Cat is a Killer

pilly

B0jangles wrote: »

Weirdly, I tend to distinguish between wild animals, like birds of prey which are hunting to survive and which are a functioning part of an established ecosystem and an introduced pet animal which is allowed to hunt purely for its own entertainment. In the same way I understand that farmers are allowed to shoot dogs that come on to their land to worry sheep but are not allowed to poison red kites that they think are hunting their lambs.

By allowing your cat to roam freely and do whatever it wants, you are putting your own sense of satisfaction and your cat's needs correction your cat's entertainment well ahead of the wellbeing of our shared environment.

Some countries which have introduced cats recently enough to see the damage they do to native animal populations put extreme restrictions on their ability to roam freely; In Australia cats are either kept indoors or allowed outdoors in runs. Cats seen roaming freely are shot. It's not nice but it has been deemed necessary to protect native species.

I'm not asking for cats to be shot on sight, I just wish Irish cat owners like you could think a bit beyond 'what my cat wants' and find a balance between their cat's well-being with that of the Irish wildlife it kills for fun.

And I suppose I wish people would accept cats for what they are and not paint them as these evil creatures who kill for fun.

They are what they are and I accept that and allow nature to take its course. Unless you can genuinely point out to me what species of animal that this country needs that cats are killing off then I'll continue to allow my cat to live the way she was born to live.

sidious-sam

B0jangles wrote: »

If cats are as undomesticated and wild as you claim then surely that's all the more reason for the people who claim to care for them to exercise a modicum of control over their behaviour?

I didn't say wild. There's a difference between undomesticated and wild. For the most part we do. We neuter them, to prevent population explosions and the spread of disease, we feed them, which does actually tend to lower their hunting rates somewhat, and we give them shelter, which means we can keep them in at times. But anyone who knows cats knows that they operate on their own schedules, independent of what we want, for the most part.

In the countryside, we benefit from them killing rats and mice, but that benefit is lost if they can't go outside. It's a trade off. They'll come in when they're hungry or cold, or when they want to, and while you can technically train a cat, they don't take to it too well, and they can "forget" the training all too quickly.

sidious-sam

pilly wrote: »

And I suppose I wish people would accept cats for what they are and not paint them as these evil creatures who kill for fun.

They are what they are and I accept that and allow nature to take its course. Unless you can genuinely point out to me what species of animal that this country needs that cats are killing off then I'll continue to allow my cat to live the way she was born to live.

Birds! Oh god! Won't somebody please think of the birds!!!

sidious-sam

sidious-sam wrote: »

What did you mean then?

How many kittens does a wildcat have per year compared to domesticated cats? ( I am aware the domestic cat has a different ancestor btw, but still)

B0jangles

Where did I say cats were evil? I never suggested anything of the sort; I took great pains in fact to say that cats are what they are; highly evolved predators and extremely good hunters. That is what they are. I reserve my moral judgement for cat owners who put their own satisfaction and their cat's entertainment above the wellbeing of our native wildlife.

"Unless you can genuinely point out to me what species of animal that this country needs that cats are killing off then I'll continue to allow my cat to live the way she was born to live."

I have to admire how you've created an essentially unfulfillable requirement before you'll consider restricting your pet's hunting activities. I already posted a link to a study which found that over a 5 month period, the 9 million cats in the UK were expected to kill between 85-100 MILLION animals - Irish cats are unlikely to be significantly different to UK ones so I think we can reasonably assume they are approximately as destructive.

BTW unless your cat has to hunt for all its own food it's not living the way it was born to live - it's passing away the time between the meals you provide by killing anything not quick enough to get away.

Lots of baby birds fledging at the moment, I guess your cat's having a whale of a time!

B0jangles

B0jangles wrote: »

Where did I say cats were evil? I never suggested anything of the sort; I took great pains in fact to say that cats are what they are; highly evolved predators and extremely good hunters. That is what they are. I reserve my moral judgement for cat owners who put their own satisfaction and their cat's entertainment above the wellbeing of our native wildlife.

"Unless you can genuinely point out to me what species of animal that this country needs that cats are killing off then I'll continue to allow my cat to live the way she was born to live."

I have to admire how you've created an essentially unfulfillable requirement before you'll consider restricting your pet's hunting activities. I already posted a link to a study which found that over a 5 month period, the 9 million cats in the UK were expected to kill between 85-100 MILLION animals - Irish cats are unlikely to be significantly different to UK ones so I think we can reasonably assume they are approximately as destructive.

