Heating System combination for new build

sligo1986

I am currently building a house and have roof on windows in and thinking of what heating system to go with. I am thinking Air/Water heat pump, Ventilation system in house and pv solar panel to help run the heat pump and ventilation system. I also have stove in the main kitchen dining area which I will probably use regularly enough and another one in sitting room which won’t be on much. I was also thinking underfloor heating down stairs and rads upstairs. I was also thinking of putting the Air/water system in the garage which is about 5-8meters from house so as to give me more space in the house. I am totally new to all this and am only learning so would love to hear peoples advice and opinions?

368100

sligo1986 wrote: »

I am currently building a house and have roof on windows in and thinking of what heating system to go with. I am thinking Air/Water heat pump, Ventilation system in house and pv solar panel to help run the heat pump and ventilation system. I also have stove in the main kitchen dining area which I will probably use regularly enough and another one in sitting room which won’t be on much. I was also thinking underfloor heating down stairs and rads upstairs. I was also thinking of putting the Air/water system in the garage which is about 5-8meters from house so as to give me more space in the house. I am totally new to all this and am only learning so would love to hear peoples advice and opinions?

I'd be interested in hearing about this too. The most recent info I can find is that air/water heat pumps aren't very efficient but that's from a few years ago. Have they improved much?

Op....as far as I can make out, underfloor is really the only way to go with air/water pumps due to the lower temperature they heat water to, I think rads need higher temp but I'm open to being corrected?

Water John

A2W unit will be outside.
You can use aluminium rads upstairs. They won't need a high temp.
Some use A2W to provide hot water also. This works at rising, that water to a higher 60C temp. Less efficient at that.
If you have the house to a high insulation and sealed spec, your annual heating cost will be low.
If you have a stove with MHRV, you'll need little on the UFH.
PV panels won't contribute much.

sydthebeat

sligo1986 wrote: »

I am currently building a house and have roof on windows in and thinking of what heating system to go with. I am thinking Air/Water heat pump, Ventilation system in house and pv solar panel to help run the heat pump and ventilation system. I also have stove in the main kitchen dining area which I will probably use regularly enough and another one in sitting room which won’t be on much. I was also thinking underfloor heating down stairs and rads upstairs. I was also thinking of putting the Air/water system in the garage which is about 5-8meters from house so as to give me more space in the house. I am totally new to all this and am only learning so would love to hear peoples advice and opinions?

these decisions should be made even before the foundations are poured.

what options did your preliminary DEAP report give you?

sligo1986

Water John, know the a2w unit will be outside but I ment the tank and pipe work in the shed as ive seen it can take up a lot of space in a house. MHRV?? So do you think I should go with thermodynamics solar panels so as to have hot water as well?

sydthebeat Originally when planning house I just going with solar panels and stove with back boiler with oil to back up.

Water John

Wouldn't waste money on solar panels.
Put the manifold under the kitchen presses or stairs.

sydthebeat

sligo1986 wrote: »

Water John, know the a2w unit will be outside but I ment the tank and pipe work in the shed as ive seen it can take up a lot of space in a house. MHRV?? So do you think I should go with thermodynamics solar panels so as to have hot water as well?

sydthebeat Originally when planning house I just going with solar panels and stove with back boiler with oil to back up.

My point about the preliminary DEAP report is that if you charge the specification at this stage, you must get the new specification assessed to see if it complies.
You can't just make these changes throughout the build and assume everything is building reg compliant.

cruiser202006

sligo1986 wrote: »

I am currently building a house and have roof on windows in and thinking of what heating system to go with. I am thinking Air/Water heat pump, Ventilation system in house and pv solar panel to help run the heat pump and ventilation system. I also have stove in the main kitchen dining area which I will probably use regularly enough and another one in sitting room which won’t be on much. I was also thinking underfloor heating down stairs and rads upstairs. I was also thinking of putting the Air/water system in the garage which is about 5-8meters from house so as to give me more space in the house. I am totally new to all this and am only learning so would love to hear peoples advice and opinions?

