Marathon Improvers Thread.

Kennyg71

zulutango wrote: »

My mistake was to do a hard speed session last Thursday and then not listen to my body when I was heading out for a long run on Sunday. I'd have thought a three day break for the muscles was sufficient, but I knew when I was setting off on Sunday that I was far from fresh. I probably would have gotten away with it if I just did the distance and abandoned the plan to do the last 2 miles at 10k pace. That was the final straw for the muscles I guess. There were warnings there. I should have heeded them.

Was giving me bit of bother, on last Wednesday run, righted it self over next few days, no issue on Sunday 20 miles, bit niggly on yesterday recovery, pulled up after 4 miles MP as wasn't feeling right and after a shower couldn't walk with pain, hope is just spasm.

JMSE

Hi peeps, I see a few are suffering from IT band issues, just like I had 2 years ago pre DCM. Have a read of this article, ok its just ANOTHER article on the net about how to treat something, but it worked for me i.e. the stretch he talks about which you do 3 times daily, 5x20 second reps on each leg. I didnt come across the article until maybe Feb last year but it marked the end of IT band for me. It cant hurt and it might help....

http://running.competitor.com/2011/06/injury-prevention/ask-the-running-doc-how-do-i-get-rid-of-it-band-syndrome_29758

Djoucer

Those exercises for itb actually work. Amazing how quickly the sympthons disappear. I'd also recommend doing hip hikes. Works wonders.

I'm feeling all sorts of niggles. You really need to listen to the body at this stage.

An extra day off or doing an easy run instead of a session really makes a difference.

hot buttered scones

Felt a bit niggly tonight myself, even though I got the all clear from the physio yesterday. I'm hoping its just a bit of DOMs from yesterdays session and maybe still a bit sore from dry needling. Its not so much the niggles that are bothering me though - I'm just really tired this week. Lack of sleep and 3 hard weekends on the trot is catching up with me, I think. I might take Djoucer's advice and take tomorrow off. I've been adding an extra day of easy running to the P+D up to 55 plan which is supposed to be done tomorrow, so I won't be missing anything important. I'm on nights anyway so I'd be pushing myself to get up and get out. I'll see. Other than that I'm just going to try and ease off on the pace for the next couple of runs.

Murph_D

Jaysus lads, ye're scaring the shyte out of me. Thankfully DCM isn't a goal race or I'd probably be in the same boat. Look after yourselves. +1 on HBS's point above - nothing like a day or two off when you're not feeling it, or it's not feeling you.

hot buttered scones

Murph_D wrote: »

Jaysus lads, ye're scaring the shyte out of me. Thankfully DCM isn't a goal race or I'd probably be in the same boat. Look after yourselves. +1 on HBS's point above - nothing like a day or two off when you're not feeling it, or it's not feeling you.

Nothing like a dose of taper madness to get the mind racing (and I'm not even tapering yet :eek: )

Jakey Rolling

Wouldn't mind a chance to taper!

Been nursing an ankle sprain since before Charleville - rest and strengthening exercises don't seem to be making any difference. Going to try building up the mileage again over the next week. If it doesn't get any worse I'll toe the line in Dublin, otherwise I'll be starting my winter break early. Shame as my 1:31 at Charleville gave me hope of an improvement to my 3:27 PB in Dublin.

BTW, not a running injury as such. I turned my ankle while demonstrating dynamic warm ups to the U10's kids at club training!

Henry42

Woohoo! Finished my longest run and can start to taper now.

But, a question for anyone in the know. I am planning a tough interval session on Wednesday, 2.5 weeks out. I assume this is okay.
If I do another one the following week, 10 days out, is that too close and is there any training benefit likely that close to the race?
The session will be 7 x 1km intervals with 400 metres jogging rest between each.

ittakestwo

Henry42 wrote: »

Woohoo! Finished my longest run and can start to taper now.

But, a question for anyone in the know. I am planning a tough interval session on Wednesday, 2.5 weeks out. I assume this is okay.
If I do another one the following week, 10 days out, is that too close and is there any training benefit likely that close to the race?
The session will be 7 x 1km intervals with 400 metres jogging rest between each.

Also curious to know what others are doing regarding the taper. From the bit I am reading it recommends not turning off like a tap, but keep running on the same days but just less distance. Slow down volume but not intensity. So if you were going to track to do 7x1k this week maybe do 5x1k the week after at same speed.

