
Will Vodafone TV customers have access?

There will be some overlap between the eir broadband numbers and the Sky satellite numbers. How much I have no idea.
Eir could easily arrange for the programmes to be FTA on Satellite if they wished or were forced to do so. That would increase the numbers somewhat, as it would include all those without a Sky subscription or an eir account, but with Satellite reception.

Johnboy1951

Regarding coverage from eir this was reported Jan 29th 2017

Eir said last week that just over 200,000 customers are now viewing its sports service on mobile devices and laptops.

http://www.independent.ie/business/media/eir-gets-green-light-for-extra-sports-channels-35404906.html

With the advent of the two extra channels to cover more GAA games, I guess that figure has risen and will rise some more.
The eir FTTH roll out will also increase numbers no doubt.

Of course a percentage of those using the streamed service will also have the Satellite service available, but I have no clue how this overlap might be reckoned.

Elmo

BAI respond to How does a non-pay TV subscriber gain access to eirSport S&V funded productions? with They have stated they will comply!

Johnboy1951

Elmo wrote: »

BAI respond to How does a non-pay TV subscriber gain access to eirSport S&V funded productions? with They have stated they will comply!

Hehehehehehehe

I wonder if anyone asked them how they would do that? naw ....

Elmo

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Hehehehehehehe

I wonder if anyone asked them how they would do that? naw ....

Also just to point out that you have made much more robust arguments for giving funding to these productions based on your interpretation of the act. (and from what I can gather you don't agree that eir should get funding).

However, if you go back to the response that the BAI provided on the act they don't prove their own seemingly legitimate ability to provide that money to a PAY TV provider.

I am going to try to re-read the act on this, but it is a dreadfully worded act that seems contradict itself in every follow up section of the act.

Johnboy1951

Elmo wrote: »

Also just to point out that you have made much more robust arguments for giving funding to these productions based on your interpretation of the act.

It was never my intention to excuse their funding of programmes that are transmitted from behind some limitation such as FTV.
I firmly believe that all such programmes should be FTA.

I was though trying to figure out how the BAI might be able to justify their stance.

However, if you go back to the response that the BAI provided on the act they don't prove their own seemingly legitimate ability to provide that money to a PAY TV provider.

I am going to try to re-read the act on this, but it is a dreadfully worded act that seems contradict itself in every follow up section of the act.

I admit that I did not recently read the act in its entirety which I probably should do.
Regardless what the act says, it is my opinion it should be changed to specify FTA for the Sound & Vision programmes.
That would get rid of any ambiguity that might be present at the moment.

I have come to the view that it is only by this means that things will be properly sorted.

Elmo

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I was though trying to figure out how the BAI might be able to justify their stance.

:::
That would get rid of any ambiguity that might be present at the moment.

And you did a better job than the BAI, surely the BAI should argue as you have done to remove such ambiguity.

Thanks for the debate. And I am going to re-read and try to remove that ambiguity from allowing for "FTV".

Elmo

So looking at this part of the act

Part 10, Section 154, Subsection 2, Paragraph a, sub-paragraph ii

10 (154)(2)(a)(ii) only refers to Community Services under Section 72 which are provided on an appropriate network under Section 77 as defined in section 153

Now Part 10, Section 154, Subsection 2, Paragraph a, sub-paragraph i explains that it can only support programming on a free television service which provides near universal coverage with free television defined as "a television broadcasting service for the reception of which no charge is made by the person providing the service, and reception of which is available to at least 90 per cent of the population of the State" in section 153

The act does not provide a definition of Television Broadcast Service however right though out it is almost always viewed a full time service.

This part of the act does not refer to any other parts of the act in relation to what can be funding.

on an appropriate network is only for Community TV

on an appropriate network provider or MMD system as part of a community content provision contract

Johnboy1951

:mad: I had written a reply to yesterday's post but it seems not to have been sent :mad:
Too late now ...
#######

Elmo wrote:

So looking at this part of the act

Part 10, Section 154, Subsection 2, Paragraph a, sub-paragraph ii

10 (154)(2)(a)(ii) only refers to Community Services under Section 72 which are provided on an appropriate network under Section 77 as defined in section 153

Now Part 10, Section 154, Subsection 2, Paragraph a, sub-paragraph i explains that it can only support programming on a free television service which provides near universal coverage with free television defined as "a television broadcasting service for the reception of which no charge is made by the person providing the service, and reception of which is available to at least 90 per cent of the population of the State" in section 153

The act does not provide a definition of Television Broadcast Service however right though out it is almost always viewed a full time service.