Could put the indoor unit in garage but you'll prob need a secondary return or you'll be waiting all day for hot water to come. Most indoor units are 600x600 so if uve space in utility it's best to put there and have yer manifold at back of presses. If your pressurising hot and cold water, it's a good idea to have an aqua box in garage so you have no noise from pump. As for rads upstairs steel rads work perfectly fine with air to water. They normally don't work out much bigger than Alu rads but if tight for space you can go with triple panel rads

sligo1986

Cruiser202006, sorry still learning about the plumbing side of things. Secondary return? What is that and how does it work?
Also what does an aqua box do?

cruiser202006

sligo1986 wrote: »

Cruiser202006, sorry still learning about the plumbing side of things. Secondary return? What is that and how does it work?
Also what does an aqua box do?

A secondary return circulates hot water for set times to house otherwise you'd be waiting ages for hot water to get to tap or shower. It would mean another pipe between house and garage and a small brass bodied pump with a timeclock
Aquabox would basically be your attic storage tank but floor standing in your garage with a submersible pump inside to pressurise your hot and cold water

sheff the ref

I am at the stage now on a slow moving project where I need to make up my mind and having worked previously in the area of Geothermal I am baffled. Obviously Green energy regulations have to be taken into account though my house was started pre February 2014.

I will have a heavily insulated house, 9 inch cavity pumped, plus hopefully triple glazed windows. A well insulated house requires less heat input, therefore I wish to avoid spending pounds to save pennies or burden myself with long term maintenance costs. The outlay is far less for an oil boiler and radiators than for an Air Source or Ground Source heatpump. Long term maintenance is still up in the air regarding geothermal. A car engine requires moving parts to be replaced over time, and heatpumps will be no different and we expect heatpumps to last far longer than the 10 years that cars are scrapped at.

In fact the payback in years for Geothermal would be far less in a well insulated house as you do not have the same requirement for heat. Geothermal holds a massive advantage over Oil etc. in places where there is a higher demand for heat such as in houses that were built with far less insulation 10-15 years ago.

One massive consideration relating to underfloor is the inability to regulate the house temperatures with underfloor heating in Autumn and Spring when we can go suddenly from cold temperatures for a period to warm temperatures for a period and back to to extremely cold temperatures. I am concerned about the time needed to reheat the house when the temperature has dropped, in short the need for a burst of heat on occasional evenings.

If I go oil and rads, then I have to compensate with solar or otherwise. Can anyone advise me.

Water John

A weather compensating stat on the UFH heat source should accomodate the weather vagaries.
I think with low overall heat requirement of a well insulated, sealed build, extra money for geo over A2W may not have an ROI.

Personally I would go with A2W along with a dry stove. and if its' sealed enough MHRV.

I really see solar as a waste. Very poor ROI.

KCross

@shef the ref , as @water John said, weather compensating controls deal with that.

Your house should be a constant temp all year round.

KCross

@shef the ref , as @water John said, weather compensating controls deal with that.

Your house should be a constant temp all year round.

gooner99

sheff the ref wrote: »

I am at the stage now on a slow moving project where I need to make up my mind and having worked previously in the area of Geothermal I am baffled. Obviously Green energy regulations have to be taken into account though my house was started pre February 2014.

I will have a heavily insulated house, 9 inch cavity pumped, plus hopefully triple glazed windows. A well insulated house requires less heat input, therefore I wish to avoid spending pounds to save pennies or burden myself with long term maintenance costs. The outlay is far less for an oil boiler and radiators than for an Air Source or Ground Source heatpump. Long term maintenance is still up in the air regarding geothermal. A car engine requires moving parts to be replaced over time, and heatpumps will be no different and we expect heatpumps to last far longer than the 10 years that cars are scrapped at.