Must be great having done the last run, I am doing a 15day taper so still one to do this Saturday. Last week was a bad week so close to marathon with the wind, both the track day and long run were really tough with the wind. Hopefully weather will give us a break this week.

peterc14

Im following the Asics 3.30 plan...it has 10 x 800m @ 10K pace tomorrow! It has 10 x 400m @ 5K pace next Tuesday and 12 x 200m on the Tuesday before the big day!!
It seems a lot during the so called Taper stage...but as I keep telling myself "Trust the Plan".
Does anyone think this is too much?

jameshayes

peterc14 wrote: »

Im following the Asics 3.30 plan...it has 10 x 800m @ 10K pace tomorrow! It has 10 x 400m @ 5K pace next Tuesday and 12 x 200m on the Tuesday before the big day!!
It seems a lot during the so called Taper stage...but as I keep telling myself "Trust the Plan".
Does anyone think this is too much?

I'm on the FIRST plan and it has me doing 6*400m at 10k pace - 45 seconds the week of my marathon so it looks like we're all in the same sinking boat :pac:

boydkev

I have a question regarding my runners leading up to the Big day, I currently have a 210 miles done in them, Mizuno Catalyst 2 and there will be approx another 70 miles to do in them looking at the rotation i have with my Asics DS Trainers. Should i not worry about them or should i get a new pair now and get 50+ Miles done in them before DCM.

RayCun

boydkev wrote: »

I have a question regarding my runners leading up to the Big day, I currently have a 210 miles done in them, Mizuno Catalyst 2 and there will be approx another 70 miles to do in them looking at the rotation i have with my Asics DS Trainers. Should i not worry about them or should i get a new pair now and get 50+ Miles done in them before DCM.

Get another pair of runners now.
Alternate between them.
Your runners will last longer way, and you can decide the week before the marathon which ones you want to run in.

TFBubendorfer

boydkev wrote: »

I have a question regarding my runners leading up to the Big day, I currently have a 210 miles done in them, Mizuno Catalyst 2 and there will be approx another 70 miles to do in them looking at the rotation i have with my Asics DS Trainers. Should i not worry about them or should i get a new pair now and get 50+ Miles done in them before DCM.

In my view, 210 miles is barely broken into. I know the general advice is to change runners every 400 miles but I have found that to be nonsense, at least in my case. I change my runners roughly every 1000 miles and I get injured a lot less than most (1 injury in 10 years, and that had nothing to do with the shoes).

Those shoes will do you just fine for DCM.

However, if you decided to get new ones, get them NOW. Don't run a marathon in new shoes.

Ed McGroarty

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Don't run a marathon in new shoes.

I ran my last 24hr in a pair of new runners. Worked out fine. They had a 10mile run in them before the start. I suppose it's not worth risking after all the training but I won't worry now if I've to do it again.

Edit:
I'd my old runners with me to change into during the race if it didn't work out, less of an option during the marathon.
On reflection I probably wouldn't run in new ones for a marathon.

hot buttered scones

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

In my view, 210 miles is barely broken into. I know the general advice is to change runners every 400 miles but I have found that to be nonsense, at least in my case. I change my runners roughly every 1000 miles and I get injured a lot less than most (1 injury in 10 years, and that had nothing to do with the shoes).

Those shoes will do you just fine for DCM.

However, if you decided to get new ones, get them NOW. Don't run a marathon in new shoes.

For me it depends on the brand. I have a couple of pairs of adidas suprnova glides that have 400 miles on them and have a good bit of life left in them. I've gone through a few pairs of Nike Pegasus and I've worn out the outsole on the heel in and around 300 miles on each pair. Although that's probably down to my running style than anything else.

But yeah, if you want a new pair for the marathon break them in now. I dont't find a shoe 100% comfortable until I have at least 50 miles on them.

clickerquicklic

A couple of questions to the more experienced marathon runners if I may.

I'm on taper for marathon , last week did my last long long run. This week took Monday and Tuesday off , Wednesday 10 miles easy , Thursday 12*400's , Friday rest , this is a fairly usual week for me except I would normally run a session or 10 miles easy Tuesday as well. So set off this morning for 6 miles easy / 7 miles MP / Parkrun steady (16 miles planned) . My legs felt heavy and tired I've not really experienced this before even on the slow miles I was sluggish I expected to feel much fresher after taking an extra day off. Is it normal for legs to be tired on first week of taper?

Second question , one big regret I have is lack of marathon pace miles , I think I have only done one run with marathon pace miles in it. How hard should marathon pace feel ? I know its hard to explain but on a training run should it be a noticeably hard effort . For me the 7 miles at marathon pace which I picked a pace of 7:30min/miles they where ok pace, I didn't feel like I was running that fast or that slow , I tried a talk test and could say a few sentences , on uphill sections I had to remind myself to stay on pace on the downhill sections I had to reign it in a bit , on the flat it was just nice. When I stopped after 7 miles I felt like I had done a workout I was sweating a lot (it was a bit warm today) and was glad to run slower for the next few minutes as I jogged to the start line for the parkrun . I'm just a bit unsure now if i've picked a pace too fast for marathon or its standard for marathon paced runs in training to feel like you have done a decent workout.