BTW unless your cat has to hunt for all its own food it's not living the way it was born to live - it's passing away the time between the meals you provide by killing anything not quick enough to get away.

Lots of baby birds fledging at the moment, I guess your cat's having a whale of a time!

+1, Why does it have to come down to a threat of extinction, isn't the needless killing enough?

pilly

B0jangles wrote: »

Where did I say cats were evil? I never suggested anything of the sort; I took great pains in fact to say that cats are what they are; highly evolved predators and extremely good hunters. That is what they are. I reserve my moral judgement for cat owners who put their own satisfaction and their cat's entertainment above the wellbeing of our native wildlife.

"Unless you can genuinely point out to me what species of animal that this country needs that cats are killing off then I'll continue to allow my cat to live the way she was born to live."

I have to admire how you've created an essentially unfulfillable requirement before you'll consider restricting your pet's hunting activities. I already posted a link to a study which found that over a 5 month period, the 9 million cats in the UK were expected to kill between 85-100 MILLION animals - Irish cats are unlikely to be significantly different to UK ones so I think we can reasonably assume they are approximately as destructive.

BTW unless your cat has to hunt for all its own food it's not living the way it was born to live - it's passing away the time between the meals you provide by killing anything not quick enough to get away.

Lots of baby birds fledging at the moment, I guess your cat's having a whale of a time!

So they've killed 85-100 millions animals. What species was made extinct or what animal that the environment "needed" more importantly has been made extinct? Not one.

B0jangles

sidious-sam wrote: »

Birds! Oh god! Won't somebody please think of the birds!!!

Charming, really charming.

pilly

riffmongous wrote: »

+1, Why does it have to come down to a threat of extinction, isn't the needless killing enough?

Ah stop, now we're getting into ridiculous emotive language. "Needless killing", really?

pilly

pilly wrote: »

Ah stop, now we're getting into ridiculous emotive language. "Needless killing", really?

But it is, cats are fed by their owners, they don't need to do it.

Shivi111

B0jangles wrote: »

Where did I say cats were evil? I never suggested anything of the sort; I took great pains in fact to say that cats are what they are; highly evolved predators and extremely good hunters. That is what they are. I reserve my moral judgement for cat owners who put their own satisfaction and their cat's entertainment above the wellbeing of our native wildlife.

"Unless you can genuinely point out to me what species of animal that this country needs that cats are killing off then I'll continue to allow my cat to live the way she was born to live."

I have to admire how you've created an essentially unfulfillable requirement before you'll consider restricting your pet's hunting activities. I already posted a link to a study which found that over a 5 month period, the 9 million cats in the UK were expected to kill between 85-100 MILLION animals - Irish cats are unlikely to be significantly different to UK ones so I think we can reasonably assume they are approximately as destructive.

BTW unless your cat has to hunt for all its own food it's not living the way it was born to live - it's passing away the time between the meals you provide by killing anything not quick enough to get away.

Lots of baby birds fledging at the moment, I guess you cat's having a whale of a time!

There is so much misinformation here I am not sure where to start...
Cats don't hunt for entertainment, that's not how cats work, it's not a hobby!!

And they don't kill anything that's not quick enough to get away, I have three cats and only one ever kills anything at all, and she very rarely gets her paws on a bird because birds are really fast, mostly rodents. I've seen my male cat lie on the grass within striking distance of a robin and not bother to chase it because he was snoozing (cats sleep a LOT).

People get irate about misinformation about cats because it leads to unjustifiably cruel behaviour towards them (all too often we hear about cats being poisoned, or people taking pot-shots at them with air rifles etc.)

It's fine to have a concern and discussion, but also important to accurately understand what a cat is, and how it operates.

pilly

riffmongous wrote: »

But it is, cats are fed by their owners, they don't need to do it.

So are you suggesting now that we start performing brain surgery on cats to remove their urge to hunt?

How do you suggest we stop all this "needless killing", bearing in mind there are way more feral cats in Ireland than tame ones.

B0jangles

pilly wrote: »

So they've killed 85-100 millions animals. What species was made extinct or what animal that the environment "needed" more importantly has been made extinct? Not one.

http://www.deakin.edu.au/about-deakin/media-releases/articles/invasive-predators-major-cause-of-species-extinctions

Introduced rodents, such as black rats and house mice, have the most widespread impacts of invasive predators worldwide, linked to the extinction of 75 species, including 52 birds, 21 mammals, and two reptiles.
Feral cats aren’t far behind, coming a close second, contributing to 63 extinctions, followed by red foxes, dogs, pigs, and the small Indian mongoose...


