Why are we hating all the men?

silverharp

Masterofballs wrote: »

I don't mean anything to be honest. I talk about the true spirit of feminism. That is all. The good that it has done for the world and is still doing.

can only judge it by what I see and it seems to be more a home for angry men hating misfits

Masterofballs

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

Bit of a No True Scotsman situation there though.

How? I am not being argumentative. I am looking at it from a pure form. Just because someone uses feminism for their own agenda does not or should not diminish its inherent will to do good in the world.

Masterofballs

NinjaKirby wrote: »

First of all, your definition of Feminism sounds suspiciously like the definition of Egalitarianism. Just saying.

Surely you would at least accept that concepts such as Rape Culture and the Gender Pay Gap are promoted in the name of Feminism?

If Feminism is as you say "equality and justice for all" then there are Feminists who actually participate in behavior that runs contrary to those goals. They engage in this behavior believing it to be Feminism, right?

At best you would leave me saying that I don't have a problem with Feminism but I do have a problem with Feminists.

Well they would not be feminists, i fail to see your point? Just because you say your something does not mean you are something.

Masterofballs

silverharp wrote: »

can only judge it by what I see and it seems to be more a home for angry men hating misfits

If they hate men, they are not feminists and vice versa.

Dave_The_Sheep

Masterofballs wrote: »

How? I am not being argumentative. I am looking at it from a pure form. Just because someone uses feminism for their own agenda does not or should not diminish its inherent will to do good in the world.

Nothing to do with you being argumentative.

Just because they're not what you see feminism as doesn't mean they're not feminists. Movements and definitions change, unfortunately.

For what it's worth, I agree that the genuine equality based feminism is a good thing, but modern feminism doesn't appear (at least online and social media wise - and I'm open to correction here) to be about this.

Anyways, I'm not wading into this debate, just wanted to make that point before leaving again.

silverharp

Masterofballs wrote: »

If they hate men, they are not feminists and vice versa.

lol

Masterofballs

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

Nothing to do with you being argumentative.

Just because they're not what you see feminism as doesn't mean they're not feminists. Movements and definitions change, unfortunately.

For what it's worth, I agree that the genuine equality based feminism is a good thing, but modern feminism doesn't appear (at least online and social media wise - and I'm open to correction here) to be about this.

Anyways, I'm not wading into this debate, just wanted to make that point before leaving again.

Fair enough. But just one point before you go. It is not how i see feminism that matters but what it is. It has its core principles, narrative and objectives.

NinjaKirby

Masterofballs wrote: »

Well they would not be feminists, i fail to see your point? Just because you say your something does not mean you are something.

I'll give you this. That's a pretty good tactic.

So actually all along the people who said they were Feminists weren't actually Feminists? They just identified as Feminists?

I think you are saying that there are no Feminists only Egalitarians and people who think they are Feminists but really aren't?

You might have to explain that one to me.

NinjaKirby

Masterofballs wrote: »

Fair enough. But just one point before you go. It is not how i see feminism that matters but what it is. It has its core principles, narrative and objectives.

What are these core principles, narrative and objectives?

Let me remind you before you even begin...

Egalitarianism - the doctrine that all people are equal and deserve equal rights and opportunities.

razorblunt

Murrisk wrote: »

This isn't a gender thing. Happens all the time to both men and women, being defined by their better known half.

Oh I know, it's just idiotic whenever it happens.
I almost wouldn't put it past the Examiner to do this on purpose, but when you read the articles they have, they're generally of very low standard anyway so they probably saw nothing wrong with this.

AudreyHepburn

Masterofballs wrote: »

What you talk about is not feminism, what you talk about is something else.

Exactly my point - what you are so determined to call Feminism could not be further from that.

retro:electro

Masterofballs wrote: »

Fair enough. But just one point before you go. It is not how i see feminism that matters but what it is. It has its core principles, narrative and objectives.

Can you make an actual point that's not just one or two lines? Your posts are like farts in the wind briefly stinking up the place.
Are you a feminist? What are your core principles and objectives?

Glenster

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

Nothing to do with you being argumentative.

Just because they're not what you see feminism as doesn't mean they're not feminists. Movements and definitions change, unfortunately.

