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Body of Alan Hawe to be exhumed
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How would such awareness help? The vast majority of narcissistic individuals do not wipe out their families.
Hi Jackboy. The style of your question makes me think you likely understand personality disorders, and have an open mind about their apparent role in occurrences like Alan Haw's.
My overall idea here is that Family Annihilation is an expression of a clinical narcissism sub-type (known or unknown) in relation to a specific sea-change in social conditions (first significant boom to bust in a given era). My general understanding of how this happens is:
Narcissist sub-type X lives in static-but-spiritually-harmonious financially depressed culture. To survive egotistically in this milieu, Na X suppresses natural expression of his disorder. Cultural directives are directly opposed to his desires. I believe this renders the Na X a tranquilized operator, which is one way to account for the lack of FA occurrences in static financially depressed times.
Boom time hits, and the world is now a much more hospitable place for NA X. Money and material goods are accepted as being arch-valuable and covet-table. NA X is finally at home, and able to express his bankrupt value system without any opposition. Instead, he is admired and respected for material wealth.
Closely following the rise of material is the fall of integrity. As money becomes arch-valuable, people chase it but feel unfairly defined by it. Envy and jealousy become tangible, which damages compassion across the culture. In these conditions, the sour resentful attitude that might occasionally seep out of NA X (who suffers with terminal jealousy and resentment despite any form of success) is unnoticeable. He appears to be accepted and right at home in this neo-liberal commerce zone, let's just say
Crash time hits, and psycho-normal people are outraged, worried, and looking for a way to reconcile reality with their expectations and self-concept. Anger is manifested against actual and apparent causative agents, but tends to beget what is ultimately a limited-intensity agitation in the culture.
Meanwhile, NA X is suffering in a similar way, but on a scale that no one normal could imagine. The crash has robbed him of the huge narcissistic supply of admiration for 'winning' (instant opprobrium to look loaded in a crash even if you are: wealth must be hidden) in the culture. He detects his family's disappointment and takes it personally (center of the universe problem). There's a significant risk that his wealth will take a tumble. Overall and as a result, the most predictable response of NA X over time is depression.
Clinical narcissist sub-type X depression is, by apparent definition, a sign of his inwardly turned narcissistic rage.
When this situation occurs, it's a danger zone for FA to occur, I think. All it takes is a tiny spark in this noxious psychological mine, any remotely significant kick to the reputation-derived ego. The other part of the requirement is that NA X is aware of a case of Family Annihilation, and recognizes its ability as a political move to hide your disordered tracks while playing victim to the public and leaving the impression of a poor man who just lost it (not responsible or deserving of blame).
For your question, I think that the narcissism term is used generally and casually today, and of course narcissism itself exists on a sliding scale from 'more narcissistic traits than normal' to a clinical definition. For an occurrence this unusual, I'd guess that the sub-type of clinical narcissism most likely to end up making the AF grade is the somatic sub-type.
From Sam Vaknin, a diagnosed cerebral narcissist intent on defining himself as a world authority on narcissism (and pretty much managing it, aggravatingly enough):
The somatic narcissist flaunts his sexual conquests, parades his possessions, exhibits his muscles, brags about his physical aesthetics, youthfulness, sexual prowess or exploits, and is often a health freak and a hypochondriac.
The intensely physical representation of Alan Haw's narcissistic rage in the murders suggests somatic to me. Also suggesting that the killings were releasing such and gave him peace were the 3-page letter and thoughtful note he penned before killing himself. How could anyone normal or mentally ill accomplish this?
And lastly, I've recently come to understand that feminism constructs narcissism as being more prevalent in men because our patriarchal narrative allows for it. Feminist analysis of FA is that it's a problem with our patriarchal narrative...
I wonder if there would be satisfaction if women committed FA at the same rate as men? That's equality Sorry, couldn't resist.
ETA, I will return at some point to actually answer your query. I'll try to keep it concise 0 -
Intothesea wrote: »ETA, I will return at some point to actually answer your query. I'll try to keep it concise
Looking forward to hearing it.
The whole thing reminds me of a local family, long abused by the father (everyone knew about it but nothing could be done as the battered wife denied everything). Eventually the 17 year old son beat the crap out of the father and kicked him out of the house.
