Cat is a Killer

CeNedra

Hi!

Over a year ago I was away on business for a week and when I returned a very young cat had moved in with my dog. He is a very placid outdoor dog, 14 years old, who was happy enough with the cat to move into this house by the looks of it.

While I wasn't delighted to see the new family member (I've never had a cat, am more a dog person really) my husband and kids were delighted and had already started feeding the cat and taking him to vet etc etc. I guess I kind of got to like this cat as he absolutely doesn't give a sh1t about anybody or anything except himself and it is hard not to admire him for that.

I went with the flow but am really struggling at the moment with this cat as he is an awful killer. This morning, myself and the kids were sitting looking out at the cat pulling a crow out of a tree and taking about 20 minutes of 'playing' with him before eventually killing him, put me right off my breakfast I can tell you. This cat kills mice, a rat (a huge one), pigeons (feathers scattered all over the front lawn recently), now crows etc etc. I get the nature thing but he always plays with them for ages before killing him. It is unbelievably cruel what he does to his prey. He doesn't even eat them tbh.

He still gets on with the dog (elderly dog), but would often take a swipe at him and try to get a rise out of the dog, but that dog is not for moving.

Is this normal for cats? Are they all cold blooded killers? I think I'll stick with dogs in the future but this cat is still young so will be around for a while.

Anyway interested in thoughts on this situation.
Orla

TallGlass

Pretty standard issue with cats I would imagine. You can put a bell on the cats collar which usually alerts the victim to whats about to unfold.

baby and crumble

What you're describing is perfectly natural behaviour. Cats hunt, it's what they do. All you can really do if it bothers you that much is keep them inside or if you see them playing with their prey that's still alive, chase them away, let the prey relax and then set them free away from the house.

ardinn

Thats whats cats do - completely natural - leave the cat alone!!

Maybe get it some toys to play with, hang a cuddly toy from the tree so instead of killing the birds he can play with that!

Cats are cool!

CeNedra

Well the kids have made this toy from a ball of wool and a little ball and run around the house dragging it behind with the cat in hot pursuit. It is actually really funny and the kids love it.

I like the bell idea and might ask the husband to work his magic to get it on the cat.

Believe me I definitely leave this cat alone. While he is a beautiful looking animal I know he is not long since his last kill and that rat he killed that ended up in the dogs run - I was finished touching him at that point tbh.

VonVix

All pretty normal for a young healthy cat!

Maybe look into catnip toys? Might help him vent out his energy without someone *having* to interact with him.

Also, is he neutered?

hernie

CeNedra

Yes he is neutered. We actually thought he was a she and prioritised getting the job done and then the vet called to advise she was a he. We went ahead anyway as he was knocked out at that point and ready to go. The cat has been funny since he arrived and we still laugh about that mix up on his sex. He was hard to catch at the time to be fair so hard to check............

Knine

Would you not rescue the birds if possible? No way would I watch a cat playing with it's prey. Many a bird or mouse was rescued from our cats & they lived to fight another day.

OldNotWIse

I couldn't sit looking out my window at a crow being tortured for 20 minutes - I'd have to go out and try to help. That said, it is perfectly natural behavior. It varies from cat to cat. Some of mine are feral, blood-lusting brats. Others are lazy sh*ts who have sat blinking at prey that walks past them. Put a bell on the cat if you want it's victims to have a chance

CeNedra

It does sound bad not saving the crow, I guess I expected the cat to finish it a bit quicker and knew that crow was injured so probably didn't have a chance to survive.
Also - he was in the bog behind our garden so I'd have to climb over a dike to get him. A bit difficult early in the morning with kids to get out to school ..... excuses excuses .... He is a sadistic little fella ....

CJmasgrande

Just to point out "natural". Wild birds belong in the country as they occur naturally. On the other hand cats are here as introduced pets and owners should be responsible and keep them inside at least for the duration of the wild bird besting season to give young birds a fair chance of survival.

AvonEnniskerry

CJmasgrande wrote:

Just to point out "natural". Wild birds belong in the country as they occur naturally. On the other hand cats are here as introduced pets and owners should be responsible and keep them inside at least for the duration of the wild bird besting season to give young birds a fair chance of survival.

I'm sorry isn't this exactly what survival of the fittest is....

Alcoheda

TallGlass wrote: »

Pretty standard issue with cats I would imagine. You can put a bell on the cats collar which usually alerts the victim to whats about to unfold.