For what it's worth, I agree that the genuine equality based feminism is a good thing, but modern feminism doesn't appear (at least online and social media wise - and I'm open to correction here) to be about this.

Anyways, I'm not wading into this debate, just wanted to make that point before leaving again.

Everything is extreme online.

People seem to be reading facebook posts by morons who say "f*ck men, feminism yayyyyy"

and then make the link that feminism is that. I'd advise everyone who believes that feminism is anything other than a female led campaign for equality to educate themselves.

Zulu

anna080 wrote: »

Can you make an actual point that's not just one or two lines? Your posts are like farts in the wind briefly stinking up the place.
Are you a feminist? What are your core principles and objectives?

Dont address them so - rather than compound the issue. :rolleyes:

B0jangles

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I think in a lot of cases it's just easier for women to hate on men than take responsibility for their own mistakes ie crying rape after a one night stand you regret.

In other cases it's about allowing one bad experience with a man cloud your view of them as a whole i.e if you experience abuse at a partner's hands it might make you feel better and safer to assume all men are cruel and stay away from them instead of being brave and taking a chance on the genuine guy showing you interest.

Men are not the epitome of all evil any more than women are all goodness and light and to deny that is at best ignorance and naivety.

Thats a really weird position to take on this; I think most people when they come out of a bad relationship feel like they need to take some time to recover rather than jump straight back in, and they certainly don't need to be 'brave' by putting their own feelings aside to gratify someone else's.

Also the whole notion that 'crying rape after a one night stand you regret.' is a real thing that happens regularly is basically b*llocks.

NinjaKirby

Glenster wrote: »

I'd advise everyone who believes that feminism is anything other than a female led campaign for equality to educate themselves.

I would like to present to you articles from a website called Everyday Feminism which describes itself as an "educational platform".

http://everydayfeminism.com/2016/10/yes-actually-it-is-all-men/ - Think It’s #NotAllMen? These 4 Facts Prove You’re Just Plain Wrong

http://everydayfeminism.com/2017/01/not-all-men-just-enough-of-them/ - Why Your ‘Not All Men’ Argument Is Just Sexist Hypocrisy

http://everydayfeminism.com/2017/05/ableist-slur/ - Yes, ‘Stupid’ Is an Ableist Slur – Let’s Unpack Your Defensiveness About That

http://everydayfeminism.com/2017/05/mexican-queerness-radical-act/ - 5 Ways Mexican Queerness Is a Radical Act Against Colonialism and Machismo

http://everydayfeminism.com/2017/05/about-white-privilege-best-of-ef/ - Explaining White Privilege

http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/11/foodie-without-appropriation/ -The Feminist Guide to Being a Foodie Without Being Culturally Appropriative

B0jangles

NinjaKirby wrote: »

I would like to present to you articles from a website called Everyday Feminism which describes itself as an "educational platform".

http://everydayfeminism.com/2016/10/yes-actually-it-is-all-men/ - Think It’s #NotAllMen? These 4 Facts Prove You’re Just Plain Wrong

http://everydayfeminism.com/2017/01/not-all-men-just-enough-of-them/ - Why Your ‘Not All Men’ Argument Is Just Sexist Hypocrisy

http://everydayfeminism.com/2017/05/ableist-slur/ - Yes, ‘Stupid’ Is an Ableist Slur – Let’s Unpack Your Defensiveness About That

http://everydayfeminism.com/2017/05/mexican-queerness-radical-act/ - 5 Ways Mexican Queerness Is a Radical Act Against Colonialism and Machismo

http://everydayfeminism.com/2017/05/about-white-privilege-best-of-ef/ - Explaining White Privilege

http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/11/foodie-without-appropriation/ -The Feminist Guide to Being a Foodie Without Being Culturally Appropriative

So a selection of opinion pieces, which, at their worst, ask people to consider things from a perspective not their own - hardly a crime unless you are terminally oversensitive?

I mean, if I read a piece written by a person who is from an ethnic minority in this country which says that people like me cannot really understand what it's like to experience racism firsthand and that I benefit from privileges that I don't even notice, I accept that they know more about their experiences than I do, try to learn something from what they said and Move On, not scream that they are trying to destroy me and everyone like me and are also blaming me personally for the existance of racism (which totally doesnt exist btw).