In fact the payback in years for Geothermal would be far less in a well insulated house as you do not have the same requirement for heat. Geothermal holds a massive advantage over Oil etc. in places where there is a higher demand for heat such as in houses that were built with far less insulation 10-15 years ago.

One massive consideration relating to underfloor is the inability to regulate the house temperatures with underfloor heating in Autumn and Spring when we can go suddenly from cold temperatures for a period to warm temperatures for a period and back to to extremely cold temperatures. I am concerned about the time needed to reheat the house when the temperature has dropped, in short the need for a burst of heat on occasional evenings.

If I go oil and rads, then I have to compensate with solar or otherwise. Can anyone advise me.

Hi Shef. What is you own feeling having worked in the area of Geothermal. Is your experience swaying you away from heatpumps?

I get the feeling from your post that you would be happier to heat your house with oil and rads, but you don't like the idea of having to add solar as the part L provision, so Geo/A2W and underfloor are coming back into your thoughts.

I am no expert, but I think you are right that ROI is not fantastic on Geo/A2W in a well insulated and airtight house where the heat demand is very small, unless of course oil takes a big hike in price. And that's assuming you won't have any maintenance or replacement costs. But unfortunately the way the regs are, where they encourage you to reduce your energy demands down to a level where you could heat it with a little fossil fuel (or any other method), but they hit you with the renewable stick.

I don't see anything wrong with heating a low energy house with oil and rads (except its not the "eco" thing to do), but like you I don't see the ROI with solar panels. What about adding in PV panels. Not sure how much extra they would be, I'd imagine they cost less than solar panels at this stage.

Calahonda52

OP: 9" pumped cavity: is the wall designed for that vis a vis wall ties and roof forces?
Just asking.

sheff the ref

I worked in Geothermal way back in 2005. Insulation specs were well off what they are now, floor insulation, roof insulation, windows, doors, wall insulation. I don't think windows were even taped back then. Therefore the heat requirement was much higher back then and therefore the payback on Geothermal was shorter as you were likely to be spending far more on oil.

Nowadays specs are far higher, less heat requirement and less heat loss. The expression "A candle would heat a modern house" is a serious exaggeration, but the days are gone of everyone hugged around a fire as the heat wouldn't reach the furthest extents of the room. I don't see the return on a significant investment in what will be a well insulated house.

gooner99 wrote: »

Hi Shef. What is you own feeling having worked in the area of Geothermal. Is your experience swaying you away from heatpumps?

I get the feeling from your post that you would be happier to heat your house with oil and rads, but you don't like the idea of having to add solar as the part L provision, so Geo/A2W and underfloor are coming back into your thoughts.

I am no expert, but I think you are right that ROI is not fantastic on Geo/A2W in a well insulated and airtight house where the heat demand is very small, unless of course oil takes a big hike in price. And that's assuming you won't have any maintenance or replacement costs. But unfortunately the way the regs are, where they encourage you to reduce your energy demands down to a level where you could heat it with a little fossil fuel (or any other method), but they hit you with the renewable stick.

I don't see anything wrong with heating a low energy house with oil and rads (except its not the "eco" thing to do), but like you I don't see the ROI with solar panels. What about adding in PV panels. Not sure how much extra they would be, I'd imagine they cost less than solar panels at this stage.

gooner99

sheff the ref wrote: »

I worked in Geothermal way back in 2005. Insulation specs were well off what they are now, floor insulation, roof insulation, windows, doors, wall insulation. I don't think windows were even taped back then. Therefore the heat requirement was much higher back then and therefore the payback on Geothermal was shorter as you were likely to be spending far more on oil.

Nowadays specs are far higher, less heat requirement and less heat loss. The expression "A candle would heat a modern house" is a serious exaggeration, but the days are gone of everyone hugged around a fire as the heat wouldn't reach the furthest extents of the room. I don't see the return on a significant investment in what will be a well insulated house.