Every cat owner should do this.
Domestic cats have a devastating effect on the local ecology.
I'd feel for the cat, being hampered in what they do best but they get fed and housed so there's really no need for it.

Ms Doubtfire1

Cats kill birds. No way around that. I have lots of cats. I do however step in if a cat has a bird and I see it. I usually take between 8 and 10 birds of a my cats each week.
Furthermore I tie strips of soft toilet paper to the rails of my yard - drives them nuts and distracts from hunting birds.
Re catching a crow - that happens very very rarely and most likely the crow was either young or very old/sick. A normal cat doesn't take on a fully grown crow and crows are way too smart to be caught by a cat  - the shenanigans going on in my house between the cats and the crows are slapstick worthy. Just step in when you see him catch a bird and give him some catnip to play with. He'll be very much distracted for a while and than he'll be to spaced out for another while..;-)

OldNotWIse

AvonEnniskerry wrote: »

I'm sorry isn't this exactly what survival of the fittest is....

I don't think that necessarily applies in the context of pet ownership. We breed them then neuter, micro-chip, vaccinate them. They have cosy beds in centrally heated houses or insulated kennels. If they are sick, we take them to the vet for treatment and medication. If they are injured, we make sure their wounds are tended to. We buy them toys for stimulation and make sure they are socialized, generally not in a free roaming pack and tend to protect the little guys from the big guys (or as a JRT owner, sometimes the other way around!) - so no I don't think survival of the fittest applies to pet ownership. I know mine would certainly be f*cked if they had to fend for themselves. Darwin must be turning over in his grave at the thought of our pampered pets.

bmwguy

Many people get a cat for this very reason. They are skilled and effective hunters that can also be a pet. It's just what they are.
My dog wouldn't do it anyway. One of the funny things is to throw things in the river first the dog to retrieve. There are ducks there. Dog swims right in among the ducks but doesn't bother them. Very surprised the ducks tolerate it but they do. Used to have a Jack Russell and he would kill rodents no problem. Loved hunting them.

DEFTLEFTHAND

It's completely natural, I've a 15 year old tabby who is still hunting. Catching wild rabbits is his speciality, himself and my Jack Russell feast on them together. It's interesting really, it's like they have formed some sort of hunting partnership.

Cats and dogs never cease to amaze me.

pawrick

Cats will hunt, some more than others, it's just an unfortunate fact. Best solution is to build an enclosure / keep them indoors or at the very least limit their access to nesting birds at this time of year.

Fair play for getting him neutered btw, a lot of people don't bother.

CeNedra

What amazes me is how easily the dog (a Llewyn setter and absolute peach of a dog) accepted the cat into his house and how they get on. I didn't expect it. It is the reason I didn't put up a fight over keeping the cat in the first place (a wild cat of which there are a lot around the countryside here), I love that dog and he was happy to have the cat. Just kind of takes it in his stride. They sit side by side at the front of the house in a shaded area and just hang out. There is something just beautiful about it.

The dog hasn't an aggressive bone in his body, so the torture cat was a bit of a culture shock.

HONKEY TONK

AvonEnniskerry wrote: »

I'm sorry isn't this exactly what survival of the fittest is....

Do you have a cat?

kathleen37

This is what cats do. When it's rodents, people are generally grateful. Other animals/birds, not so much....

We have a herd of ferals (all neutered) that live in their own family/group sheds where they are fed twice a day. Getting the routine setup so they get fed and then shut in before dusk, has helped the bird population loads. We also feed the birds all year round and find this helps as the birds are there all the time and set up their own warning systems. We rarely lose any birds now - unless one of the monkey cats manages to find a nest while tree climbing...

I must admit, I've never been sure about a bell on a cat? It would drive me mental having one round my neck all the time so I'm not sure how I feel about putting one on cat?

Sorry - also meant to add - good for you for getting the boy done. As has been mentioned - lots of people wouldn't bother.

Alcoheda

kathleen37 wrote: »

This is what cats do. When it's rodents, people are generally grateful. Other animals/birds, not so much....

We have a herd of ferals (all neutered) that live in their own family/group sheds where they are fed twice a day. Getting the routine setup so they get fed and then shut in before dusk, has helped the bird population loads. We also feed the birds all year round and find this helps as the birds are there all the time and set up their own warning systems. We rarely lose any birds now - unless one of the monkey cats manages to find a nest while tree climbing...

I must admit, I've never been sure about a bell on a cat? It would drive me mental having one round my neck all the time so I'm not sure how I feel about putting one on cat?