“In Australia, feral cats and foxes have caused the decline or extinction of two thirds of digging mammals – such as bilbies and bandicoots – over the past 200 years.
“Without these digging mammals, reduced disturbance to topsoil has led to impoverished landscapes with little organic matter, low rates of seed germination and higher bushfire risk."

So there you go, species definitively driven to extinction by the introduction of cats to the local environment and damage to the wider ecosystem caused by the loss of specific animals.


No such before/after numbers exist for Ireland because we have no records of what it was like before they arrived, but it would be ridiculous to suggest that Ireland is some kind of unique place where the introduction of a non-native predator had no effect on existing wildlife.

pilly

pilly wrote: »

So are you suggesting now that we start performing brain surgery on cats to remove their urge to hunt?

How do you suggest we stop all this "needless killing", bearing in mind there are way more feral cats in Ireland than tame ones.

Urge to hunt does not have to result in killing. Cats are just as happy hunting a toy or laser as an animal.

Oh but we haven't even established there is a need to stop it yet :rolleyes:

B0jangles

Shivi111 wrote: »

There is so much misinformation here I am not sure where to start...
Cats don't hunt for entertainment, that's not how cats work, it's not a hobby!!

And they don't kill anything that's not quick enough to get away, I have three cats and only one ever kills anything at all, and she very rarely gets her paws on a bird because birds are really fast, mostly rodents. I've seen my male cat lie on the grass within striking distance of a robin and not bother to chase it because he was snoozing (cats sleep a LOT).

People get irate about misinformation about cats because it leads to unjustifiably cruel behaviour towards them (all too often we hear about cats being poisoned, or people taking pot-shots at them with air rifles etc.)

It's fine to have a concern and discussion, but also important to accurately understand what a cat is, and how it operates.

Your observations of your three cats are not exactly the equivalent of a scientific study are they?

Shivi111

B0jangles wrote: »

Your observations of your three cats are not exactly the equivalent of a scientific study are they?

Absolutely not, I don't claim that they are. If I was publishing my comments in a journal they would have to be but this is a discussion.

I'm just pointing out that the comments in your post are not factual; backed up by an example.

B0jangles

Shivi111 wrote: »

Absolutely not, I don't claim that they are. If I was publishing my comments in a journal they would have to be but this is a discussion.

I'm just pointing out that the comments in your post are not factual; backed up by an example.

Please point out the factual errors in the post you quoted tia.

sidious-sam

riffmongous wrote: »

How many kittens does a wildcat have per year compared to domesticated cats? ( I am aware the domestic cat has a different ancestor btw, but still)

Ok, these are the statistics I've found so far. Bear in mind, this is for the Scottish Wildcat, which is classed officially as an isolated island population of the European Wildcat, so I suspect that their breeding habits are mostly similar.

Scottish Wildcat
Mating season: January to March, most births in April to May
Oestrus: 2 to 8 days, in presence of males
Gestation: 63 to 68 days
Litter size: Mean 3.4, range 1 to 8, skewed high by observations of hybrids
Age at independence: 4 to 5 months, up to 10 months
Age at sexual maturity: Females 10 to 12 months, males 9 to 10 months
Interbirth interval: one year, females can only exceptionally breed twice in one year, such as when the first litter is lost
Longevity: Probably around 6 to 8 years in the wild, up to 15 years in captivity

Domestic Cat
Mating season: Spring, Summer and Autumn
Oestrus: 7 to 10 days
Gestation: 64 to 67 days
Litter size: Mean 4.0, range 1 to 9
Age at sexual maturity: Male - 6 months Female - 6 to 10 months
Interbirth interval: Females can have 2 - 3 litters per year
Longevity: 4 - 5 years (Feral) 15 years (Domestic (Breed dependant))

pilly

B0jangles wrote: »

http://www.deakin.edu.au/about-deakin/media-releases/articles/invasive-predators-major-cause-of-species-extinctions




So there you go, species definitively driven to extinction by the introduction of cats to the local environment and damage to the wider ecosystem caused by the loss of specific animals.


No such before/after numbers exist for Ireland because we have no records of what it was like before they arrived, but it would be ridiculous to suggest that Ireland is some kind of unique place where the introduction of a non-native predator had no effect on existing wildlife.