Yeah those are my thoughts too. Once the heat demand is down that low, the ROI on a heatpump is much longer. I guess the advantage is no oil to order and increase in oil prices to worry about. Also they cover part L.

In my case I am very weary of a a2w given that I'm only yards from the sea and I can see daily what salt air does.

mjp

Im in similar position to you gooner where im building beside the sea in west of ireland so am wary of the damage saltwater can do with rusting heatpumps.

Have heard that panasonic have a bygold coated heatpump which is suitable for such areas due to the coating protecting it from the elements. Dont know about going for panasonic as a brand as lot of providers were warning me away from the japaneese brands and best stick to one of european/scandanavian brands such as Energia,Nibe, Thermia or Daikin.

So many options and differences betweek different types of heatpumps that its all a minefield trying to make sense of it all

sheff the ref

It is a matter of sitting down and analysing prices, but my gut instinct is that you would buy a significant amount of oil at any price for the price difference. I am also a long way from any coastal area so therefore am not open to the same level of exposure to the elements

gooner99 wrote: »

Yeah those are my thoughts too. Once the heat demand is down that low, the ROI on a heatpump is much longer. I guess the advantage is no oil to order and increase in oil prices to worry about. Also they cover part L.

In my case I am very weary of a a2w given that I'm only yards from the sea and I can see daily what salt air does.

368100

Got a price for an A2W heat pump, danfoss with largest size cylinder and full underfloor heating system for a 2150sq ft bungalow. €12k Inc vat fully fitted ....any thoughts on whether it's a good price or not?

Jofspring

368100 wrote: »

Got a price for an A2W heat pump, danfoss with largest size cylinder and full underfloor heating system for a 2150sq ft bungalow. €12k Inc vat fully fitted ....any thoughts on whether it's a good price or not?

Sounds pretty good to me.

Two prices I got were 15k and 16k for 2,444sqft.

Water John

Are those twin units, that heat the hot water, as well?

Jofspring

Water John wrote: »

Are those twin units, that heat the hot water, as well?

The quotes I got heated the water also.

Just for anyone interested. A2W, UFH and MHRV for house 2,444sqft. Quoted price 22k including Vat for the whole system to be installed and set up. Price may vary for other people depending on demand in specific house but gives a rough idea anyway.

Water John

All in one contract, is a good idea.

368100

Water John wrote: »

Are those twin units, that heat the hot water, as well?

Yeah my quote was for that too.....with the biggest size hot water tank available out of 3 sizes

Ray Donovan

Jofspring wrote: »

The quotes I got heated the water also.

Just for anyone interested. A2W, UFH and MHRV for house 2,444sqft. Quoted price 22k including Vat for the whole system to be installed and set up. Price may vary for other people depending on demand in specific house but gives a rough idea anyway.

I'd shop around if I was you.

Got the same as yourself for €18,500. 2650 sq ft. IVT heat pump.

mjp

Is there much of a difference between pumps from different companies. I'm getting spec'd anywhere between 9 and 15kw pumps from different suppliers. Each them contradicting each other and saying theirs is most efficient. Struggling to pick out the spoofers from the most genuine as want to look past price alone when choosing.

Jofspring

Ray Donovan wrote: »

Jofspring wrote: »

The quotes I got heated the water also.

Just for anyone interested. A2W, UFH and MHRV for house 2,444sqft. Quoted price 22k including Vat for the whole system to be installed and set up. Price may vary for other people depending on demand in specific house but gives a rough idea anyway.

I'd shop around if I was you.

Got the same as yourself for €18,500. 2650 sq ft. IVT heat pump.

Got a few quotes. One wanted 16k ex vat just for UFH and A2W. A smaller water cylinder and a lower Kw heat pump. They also wouldn't install themselves (although it was included in cost), and said they would give me a local installer to do it. They also couldn't do the MHRV so I would have had to find someone separate for that. Felt it was making the job messy and was going to be more expensive anyway.