Sorry - also meant to add - good for you for getting the boy done. As has been mentioned - lots of people wouldn't bother.

If your cats are stealing from birds nests you should definitely put a bell on them.
Their lives are precarious enough without being the sport for your pets.

AvonEnniskerry

Natural selection or survival of the fittest still applies to modern day situations. Every creature has to evolve to adapt despite modern day changes.

PropJoe10

Cats kill things. It's perfectly normal. I'd be more worried about the cat if it was running away from a rat in pure terror.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

AvonEnniskerry wrote: »

I'm sorry isn't this exactly what survival of the fittest is....

No, no it's not.

kathleen37

Alcoheda wrote: »

If your cats are stealing from birds nests you should definitely put a bell on them.
Their lives are precarious enough without being the sport for your pets.

They are not my pets. They are feral. We can't touch them.

And whilst I'm very open to debate on the issue of bells on cats - I really don't understand how a bell on a cat could help in relation to cats climbing trees and getting into nests?

Ms Doubtfire1

kathleen37 wrote: »

Alcoheda wrote: »

If your cats are stealing from birds nests you should definitely put a bell on them.
Their lives are precarious enough without being the sport for your pets.

They are not my pets. They are feral. We can't touch them.

And whilst I'm very open to debate on the issue of bells on cats - I really don't understand how a bell on a cat could help in relation to cats climbing trees and getting into nests?

Agreed. They would only warn the adult birds. Plus, bells on cats require a collar and thats a whole other kettle of fish - no collars on my cats. I just watch them - and that seems to work. PS. Nice to see another Eddings fan OP.

B0jangles

Any mouth or claw contact with a cat is almost certainly going to kill a bird, so even if you are one of the minority of cat owners who even bother to stop their pets 'playing' with the birds they catch, the bird will almost certainly die of blood poisoning afterwards. Cats should be kept indoors or in a properly secured garden (yes, cat-proof fencing exists).

The only truly responsible solution is for cat owners to be held as accountable for their pet's behaviour as dog owners are. Dogs are not allowed to roam freely to hunt whatever and whenever they choose, cats shouldn't be either. They are extremely successful predators who hunt for fun; the only reason the damage they cause to the natural environment is permitted is because they only kill 'worthless' wild animals instead of livestock.

kathleen37

kathleen37 wrote: »

This is what cats do. When it's rodents, people are generally grateful. Other animals/birds, not so much....
.

I'd include crows in the rodents list too to be honest. I wouldn't like to see a cat killing robins etc but rats, mice and crows they are doing their job.

skallywag

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

A normal cat doesn't take on a fully grown crow and crows are way too smart to be caught by a cat

Definitely true, there is no way that a cat will be able to come out the better of a battle with a healthy adult crow, as mentioned this crow must have been either very young or impaired somehow. In fact a healthy adult would very likely injure the cat. It is a little known fact that crows are one of the most intelligent birds that we have, most assume them to be stupid.

Ms Doubtfire1

I must open a thread on crows.They are fascinating.

Zillah

Human civilisation has decimated birds' natural habitats while simultaneously bloating the cat population far beyond what would be naturally possible. I'd do everything in my power to stop my cat from successfully hunting.

Wild birds are being wiped out by their billions all over the world because of our predilection for keeping cats as pets. There is nothing natural about it.

Ms Doubtfire1

Zillah wrote: »

Human civilisation has decimated birds' natural habitats while simultaneously bloating the cat population far beyond what would be naturally possible. I'd do everything in my power to stop my cat from successfully hunting.

Wild birds are being wiped out by their billions all over the world because of our predilection for keeping cats as pets. There is nothing natural about it.

That' basically blaming the cat for her natural behavior - whilst our un - natural behavior of destroying habitats needed for birds is excused.Latest example? The wildfires all over the country. You can be sure 50% of the were lit on purpose to get grazing grants from the government with a fine disregard to the nesting season.So blaming cats? Nope. don't fly with me.

PMBC

Had two cats similar to this over the years. Smokie used to disembowel baby rabbits and leave at the door. She met her unDarwinian end courtesy of a passing car. Buzz was adopted from a cat sanctuary, beautiful colouring of brown and caramel. She killed pygmy shrews, birds and rodents. Eventually we 'belled her' and she was less successful, I recall.