Thanks

TFBubendorfer

clickerquicklic wrote: »

A couple of questions to the more experienced marathon runners if I may.

I'm on taper for marathon , last week did my last long long run. This week took Monday and Tuesday off , Wednesday 10 miles easy , Thursday 12*400's , Friday rest , this is a fairly usual week for me except I would normally run a session or 10 miles easy Tuesday as well. So set off this morning for 6 miles easy / 7 miles MP / Parkrun steady (16 miles planned) . My legs felt heavy and tired I've not really experienced this before even on the slow miles I was sluggish I expected to feel much fresher after taking an extra day off. Is it normal for legs to be tired on first week of taper?

Second question , one big regret I have is lack of marathon pace miles , I think I have only done one run with marathon pace miles in it. How hard should marathon pace feel ? I know its hard to explain but on a training run should it be a noticeably hard effort . For me the 7 miles at marathon pace which I picked a pace of 7:30min/miles they where ok pace, I didn't feel like I was running that fast or that slow , I tried a talk test and could say a few sentences , on uphill sections I had to remind myself to stay on pace on the downhill sections I had to reign it in a bit , on the flat it was just nice. When I stopped after 7 miles I felt like I had done a workout I was sweating a lot (it was a bit warm today) and was glad to run slower for the next few minutes as I jogged to the start line for the parkrun . I'm just a bit unsure now if i've picked a pace too fast for marathon or its standard for marathon paced runs in training to feel like you have done a decent workout.

Thanks

Taper madness is kicking in early for you

My legs often feel sluggish after an easy day or two, not sure why but it happens. It means nothing at all. As long as you feel better a day or 2 later then just forget about it.

As for your marathon pace, that's very hard to tell, especially for your first marathon. It's much too late now to start running a lot of PMP miles, so don't even think of doing that.

I find that marathon pace in training always feels hard. Whenever I run a few miles at that effort I invariably wonder how on earth I'm going to hold that effort for 26+ miles! On race day, however, you will have fresher legs and, most importantly, race day adrenaline, which makes all the difference.

Just trust in your training now, don't consume yourself with self-doubts.

clickerquicklic

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

I find that marathon pace in training always feels hard. Whenever I run a few miles at that effort I invariably wonder how on earth I'm going to hold that effort for 26+ miles! On race day, however, you will have fresher legs and, most importantly, race day adrenaline, which makes all the difference.

So this is what taper madness is

Great answer thanks , this is what I was looking for. I know from the half marathon that I was struggling to hold 3 miles at half marathon pace in training but could manage 13 in the race , similar with other distances. The marathon is just the unknown so after 7 miles at planned marathon pace I was questions myself a little thinking could I do another hour or two at this pace , the answer was yes probably but it might be a struggle , but that was based on doing another hour or two this morning in non race conditions and not fully tapered or fuelled.

EDit

Not sure whether this right place to post this, but hey ho. Anyway, I am signed up for my first HM in Nov and I wanted some advice on where to start with my HM pace. For example, when I do a 5k run, I can do 4:30 to 4:45 comfortably, but if I go at that pace for 10k, I usually struggle badly in the latter stages. As such, when I am doing a 10k race, I usually aim for a pace around 5:00. As I am now going to be jumping up to 21k, should I just automatically start off around 5:15 or 5:30, or would you folks advise to start off slower?

Zebra3

EDit wrote: »

Not sure whether this right place to post this, but hey ho. Anyway, I am signed up for my first HM in Nov and I wanted some advice on where to start with my HM pace. For example, when I do a 5k run, I can do 4:30 to 4:45 comfortably, but if I go at that pace for 10k, I usually struggle badly in the latter stages. As such, when I am doing a 10k race, I usually aim for a pace around 5:00. As I am now going to be jumping up to 21k, should I just automatically start off around 5:15 or 5:30, or would you folks advise to start off slower?

Do some 15km runs to give yourself a better idea.

Swashbuckler

EDit wrote:

Not sure whether this right place to post this, but hey ho. Anyway, I am signed up for my first HM in Nov and I wanted some advice on where to start with my HM pace. For example, when I do a 5k run, I can do 4:30 to 4:45 comfortably, but if I go at that pace for 10k, I usually struggle badly in the latter stages. As such, when I am doing a 10k race, I usually aim for a pace around 5:00. As I am now going to be jumping up to 21k, should I just automatically start off around 5:15 or 5:30, or would you folks advise to start off slower?

Hard to advise you when you've not really given any indication of your training? What's your longest recent run in training?

EDit

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Hard to advise you when you've not really given any indication of your training? What's your longest recent run in training?