In the Hawe case, the oldest son was getting big and strong. Did Hawe see this and realize that his days as the big dog were numbered.0 -
Intothesea wrote: »ETA, I will return at some point to actually answer your query. I'll try to keep it concise
Looking forward to hearing it.
The whole thing reminds me of a local family, long abused by the father (everyone knew about it but nothing could be done as the battered wife denied everything). Eventually the 17 year old son beat the crap out of the father and kicked him out of the house.
In the Hawe case, the oldest son was getting big and strong. Did Hawe see this and realize that his days as the big dog were numbered.
It would be interesting if there were stats available on these kinds of crimes showing the ages of the kids at the time. Might be something in that last paragraph.0 -
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Some interesting points there, but a huge amount of speculation and not a single source, especially for the more "way-out" claims such as the alleged creation of the mentality of family annihilation by the economic boom.
Where is the evidence that family annihilation actually did not exist in the past, as opposed to being downplayed or narrated differently (tragic deaths, a terrible mystery, you know the sort of lies Ireland has always been good at telling itself)?
Hi Volchitsa,
For the area I'm talking about, educated speculation is about as far as anyone can go. My main thrust here isn't to prove anything definitively, but maybe present some ways to think about these issues, or give a coherent picture of how narcissism functions internally and in relation to society. In any case, I expect people to think about it and make their own minds up, evangelical brainwasher I am not, despite appearances.
For hard data about FA, there are short-term stats available which point to FA occurrences arriving in groups that appear to be linked to conditions in society. Only time can ascertain the relationship, and that's why I constructed my thoughts above as a theory with a thought experiment serving as a sketch of proof 0 -
I was making a suggestion, not proving anything. A scenario where the eldest boy unwittingly precipitates the crisis seems very plausible to me, but I'm not a specialist.
So what evidence is there either way, and why do you assert that this is not related?
Hi Volchita,
In holding the idea up to the 'narrative' of Hawe being a certain type of raging narcissist, I'm doubting that any child would have the wherewithal internally to mount such a threat. Proof would be nice, but the pudding is inedible
If Hawe wasn't a very unusual type of narc, his response is impossible to identify or make sense of, and this is the reason it's a sticking point for me.
Outside of this, it is possible that the precipitating narcissistic insult involved a threat to legitimacy by a kid, but I'd guess the key driver there would be Clodagh bringing the marriage to the outside world via marriage counseling, either as a result of confrontations or preceding them.
Narcs never give up on trying to manipulate everyone and everything to suit themselves, regardless of how dire their circumstance. If dragged to marriage counseling, the therapist will be hoodwinked into believing Alan is the long-suffering victim, or Clodagh just misunderstands him and is unfair. Other moves would include representing the conflict with the kid (and wife) as a function of the kid/wife being 'mad', 'depressed', 'acting strange', 'paranoid' etc.
If the narc is successful in misrepresenting this (or the therapist doesn't understand narcissism, which is sadly usually the case), then the kid/wife can be ignored and dismissed, demeaned and blamed for the recurring conflict based on the opinion of the therapist. Any political angle to neutralize the threat.
If the therapist is narc-savvy and gives Clodagh the support to come to consciousness about her marriage, and the un-fixable, unapproachable nature of the issue, then, the result can be significantly different. How different is a question of the extent of Alan's disorder.
Anyway, I will reply later with an explanation of why I'm convinced Alan is a particular type of abnormal buzzer. How's that for ending where you should have started
ETA: I think Professore is talking about the fairness of the constructed narrative when it comes to Family Annihilation. The equivalent unfairness for women is to blame 'toxic femininity' for any and all occurrences of women killing their children. If labeled as such, it wouldn't be fair, given the whole picture to be considered.0 -
And here's the coda:
Family Annihilation suggests significant narcissism because it is a perfect exposition of the key attributes of the disorder: a complete and total disregard for the rights of others, absent compassion, and boundless, disproportionate-to-any-cause vengeance and rage.
Alan Hawe serves this up in spades. His calm 3-page letters and note suggest he released this type of rage by carrying out the murders.