So you give me back reports from Australia, not relevant.

pilly

B0jangles wrote: »

Please point out the factual errors in the post you quoted tia.

Well it's a factual error to suggest that cats kill for "fun" for a start.

Shivi111

B0jangles wrote: »

Please point out the factual errors in the post you quoted tia.

You claim cats hunt for entertainment, this is not factually correct.
In an earlier post you referenced 'fun', this is also not accurate.
It would also be physically impossible for a cat to kill 'anything not quick enough to get away' - hunting is a huge energy drain, they cannot do it continuously.

I'm just trying to highlight that, while people feel strongly on both sides of a discussion like this, and that's understandable, it's not completely helpful to make cats out to be some kind of super-psychopaths.

pilly

riffmongous wrote: »

Urge to hunt does not have to result in killing. Cats are just as happy hunting a toy or laser as an animal.

Oh but we haven't even established there is a need to stop it yet :rolleyes:

Oh so once we have we'll just go around giving all the feral cats toys and lasers will we? Are you even reading my posts or simply ignoring what you don't have a smart answer for?

sidious-sam

B0jangles wrote: »

Charming, really charming.

It was off the cuff, I apologise, but some of the arguments are sounding very Helen Lovejoyish

B0jangles

pilly wrote: »

So you give me back reports from Australia, not relevant.

Do you genuinely believe that introduced cats only caused massive damage to native ecosystems once there was a system in place to record that damage?

Getting serious "If a tree falls in the forest.." vibes right now.

pilly

And by the way if my cat was killed tomorrow whilst out wandering by a dog, car or whatever I'd accept that too as part of life.

B0jangles

Shivi111 wrote: »

You claim cats hunt for entertainment, this is not factually correct.
In an earlier post you referenced 'fun', this is also not accurate.
It would also be physically impossible for a cat to kill 'anything not quick enough to get away' - hunting is a huge energy drain, they cannot do it continuously.

I'm just trying to highlight that, while people feel strongly on both sides of a discussion like this, and that's understandable, it's not completely helpful to make cats out to be some kind of super-psychopaths.

Why does a well-fed pet cat hunt then if not for entertainment/fun? It's clearly not needed to to fulfill any physical need.

Also why would it be physically impossible for a cat to kill 'anything not quick enough to get away'? It's hardly a huge energy drain to catch and kill something that is literally by definition 'not quick enough to get away'.

Shivi111

B0jangles wrote: »

Why does a well-fed pet cat hunt then if not for entertainment/fun? It's clearly not needed to to fulfill any physical need.

Also why would it be physically impossible for a cat to kill 'anything not quick enough to get away'? It's hardly a huge energy drain to catch and kill something that is literally by definition 'not quick enough to get away'.

It's instinct, animals don't make decisions, or even have 'fun' as we understand it.

Cats hunt, and hunting takes energy, they don't just walk up to things an instantly kill them.

sidious-sam

Lots of people getting heated up here. Might I suggest that the "Problem" with cats is not actually with the cats, it's with people.
Crazy right? But here me out.
Kittens are seen as the most adorable things in the world (Rightly so! They are!) but kittens grow up and become cats. Cats are a lot harder to manage than kittens, so many people solve this issue by dumping them. In other cases, a family cat has a litter of kittens. What happens then? The kittens get dumped. Similar things happen to unwanted puppies, although maybe not as often now. The difference here is that unwanted dogs suck at living in the wild and are fairly easily caught. Cats can survive fairly well, and are much harder to catch. Thus feral cat numbers grow stupidly fast. The issue with bird numbers dwindling is more to do with feral populations than with your happy domestic moggy. So the answer is clear. Neuter your bloody cat, male or female. People tend to only neuter the females, because if they have a litter it's their problem, but if their male cat has a litter with someone else's female cat, that's their problem.
In this way, feral numbers are easier to control, and with TNR even begin to drop, and wild animals breathe a little easier. Everyone is happy. Wahey!

boomerang

B0jangles wrote: »

Why does a well-fed pet cat hunt then if not for entertainment/fun? It's clearly not needed to to fulfill any physical need.

Instinct. Predatory animals seize the opportunity to kill prey when it's presented them. Not because it's fun, but because they don't know where their next meal is coming from.

Lumen

B0jangles wrote: »

That is just a shamefully selfish way to behave IMHO, I really hope you're wrong about it being true of most cat owners.

Why is it shamefully selfish? Cats are clean animals that bury their excrement. Why would I want to deal with it if the cat can sort it out themselves?