This part of the act does not refer to any other parts of the act in relation to what can be funding.

on an appropriate network is only for Community TV

on an appropriate network provider or MMD system as part of a community content provision contract

The term Television Broadcast Service is not used in the Act that I recall so would not be defined. Did you mean to use a different term?

To me the act is specifically written to allow loopholes.
It seems deliberate.
I doubt that any group of civil servants could produce the Act as is, in error.

They were well capable of specifying FTA for some sections, but did not do so for the S&V funding section.
That has to be deliberate.

Of course they would not accept there is any problem with the Act

Elmo

Sorry I mean, Television Broadcasting Service(s)

Johnboy1951

Elmo wrote: »

Sorry I mean, Television Broadcasting Service(s)

I had the opportunity to check the Act today and did a search for that phrase. Thanks for the correction

This time I am just taking examples of how the term is used in the act to get a 'feel' for what is meant, as you are correct it is not defined (that I could find).

The Commission of the Houses of the Oireachtas may establish, fund and provide a television broadcasting service to be known as, in the Irish language, Bealach Thithe an Oireachtais or, in the English language, the Houses of the Oireachtas Channel

the national television broadcasting service commonly known as RTÉ One and RTÉ Two established and maintained by RTÉ

From the above references, I can only take one meaning from that phrase .... a complete TV Channel and not just a programme.

153 Broadcasting Fund

“free television service” means a television broadcasting service for the reception of which no charge is made by the person providing the service, and reception of which is available to at least 90 percent of the population of the State;

160

“free television service” means a television broadcasting service for the reception of which no charge is made at anytime by the person
providing the service

Following on from that, the “free television service” must be a TV Channel for which no charge is made.
This really contradicts any notion that the “free television service” could be a single programme.

So now referring to the definition provided in 153 Broadcasting Fund

This must then mean a complete channel for which no charge is made.

Of course if the Act defined the term there would be no 'interpretation' required

In any case, from this viewpoint, the S&V funded programmes (schemes) are
154

(2) A scheme—
(a) may only fund television programmes under subsection (1)
which are broadcast—
(i) on a free television service which provides near universal coverage in the State, or
(ii) on an appropriate network provider or MMD system as part of a community content provision contract under section 72,

I have not delved into the possibility (small as it might be) that eir might get approval under (ii), but believing eir would not be "an appropriate network provider", the only remaining scheme funding is under (i).
But eir do not have a free TV channel for which they do not charge and which is available to 90% of the population of the State.

Of course with all the vagueness and ambiguities in the terminology used in the Act, proving the above might be a difficult task.

The best course of action, IMO, would be to change the Act to specify FTA broadcasting for all funded programmes, and if necessary specify that those FTA programmes be carried on a "free television service" (a TV channel for which no charge is made).
The funded programmes could be allowed to be carried on other channels also, if preferred, but some control over how that is managed would be necessary to prevent the FTA being broadcast at say 3 am and never again, while being broadcast on Pay TV for ever after.


The fact that a case, however weak, can be made for both sides of this, indicates to me that the Act itself is a problem.
If it was properly written there could be no ambiguity.

Thanks for the continued conversation on this.

Note: I continue to feel there is some relevant part I am not considering.

Elmo

BTW eir, sky, vodafon, virgin are all appropriate networks in relation to this part of the act for funding for TV programmes made available on Community TV channels. eirSport is not a community TV.

Section 77 is in reference to must carry obligations and DTT is not under that part of the act, or this part, an appropriate network for community TV, however sub-paragragh (i) in section 153 would allow for a community service not available on such networks but only available on DTT!

Also there are only a few exceptions to the rule that allows S&V programmes not air during peak time, children's programming and education afaik.

Elmo

So I clearly disagree with the funding of these programmes with eir attached as a broadcaster: -

1. When and where will these programmes be available?
To answer this question you have to have a regular schedule that is the same every week or everyday for it to be worthwhile to the audience.
2. What is eirSport?
I have an issue with the funding because eirSport is a Preimum Rate TV channel, not just an ordinary basic TV channel.
3. What channels can apply for S&V funding?
The BAI are simple making the case that any Pay TV channel can apply for funding. Outside of the few local channels available in Ireland their is wide scope to provide such programming to any or all UK channels.
They are also concluding that if a channel is not available on all platforms it can receive funding.

Anyway they clearly do not want to answer any of these question. Time for a PQ.