Well I did the Gaelforce Howth summit yesterday, but that was a different kettle of fish and pace from that won’t help. Did a 13k run last week with an average pace of 5:45, but I was nursing a cold and my breathing was not the best (and I felt awful by the end of it). I guess I should plan to ramp up by a few Km per week between now and the HM (about 5 weeks away) so as Zebra3 said I can get a few longer runs in and see where that puts me in terms of pace. Was just interested to hear what sort of difference in pace to expect between a 5/10K and a HM

Swashbuckler

EDit wrote:

Well I did the Gaelforce Howth summit yesterday, but that was a different kettle of fish and pace from that won’t help. Did a 13k run last week with an average pace of 5:45, but I was nursing a cold and my breathing was not the best (and I felt awful by the end of it). I guess I should plan to ramp up by a few Km per week between now and the HM (about 5 weeks away) so as Zebra3 said I can get a few longer runs in and see where that puts me in terms of pace. Was just interested to hear what sort of difference in pace to expect between a 5/10K and a HM

Yeah I get where you're coming from but the difference in pace will be very different for a guy who's regularly running big long training runs once a week when compared to someone who's maxing out at 10 to 13k.

See how the long runs go. You will find your endurance will suffer when you go beyond the 13k so it's hard to judge.

Just be careful not to wreck yourself between now and the race by running too many big long runs. Ideally you'd be doing a proper block of training.

Itziger

EDit wrote: »

Well I did the Gaelforce Howth summit yesterday, but that was a different kettle of fish and pace from that won’t help. Did a 13k run last week with an average pace of 5:45, but I was nursing a cold and my breathing was not the best (and I felt awful by the end of it). I guess I should plan to ramp up by a few Km per week between now and the HM (about 5 weeks away) so as Zebra3 said I can get a few longer runs in and see where that puts me in terms of pace. Was just interested to hear what sort of difference in pace to expect between a 5/10K and a HM

Whatever you do, DO NOT race the long runs. If you do, the Half Race will be the slowest of em all pace wise. In one or two of the long runs left, try an aggressive pace for a few kms in the second half of the run. Say you're doing 15 or 16kms. Take the first few easy, then increase the pace for a few and finally 'bring it home'.... But do that say 4 weeks out and 2 weeks out. Do the other long runs nice and easy.

Spirogyra

What do others think of doing 'even miles' throughout , 8'22 or 8'23 to break 3'40. Very hard to do the same time throughout though isn't it ?. Do others 'warm-up' ? would I need to warm up to run 8'22 in the first mile or 2 ? and would it be realistic to maintain that even in the last 6 ? I think 3'40 is a realistic target, but no guarantees.

TFBubendorfer

Spirogyra wrote: »

What do others think of doing 'even miles' throughout , 8'22 or 8'23 to break 3'40. Very hard to do the same time throughout though isn't it ?. Do others 'warm-up' ? would I need to warm up to run 8'22 in the first mile or 2 ? and would it be realistic to maintain that even in the last 6 ? I think 3'40 is a realistic target, but no guarantees.

In general you should always try and run at an even effort, which also means slight variations in pace for uphill and downhill miles.

You won't be able to run the first mile at 8:22 though, because the first mile is always congested. The worst thing you can do is to weave around like an idiot in a desperate attempt to stay on pace. Instead just accept that you'll lose 30 seconds and make them up gradually over the next 5-10 miles.

Spirogyra

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

In general you should always try and run at an even effort, which also means slight variations in pace for uphill and downhill miles.

You won't be able to run the first mile at 8:22 though, because the first mile is always congested. The worst thing you can do is to weave around like an idiot in a desperate attempt to stay on pace. Instead just accept that you'll lose 30 seconds and make them up gradually over the next 5-10 miles.

Does this apply to the Pacers also ? will they be 30 seconds slower in the first mile ? thanks

Murph_D

Spirogyra wrote: »

Does this apply to the Pacers also ? will they be 30 seconds slower in the first mile ? thanks

The first mile in Dublin generally isn't too bad in my experience. Pacers would get it close enough. When I paced in 2015 it was no trouble at the 4:30 end anyway. Once you get around the corner onto Leeson St it's not that hard to get up to speed. That's been my experience anyway, between 3:20 - 4:40 pace over past five DCMs.

TFBubendorfer

Spirogyra wrote: »

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

In general you should always try and run at an even effort, which also means slight variations in pace for uphill and downhill miles.

You won't be able to run the first mile at 8:22 though, because the first mile is always congested. The worst thing you can do is to weave around like an idiot in a desperate attempt to stay on pace. Instead just accept that you'll lose 30 seconds and make them up gradually over the next 5-10 miles.

Does this apply to the Pacers also ? will they be 30 seconds slower in the first mile ? thanks

Pacers get stuck in traffic just as much as any other runner. The only time I remember NOT being 30+ seconds behind after mile 1 was the year when our pace group happened to be at the start of wave 2