A few other places I tried to get quotes from took ages to get back to me or could only do certain parts of the job like explained above. Happy enough to go with who I am after hearing some very positive things about them from a few different sources. Although €18,500 for A2W, UFH and MHRV does sound excellent.

Have you had it installed yet Ray?

Jofspring

Ray Donovan wrote: »

Jofspring wrote: »

The quotes I got heated the water also.

Just for anyone interested. A2W, UFH and MHRV for house 2,444sqft. Quoted price 22k including Vat for the whole system to be installed and set up. Price may vary for other people depending on demand in specific house but gives a rough idea anyway.

I'd shop around if I was you.

Got the same as yourself for €18,500. 2650 sq ft. IVT heat pump.

Got a few quotes. One wanted 16k ex vat just for UFH and A2W. A smaller water cylinder and a lower Kw heat pump. They also wouldn't install themselves (although it was included in cost), and said they would give me a local installer to do it. They also couldn't do the MHRV so I would have had to find someone separate for that. Felt it was making the job messy and was going to be more expensive anyway.

A few other places I tried to get quotes from took ages to get back to me or could only do certain parts of the job like explained above. Happy enough to go with who I am after hearing some very positive things about them from a few different sources. Although €18,500 for A2W, UFH and MHRV does sound excellent.

Have you had it installed yet Ray?

Ray Donovan

I have it installed since February and moved into the house in April.

Happy with the system at the moment but the real test will be November, December and January. I'll probably have to really explore the workings of it then as the weather was very mild when we moved in.

2 esb bills so far. The first for €200 and the second for €160.

Ray Donovan

mjp wrote: »

Is there much of a difference between pumps from different companies. I'm getting spec'd anywhere between 9 and 15kw pumps from different suppliers. Each them contradicting each other and saying theirs is most efficient. Struggling to pick out the spoofers from the most genuine as want to look past price alone when choosing.

Did you not get a DEAP assessment done by your engineer pre-build? He should have outlined on that the correct size pump. I've read that a pump too big can lead to a lot of difficulties as it continually kicking on and off can harm it and actually lead to bigger energy bills. I'm definitely no expert however.

Water John

Ray, good figures. the best use of the system is on the shoulders of the year, in terms of saving. But your winter bills should be low too. Keep in touch on that please.

Yeah, too big a compressor is not a good idea. Another thing is, if you have a situation where any of the thermostats, esp if there in every room, can call for heating.

Ray Donovan

Water John wrote: »

Ray, good figures. the best use of the system is on the shoulders of the year, in terms of saving. But your winter bills should be low too. Keep in touch on that please.

Yeah, too big a compressor is not a good idea. Another thing is, if you have a situation where any of the thermostats, esp if there in every room, can call for heating.

I only have 6 stats. One in the sunroom, the sitting room and one in each bedroom. I like to keep things simple(ish)!!!

covey09

368100 wrote: »

Got a price for an A2W heat pump, danfoss with largest size cylinder and full underfloor heating system for a 2150sq ft bungalow. €12k Inc vat fully fitted ....any thoughts on whether it's a good price or not?

Could you PM the Company that quoted you 12K?

covey09

Ray Donovan wrote: »

I'd shop around if I was you.

Got the same as yourself for €18,500. 2650 sq ft. IVT heat pump.

Ray, could you Pm the details of the company, i like the IVT setup.

Mac0783

I'm currently pricing for a heating system in a 290sqm house, the best price i've got is for a 13kw a2w system, has anyone this installed and what are your thoughts?

Take2Sean

Hey guys could you PM me who you went with currently speccing a house for similar. Would like to go with one co. for everything.

prince20

Ray Donovan wrote: »

I have it installed since February and moved into the house in April.

Happy with the system at the moment but the real test will be November, December and January. I'll probably have to really explore the workings of it then as the weather was very mild when we moved in.

2 esb bills so far. The first for €200 and the second for €160.