For Jackboy,
It is my contention that the only remedial move makeable for this issue type is for public opinion to strongly condemn FA and the type of disorder that creates it. Narcissists care about nothing but their public image, it's how they measure self-worth. Knowing there's an awareness in the community of what abnormal psychology brings FA about will take away the narcissist's perfect out of being able to rely on the 'poor man just snapped' narrative. Maybe that will explain why I've written pages about narcissism here.
As well, overall I was a bit confused by the insistence that Alan was mentally ill, or a symbol of the 'problem with men'. I understand (now) that Ireland has sought to repair the damage to peoples' self-concepts, among other things, by upping the amount of mental health services available. The general belief that all inscrutable negative occurrences are expressions of mental health issues isn't a bad thing at all, save for when something gravely damaging and abnormal rears its head. In this case, arguing for compassion due to mental health interpretation increases leeway for disordered people like Alan to keep FA on the 'good idea' list.
For the other surprise, I had no idea that feminism in Ireland had morphed into something apparently dictatorial and illogical. I'd like to argue that the reason for this is not related to genuine grievance with men, but to the new bankrupt value narrative created by the effects of neo-liberal financial policy. In this sense, everyone feels threatened and diminished, but in different ways, according to the innate and constructed basic identities we have.
Okay, over and out 0 -
Intothesea wrote: »Hi Volchitsa,
I think it's well known that your risk of being killed is appreciable when exiting any abusive relationship type. What isn't related is an increased risk that the entire family will be wiped out, which suggests a different psychological issue is precipitating the result.
Do you have any evidence for this claim?
The British study (linked several times) puts family breakdown as the trigger in 2 out of every 3 cases of family annihilation.
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QUOTE=Intothesea
Family Annihilation suggests significant narcissism because it is a perfect exposition of the key attributes of the disorder: a complete and total disregard for the rights of others, absent compassion, and boundless, disproportionate-to-any-cause vengeance and rage.
Alan Hawe serves this up in spades. His calm 3-page letters and note suggest he released this type of rage by carrying out the murders.[/QUOTE]
Family annihilation does not in fact indicate "a complete and total disregard for the rights of others": otherwise the annihilators victims would be less discriminately as with other mass murderers. Rather it shows a disregard of the rights of other family members. A sense of family ownership is almost universal, the perpetrator performs his masculinity through dominance and control of his family.
When his position is threatened, as in an imminent family breakup, he exerts this masculine control in the only way left to him.
His traits are in common with domestic violence, or when an intimate partner is killed or when a child/children are killed:
https://granta.com/he-had-his-reasons/‘Prior Domestic Abuse is by far the number-one risk factor in these cases,’ writes Dr Jacquelyn Campbell of John Hopkins University, a national leader in the field of domestic violence and IPV (intimate partner violence) in the States. In a twelve city study of 408 domestic familial murder-suicides in the US, 91% were committed by men, and ‘intimate partner violence’ had occurred in 70% of them – though only one in four of these abusers had an arrest record for abuse at the time of the murder-suicide. Most of the time, when a man commits familial ‘murder-suicide’, it is the terminal act in a pre-existing pattern of domestic abuse.
For the other surprise, I had no idea that feminism in Ireland had morphed into something apparently dictatorial and illogical. I'd like to argue that the reason for this is not related to genuine grievance with men, but to the new bankrupt value narrative created by the effects of neo-liberal financial policy. In this sense, everyone feels threatened and diminished, but in different ways, according to the innate and constructed basic identities we have.
Okay, over and out
I think this that attack on 'Irish feminism' is pretty baseless.
Clearly domestic violence was present in a majority of cases of family annihilation spreading well beyond Ireland (Big US and UK studies). So your attack should broaden to include international experts on family annihilation in major western countries.
Many studies have been able to interview surviving perpetrators and family members to inform their conslusions. Threatening to kill the intimate partner and/or children in the event of a breakup is a common serious threat made by domestic abusers. (After the Hawe murders there was a huge surge in activity on Irish DV helplines).
The conclusions that Irish and International experts who actually look at the evidence and testimonies is thus based on evidence and reason and far from illogical.0
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