Zillah

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

That' basically blaming the cat for her natural behavior - whilst our un - natural behavior of destroying habitats needed for birds is excused.Latest example? The wildfires all over the country. You can be sure 50% of the were lit on purpose to get grazing grants from the government with a fine disregard to the nesting season.So blaming cats? Nope. don't fly with me.

Do you imagine I'm going to go around spanking cats? Giving them a telling off and making them feel bad? What a bizarre desire to white knight the poor kitties you have. I also didn't excuse our destruction of habitats; in fact I did literally the opposite and blamed it for the problem.

Regardless, I'm blaming cat-ownership as a whole, and cat-owners more specifically. Give them a bell. Spay your cats. I'd love if we could declaw them without maiming but I understand that's not possible.

I'd also like if we had about a tenth as many cats kept as pets but there's no accounting for taste.

Ms Doubtfire1

all my cats are neutered and I spay/castrate anything on 4 legs that walks into the yard with my own money.
I agree there are too many cats. But WHO caused that? People who don't spay/neuter. People who moved away from the house leaving their cats behind. Humans created the problem.Humans need to fix it. And not by blaming the cat for natural behavior.

Kristopherus

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

Latest example? The wildfires all over the country. You can be sure 50% of the were lit on purpose to get grazing grants from the government with a fine disregard to the nesting season.So blaming cats? Nope. don't fly with me.

Have you got evidence for that allegation?

Ms Doubtfire1

Kristopherus wrote: »

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

Latest example? The wildfires all over the country. You can be sure 50% of the were lit on purpose to get grazing grants from the government with a fine disregard to the nesting season.So blaming cats? Nope. don't fly with me.

Have you got evidence for that allegation?

plenty on the various reports of the gorsefires. Google is your friend

Alcoheda

kathleen37 wrote: »

They are not my pets. They are feral. We can't touch them.

And whilst I'm very open to debate on the issue of bells on cats - I really don't understand how a bell on a cat could help in relation to cats climbing trees and getting into nests?

Well that's hardly the point, I'm talking about damage limitation.
I commend you for neutering the cats, especially seeing as their not your responsibility, that can't have been cheep or easy.

Zillah

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

And not by blaming the cat for natural behavior.

No one telling your cat he has been a naughty naughty boy. What an unusual point to get fixated on.

Shivi111

This is an interesting thread... and I do wonder, is anyone aware of any studies that actually demonstrate that cats are having a negative impact on bird populations over time in Ireland?

I've done some googling and I can find the usual headline type conjecture but no actual data to demonstrate that a real issue exists... would be interesting to see some figures.

Don't get me wrong, I know cats do kill birds but I'm not sure that they are actually impacting on the numbers - lots of birds also die for lots of reasons and I wonder if the weaker/ ill birds are the more likely to be caught (ie - those that would die anyway...). I don't know that taking cats out of the equation would change anything.

Zillah

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/technology/science/report-finds-north-american-skies-quieter-by-15-billion-fewer-birds/article31876053/

Human activity kills billions of birds a year, the report notes. Collisions with power lines, buildings and vehicles account for about 900 million bird deaths annually in Canada and the United States, while domesticated and feral cats kill another 2.6 billion – or about a quarter of the landbird population.

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/cats-kill-more-one-billion-birds-each-year

America’s cats, including housecats that adventure outdoors and feral cats, kill between 1.3 billion and 4.0 billion birds in a year, says Peter Marra of the Smithsonian Conservation Biology Institute in Washington, D.C., who led the team that performed the analysis.

Whatever the exact number, amongst the other things we do to destroy bird populations, having hundreds of millions of cats is certainly contributing.

Shivi111

Zillah wrote: »

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/technology/science/report-finds-north-american-skies-quieter-by-15-billion-fewer-birds/article31876053/


https://www.sciencenews.org/article/cats-kill-more-one-billion-birds-each-year


Whatever the exact number, amongst the other things we do to destroy bird populations, having hundreds of millions of cats is certainly contributing.

But that's all America, different to Ireland really.
I'm not saying cats don't kill birds... but imagine the following scenario:

Tomorrow, there are no cats outside in Ireland and not a single bird is killed by a cat. Imagine, we then see an upsurge in the bird populations, and we agree, yes, cats were the issue.

But... suddenly our expanded bird population are all vying for the same (already limited) resources. The birds starve, disease spreads more rapidly due to denser populations, not all surviving birds are well nourished enough or have suitable places to nest and breed.

The surge is population rights itself and we are back to our pre-cat ban bird population levels.