Hi, how's the bills been?

Ray Donovan

prince20 wrote: »

Hi, how's the bills been?

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2055433218/83

Posted last night about this coincidentally enough.

samdeluxjones

I have Nibe F2040 + VVM 320 16kW and the cold snap of Dec-Jan me bimonthly ESB bill was €416 which was a bit steep I thought for a passive house 300m2 UFH.

I also read the units and average daily units for this period was 33 units/day.
In summertime it's 16 units/day

so 33-16=17X.17(unit price)=2.89x7(week)= €20.23c a week to heat the house in the cold snap of Dec-Jan

Is this good/bad or normal?

House is a lovely even 22 degrees all the time.

Water John

Well in my bog standard house, my oil bill is triple that. So, insulation and sealing have a yield.

samdeluxjones

Fact Truth.

I don't miss all those old bog standard those houses i used to live in Water John.

Water John

What would the cost be of upgrading mine. Draught sealing, the biggest issue. If a A2W Hp would manage it, I would jump.

KCross

samdeluxjones wrote: »

I have Nibe F2040 + VVM 320 16kW and the cold snap of Dec-Jan me bimonthly ESB bill was €416 which was a bit steep I thought for a passive house 300m2 UFH.

I also read the units and average daily units for this period was 33 units/day.
In summertime it's 16 units/day

so 33-16=17X.17(unit price)=2.89x7(week)= €20.23c a week to heat the house in the cold snap of Dec-Jan

Is this good/bad or normal?

House is a lovely even 22 degrees all the time.

For a passive house that seems high to me.

You should put a kWh meter on your heat pump and monitor it or is that where you got you unit figures from?

Also, your calculation above you use 17c/kWh, do you have a night rate meter at all? You should have, if you have a HP.

samdeluxjones

That't what i was thinking too.

When you break it down to €20-€26 a week it doesn't sound too bad.

Figures are from meter readings at random times and subtracted from summertime readings when the heating is completely off. Hot water is the same all year and basic electricity usage is roughly the same.

I don't have night rate but am now seriously thinking of getting it and limiting HP usage during the day and letting it rip at night..

water john, send plans of your house to kore insulation and they will tell you cost of external wrap. Wrap installation and colour render can cost a bit but you will have the look of a brand new warm house.

Water John

I think it's more a case of sealing, than insulation. All slabbed on the inside with 38mm insulated board. Cavity also partially insulated.
It's the gap between the top of the wall and the roof is the main problem.

Lowering your figure more by using night rate, makes me feel worse, Ha.

samdeluxjones

Gap between top of wall and roof I stuffed with rockwool.

Had a lad do the spray insulation on top of that and in all hard to reach places and stuck me head in there every windy day until i was sure it was sealed.

I used over 60 tubes of good polyurethane and 30 odd of cheaper stuff to seal around every opening. Took over 3 weeks but was worth it.

If you seal too good you will need mechanical ventilation..

KCross

samdeluxjones wrote: »

Figures are from meter readings at random times and subtracted from summertime readings when the heating is completely off. Hot water is the same all year and basic electricity usage is roughly the same.

You should get one of those clamp meters and attach it to the HP. They're not 100% accurate but accurate enough to monitor it.

samdeluxjones wrote: »

I don't have night rate but am now seriously thinking of getting it and limiting HP usage during the day and letting it rip at night..

You will save money by putting in the night rate meter. You won't just turn it off by day and let it rip at night. Thats not how they work.

You will be able to transfer some of the day use to night but not all.

Definitely get the night rate meter though, you will save regardless.

gooner99

Water John wrote: »

What would the cost be of upgrading mine. Draught sealing, the biggest issue. If a A2W Hp would manage it, I would jump.

This thread may be of interest to you....

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057784399

Water John

Thanks for that. Familiar with TEA, in the past. Did both RE Cert and BER Course with them. They actually wrote the teaching module of the BER.