Will I Am Not

B0jangles wrote: »

So a selection of opinion pieces, which, at their worst, ask people to consider things from a perspective not their own - hardly a crime unless you are terminally oversensitive?

I mean, if I read a piece written by a person who is from an ethnic minority in this country which says that people like me cannot really understand what it's like to experience racism firsthand and that I benefit from privileges that I don't even notice, I accept that they know more about their experiences than I do, try to learn something from what they said and Move On, not scream that they are trying to destroy me and everyone like me and are also blaming me personally for the existance of racism (which totally doesnt exist btw).

The fact that you think that's the worst that comes out of those links says enough. Have you even skimmed the first one?

B0jangles

The Fake Sheikh wrote: »

The fact that you think that's the worst that comes out of those links says enough. Have you even skimmed the first one?

Yes, I read it and I still don't see why its so terrible; it might be uncomfortable to read and I can see why people might disagree with parts of it, but perceiving it as a symptom of a widespread hatred of men is society is a bit nuts.

NinjaKirby

B0jangles wrote: »

Also the whole notion that 'crying rape after a one night stand you regret.' is a real thing that happens regularly is basically b*llocks.

I agree with this but I also feel like we are approaching a point where a lot of young men are genuinely afraid that this will happen to them.

A young lad gets to college and it's all consent classes and posters declaring that drunk sex is rape. Mainstream media runs articles stating that Women cannot be sexist towards men. He is cautioned that mansplaining and manspreading and microagressions can be sexist acts. He's not quite sure if all Sexism is classed as Hate Crime but he'd better be damn sure he doesn't say the wrong thing or his future is done.

I'm exaggerating a little but I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that there is a growing feeling of distrust and suspicion.

You meet a girl on a night out and you have a good consensual time together and the next day you ask "did you have a good time last night" and she says "actually, I don't remember everything..."

Maybe this fear has always existed though? I can't say I've felt that fear myself but a lot of men seem genuinely afraid that a totally consensual and pleasant experience can turn into a rape accusation.

Will I Am Not

B0jangles wrote: »

Yes, I read it and I still don't see why its so terrible; it might be uncomfortable to read and I can see why people might disagree with parts of it, but perceiving it as a symptom of a widespread hatred of men is society is a bit nuts.

You said that the articles at their worst ask people to consider things from another perspective. I never said anything about how widespread those opinions are.

You are giving the impression that you agree with most of it.

NinjaKirby

B0jangles wrote: »

So a selection of opinion pieces, which, at their worst, ask people to consider things from a perspective not their own - hardly a crime unless you are terminally oversensitive?

I must have forgotten when I said it was a crime or that I even found it offensive or that I was even sensitive to it. Perhaps you can quote me on that?

The post I was responding to said "i'd advise everyone who believes that feminism is anything other than a female led campaign for equality to educate themselves".

In response to that point, and ONLY that point, I have shown some articles from a mainstream Feminist resource that claims to be an educational platform.

In my opinion these articles demonstrate that mainstream Feminism today is more than simply "a female led campaign for equality".

That was my only point.

So why are you trying to twist that into this idea that I am screaming that "they are trying to destroy me and everyone like me and are also blaming me personally for the existence of racism"?

What's the point of that? I am trying to have a reasonable conversation, I think, and you are trying to recontextualize the points I am making to make it seem like I am "screaming" about Feminism.

It's a good tactic but let's be honest here. You know yourself that the only way you can make your point is by twisting things and being dishonest.

It's so underhanded but that's the kind of person you are, I guess.

B0jangles

NinjaKirby wrote: »

I agree with this but I also feel like we are approaching a point where a lot of young men are genuinely afraid that this will happen to them.

A young lad gets to college and it's all consent classes and posters declaring that drunk sex is rape. Mainstream media runs articles stating that Women cannot be sexist towards men. He is cautioned that mansplaining and manspreading and microagressions can be sexist acts. He's not quite sure if all Sexism is classed as Hate Crime but he'd better be damn sure he doesn't say the wrong thing or his future is done.

I'm exaggerating a little but I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that there is a growing feeling of distrust and suspicion.

You meet a girl on a night out and you have a good consensual time together and the next day you ask "did you have a good time last night" and she says "actually, I don't remember everything..."