We let our cats back outside, and life goes on....

Possible, right?

Zillah

There is no reason to assume the bird population would drop back to current levels, no. Going by the US numbers (fully a quarter of all birds killed by cats per year), it's pretty safe to say the stable cat-free bird population would be a lot higher.

Shivi111

Zillah wrote: »

There is no reason to assume the bird population would drop back to current levels, no. Going by the US numbers (fully a quarter of all birds killed by cats per year), it's pretty safe to say the stable cat-free bird population would be a lot higher.

But we have a different situation here, it's wrong to go by US numbers because the situation here is different. You can't take that set of data and apply it here, that's not how research works.

I'm not saying it's not possible that cats in Ireland are an issue, they very well might be, but i won't jump on a conjecture bandwagon without any actual evidence available to back it up.

Ragnar Lothbrok

My cat just sits and stares at the starlings who swoop down to feed out of his food bowl. Occasionally he makes a very half-hearted attempt to catch one, but generally gives up after they have escaped him a few times.

He's never brought any dead bird, mouse, rat, etc to my door, either, and he's 8 years old now. My guess is that he's far too lazy and well-fed to bother actually going to the trouble of hunting for his own dinner

ED E

Shivi111 wrote: »

But we have a different situation here, it's wrong to go by US numbers because the situation here is different. You can't take that set of data and apply it here, that's not how research works.

I'm not saying it's not possible that cats in Ireland are an issue, they very well might be, but i won't jump on a conjecture bandwagon without any actual evidence available to back it up.

By the fact that of the small number of bird ringers (catch, tag, release) I know quite a few also own outdoor cats I'd be very sceptical that anyone of merit thinks its a problem.

mardybumbum

CeNedra wrote: »

Hi!

Over a year ago I was away on business for a week and when I returned a very young cat had moved in with my dog. He is a very placid outdoor dog, 14 years old, who was happy enough with the cat to move into this house by the looks of it.

While I wasn't delighted to see the new family member (I've never had a cat, am more a dog person really) my husband and kids were delighted and had already started feeding the cat and taking him to vet etc etc. I guess I kind of got to like this cat as he absolutely doesn't give a sh1t about anybody or anything except himself and it is hard not to admire him for that.

I went with the flow but am really struggling at the moment with this cat as he is an awful killer. This morning, myself and the kids were sitting looking out at the cat pulling a crow out of a tree and taking about 20 minutes of 'playing' with him before eventually killing him, put me right off my breakfast I can tell you. This cat kills mice, a rat (a huge one), pigeons (feathers scattered all over the front lawn recently), now crows etc etc. I get the nature thing but he always plays with them for ages before killing him. It is unbelievably cruel what he does to his prey. He doesn't even eat them tbh.

He still gets on with the dog (elderly dog), but would often take a swipe at him and try to get a rise out of the dog, but that dog is not for moving.

Is this normal for cats? Are they all cold blooded killers? I think I'll stick with dogs in the future but this cat is still young so will be around for a while.

Anyway interested in thoughts on this situation.
Orla

From wikipedia

Perhaps the best known element of cats' hunting behavior, which is commonly misunderstood and often appalls cat owners because it looks like torture, is that cats often appear to "play" with prey by releasing it after capture. This behavior is due to an instinctive imperative to ensure that the prey is weak enough to be killed without endangering the cat.[168] This behavior is referred to in the idiom "cat-and-mouse game" or simply "cat and mouse".

Zillah

Shivi111 wrote: »

But we have a different situation here, it's wrong to go by US numbers because the situation here is different. You can't take that set of data and apply it here, that's not how research works.

It is reasonable to conclude that the US data would be comparable to our own, unless you can think of anything that would render us fundamentally different. Cats are the same everywhere; urban environments are largely the same.

I'm not saying it's not possible that cats in Ireland are an issue, they very well might be, but i won't jump on a conjecture bandwagon without any actual evidence available to back it up.

Yet you're happy to engage in wild conjecture in the opposite direction, suggesting that the bird population would magically be unchanged with or without cats, because you like cats. You casually dismiss data for an entire continent showing cats decimating the bird population because you're happy to assume that we're somehow an exception.

kathleen37

Zillah wrote: »

You casually dismiss data for an entire continent showing cats decimating the bird population because you're happy to assume that we're somehow an exception.

The point is that there is no Irish data to dismiss.

The US is such a huge country, with such differing land mass types, that trying to compare the whole of the US to Ireland is just null.