Maybe this fear has always existed though? I can't say I've felt that fear myself but a lot of men seem genuinely afraid that a totally consensual and pleasant experience can turn into a rape accusation.

I have to say I do not envy young people of either sex growing up at the moment; it seems like things have gotten more confusing than they ever were before and the ever-present smartphone means that the embarrassing stuff most of us did which in the past would have been quickly forgotten is now saved, shared and spread around the internet where it will never really disappear.

I think it is natural for people to think mostly about people like themselves too - guys are naturally concerned with the experience of young men growing up in a confusing and often contradictory society, but it really is just as confusing for young women - they are under just as much of a barrage of conflicting messages about how they should behave, they just get different ones.

The chances of a man being charged, never mind convicted after having apparently consensual sex with someone who later says they were too drunk to know what happened are vanishingly small, and the simplest way to avoid even that possibility is to not have sex with very drunk people. No, I'm not saying 'any drink = drunk' as someone is bound to pop up and say; I'm taking about stumbling, slurring, drunk people.

NinjaKirby

B0jangles wrote: »

Yes, I read it and I still don't see why its so terrible; it might be uncomfortable to read and I can see why people might disagree with parts of it, but perceiving it as a symptom of a widespread hatred of men is society is a bit nuts.

Well, fortunately for me, I was not using it as an example of a widespread hatred of men in society.

I was using it to demonstrate that Feminism isn't just a simple female led campaign for equality.

You either knew that and went ahead with your point anyway or you didn't know because you aren't actually interested in trying to understand. I don't know which is worse tbh.

B0jangles

NinjaKirby wrote: »

I must have forgotten when I said it was a crime or that I even found it offensive or that I was even sensitive to it. Perhaps you can quote me on that?

The post I was responding to said "i'd advise everyone who believes that feminism is anything other than a female led campaign for equality to educate themselves".

In response to that point, and ONLY that point, I have shown some articles from a mainstream Feminist resource that claims to be an educational platform.

In my opinion these articles demonstrate that mainstream Feminism today is more than simply "a female led campaign for equality".

That was my only point.

So why are you trying to twist that into this idea that I am screaming that "they are trying to destroy me and everyone like me and are also blaming me personally for the existence of racism"?

What's the point of that? I am trying to have a reasonable conversation, I think, and you are trying to recontextualize the points I am making to make it seem like I am "screaming" about Feminism.

It's a good tactic but let's be honest here. You know yourself that the only way you can make your point is by twisting things and being dishonest.

It's so underhanded but that's the kind of person you are, I guess.

What?

You posted those links, presumably with the intention of countering the following statement "i'd advise everyone who believes that feminism is anything other than a female led campaign for equality to educate themselves". I was pointing out that the links were to a variety of opinion pieces giving various perspectives on modern society from a feminist perpective. This is fully in keeping with the original statement - inclusivity is important, feminism is failing its purpose if it only represents the interests of a specific subset of women.

Given the general consensus of this thread that modern feminism is a toxic female supremacy movement, I was perhaps hasty in assuming you were part of that consensus, and for that I apologise. If you read back over the thread, there is most definitely no shortage of posters who do find these kind of opinion pieces extremely offensive and who do feel personally attacked by the opinions expressed therein.

B0jangles

NinjaKirby wrote: »

Well, fortunately for me, I was not using it as an example of a widespread hatred of men in society.

I was using it to demonstrate that Feminism isn't just a simple female led campaign for equality.

You either knew that and went ahead with your point anyway or you didn't know because you aren't actually interested in trying to understand. I don't know which is worse tbh.

That response wasn't directed at you.

NinjaKirby

B0jangles wrote: »

Given the general consensus of this thread that modern feminism is a toxic female supremacy movement, I was perhaps hasty in assuming you were part of that consensus, and for that I apologise. If you read back over the thread, there is most definitely no shortage of posters who do find these kind of opinion pieces extremely offensive and who do feel personally attacked by the opinions expressed therein.

Look, I feel like there are aspects of Feminism that encourage dishonest and sly debating and discussion tactics (a la Creationism) and also that promote a from of bullying (a la actual bullies).

When you're at the point where my objection to the idea that it's just a plain old "female led campaign for equality" results in you characterizing me as being terminally offended or hat I am spreading the idea that society hates men then I am sorry but you are in danger of losing the run of yourself.

Sorry for getting mad there. I do not think you are an underhanded person. I'm sorry.

Does it not seem to you that if someone in mainstream media criticizes Feminism or Feminists, or even makes a joke about them then the pitchforks are out?

Does it not seem that, at the same time, mainstream media is gradually introducing the more questionable aspects of Feminist Theory or Ideology or whatever you want to call it?

Does it not seem to you that the "MRA" is becoming more and more of a boogeyman that people can name drop when certain groups are not getting their own way?

I don't agree that society hates men. I do however think that threads like this exist because, little by little, we are being asked to accept Feminist rhetoric and even the slightest push back is met with escalating aggression.

I'm not offended by Everyday Feminism .com I don't think they are doing anything criminal. I just think they are pretty stupid and that they are proof that the idea of Feminism as "just about equality" is dishonest, or at least misguided.

Today an anonymous poster on the internet twists my views and misrepresents them all because I said "maybe Feminism is not all it seems to be". Tomorrow?

We should, I think, be cautions of this.

NinjaKirby

..................................................

B0jangles

NinjaKirby wrote: »

Look, I feel like there are aspects of Feminism that encourage dishonest and sly debating and discussion tactics (a la Creationism) and also that promote a from of bullying (a la actual bullies).

When you're at the point where my objection to the idea that it's just a plain old "female led campaign for equality" results in you characterizing me as being terminally offended or hat I am spreading the idea that society hates men then I am sorry but you are in danger of losing the run of yourself.

Sorry for getting mad there. I do not think you are an underhanded person. I'm sorry.

Does it not seem to you that if someone in mainstream media criticizes Feminism or Feminists, or even makes a joke about them then the pitchforks are out?

Does it not seem that, at the same time, mainstream media is gradually introducing the more questionable aspects of Feminist Theory or Ideology or whatever you want to call it?

Does it not seem to you that the "MRA" is becoming more and more of a boogeyman that people can name drop when certain groups are not getting their own way?

I don't agree that society hates men. I do however think that threads like this exist because, little by little, we are being asked to accept Feminist rhetoric and even the slightest push back is met with escalating aggression.

I'm not offended by Everyday Feminism .com I don't think they are doing anything criminal. I just think they are pretty stupid and that they are proof that the idea of Feminism as "just about equality" is dishonest, or at least misguided.

Today an anonymous poster on the internet twists my views and misrepresents them all because I said "maybe Feminism is not all it seems to be". Tomorrow?

We should, I think, be cautions of this.

I do not agree with this, no. If you* read mainstream media, you are exposed to a wide range of viewpoints, some of which you are bound to disagree with. Some of those viewpoints are from people like Una Mullally and Louise O'Neill, others are from people like George Hook, who, while does not focus on social issues, is most definitely not one to hide how he feels about feminists if the topic comes up. If you include internet discussion as another medium, then it is one which is largely extremely hostile to almost every aspect of modern feminism
Everyone sees the world through their own filter. If you think everyone is out to get men, you'll see anti-male bias everywhere, if you think the same about women, you'll see the opposite.

(*by 'you' I mean a generalized 'you', not you specifically)

silverharp

B0jangles wrote: »

I do not agree with this, no. If you* read mainstream media, you are exposed to a wide range of viewpoints, some of which you are bound to disagree with. Some of those viewpoints are from people like Una Mullally and Louise O'Neill, others are from people like George Hook, who, while does not focus on social issues, is most definitely not one to hide how he feels about feminists if the topic comes up. If you include internet discussion as another medium, then it is one which is largely extremely hostile to almost every aspect of modern feminism
Everyone sees the world through their own filter. If you think everyone is out to get men, you'll see anti-male bias everywhere, if you think the same about women, you'll see the opposite.

(*by 'you' I mean a generalized 'you', not you specifically)

here is the thing though, you don't hear feminists call out other feminists which clearly they ought to be doing, if not take it as read that they broadly agree with anything any other feminist says or they might go to some excuse like they are only joking.
The only Feminist I can think of that is interesting to listen to is camille paglia who actually does criticise other feminists.