Diesel vehicle restrictions in Dublin?

Chris_5339762

bk wrote: »

To put this in perspective, you could make the same trip for free (excluding tolls) in an EV!

Driving Dublin to Cork and back will cost you about €40 to €50 in the above cars in fuel. The same in an EV using public charging is FREE and using at home charging about €8!!

EV's are pretty amazing.

Without derailing the thread too much, yes EVs are amazing. And IMO they will take over from petrol/diesel naturally once their range is that of a tank of petrol and they are as quick (nearly) to refill/recharge/swap-batteries as a petrol.

I can't make that trip for free. My personal situation: I have to park in a dodgy spot at work. No government is going to put in EV recharging stations there, they'll be trashed very quickly.

What about my apartment and my underground carpark? I can't put EV charging infrastructure there, and the management company will NEVER supply this because it'll be ridiculously expensive.

I do fully agree though, EV is free at the moment but it'll be taxed eventually. Get petrol/diesel off the road and suddenly governments worldwide will lose millions in fuel taxes. Then electricity for cars will be taxed to the same extent. Its only natural.

magicbastarder

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

What about my apartment and my underground carpark? I can't put EV charging infrastructure there, and the management company will NEVER supply this because it'll be ridiculously expensive.

are there no grants? a guy i know recently got a plug-in hybrid, and the charging point at his house (private house with driveway) for free/included in price. i know an apartment is a different situation though.

zetalambda

Diesel fumes aren't really a problem in a small capital city like Dublin. Visit Mexico city, Bangkok or Manila and you'll understand immediately why so many large cities are implementing restrictions or bans although these are extreme cases. Hot air is more of a problem in Dublin!

Bray Head

Perhaps the most absurd case of optics over engineering was when they rolled out a diesel model of the Smart Fourtwo.

This for a two-person car specifically marketed at those who make short journeys around town and can take advantage of its shorter length to find parking spaces.

It manages 0 to 100km/h in a mere 17 seconds!

bk

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

What about my apartment and my underground carpark? I can't put EV charging infrastructure there, and the management company will NEVER supply this because it'll be ridiculously expensive.

Actually many management companies have no problem letting chargers to be installed in underground car parks. Many people have gotten it done over on the EV forum.

As for the cost, the ESB ecars will do it for free for people who buy new EV's

It also isn't particularly expensive if you need to get it done yourself (buying second hand EV). In the end it is just fancy plug.

zetalambda wrote: »

Diesel fumes aren't really a problem in a small capital city like Dublin. Visit Mexico city, Bangkok or Manila and you'll understand immediately why so many large cities are implementing restrictions or bans although these are extreme cases. Hot air is more of a problem in Dublin!

Just because it is worse other places, doesn't mean we shouldn't be trying to fix it here too!

Also NOX and PM's are invisible and odourless, so you don't actually know how much you are actually getting.

loyatemu

monument wrote: »

I think electric bicycles, and electric and non-electric cargo bicycles should be subsidised in the kind of way Oslo or France has.

they should allow a higher limit on the bike to work scheme for electric bikes - currently the limit is €1000 for any type of bike, most decent electrics are more than this.

.G.

bk wrote:

Really, you couldn't be arsed saving a couple thousand Euros a year!

No need for the rolleyes Mr condescending, you love EV and think the rest of us are mad, we get it. I'm not interested in EV at the moment cos I find them all very bland and boring looking and I'm not convinced by the tech, yet.

More importantly though I wouldn't be saving anything like the figures you mention, if indeed I'd save anything at all, my current car is owned by me whereas I'd need a loan to get an EV which of course I'd have to pay for. I put about 1500 a year in petrol into my car, one annual full service costs me 100 quid from my mate.

monument

loyatemu wrote: »

they should allow a higher limit on the bike to work scheme for electric bikes - currently the limit is ?1000 for any type of bike, most decent electrics are more than this.

FYI you just pay the amount over the ?1,000, the below and above ?1,000 are just calculated separately.

There might be a good justification for both increasing the limit and offering a grant -- you could make it a choice of one or the other.

Also, Bike to Work scheme doesn't help a number of groups, including retired people, businesses, the self employed, stay at home parents, carers, teens living in the country or what ever reason could use ebikes to cycle further etc.

loyatemu

monument wrote: »

FYI you just pay the amount over the ?1,000, the below and above ?1,000 are just calculated separately.

I think in effect most employers have a limit of 1K on the scheme as above that there are BIK implications and it becomes a pain for them to administer.

Also, Bike to Work scheme doesn't help a number of groups, including retired people, businesses, the self employed, stay at home parents, carers, teens living in the country or what ever reason could use ebikes to cycle further etc.

this is true, but as with the Taxsaver scheme they've obviously decided just applying it to PAYE workers is sufficient. Presumably including other groups increases the administrative overhead without adding a lot of extra people (self-employed people are more likely to have to drive for work, retired people are less likely to cycle and have free public transport etc).

hognef

bk wrote: »

There is no reason why new car sales shouldn't be something like 40% full EV, 60% hybrids and 10 to 20% Diesel and Petrol like it is in Norway.

For a total of 110-120%...? ;-)

Your numbers are actually wrong. 2016 sales in Norway were:

16% fully electric
13% plug-in hybrid
11% non-plug-in hybrid
31% diesel only
29% petrol only

Source (in Norwegian): http://www.dinside.no/motor/beste-pa-30-ar-og-hybridenes-ar/66587363

The total of fully and partial electric cars is roughly 40%, which might be where the confusion comes from.

n97 mini

superg wrote: »

No need for the rolleyes Mr condescending, you love EV and think the rest of us are mad, we get it. I'm not interested in EV at the moment cos I find them all very bland and boring looking and I'm not convinced by the tech, yet.

Have you driven an EV?

.G.

n97 mini wrote: »

Have you driven an EV?

Whats that got to do with anything? Thought this was a thread about diesel cars restrictions in Dublin yet it's turning into a thread about EV's of which I'm sure there's loads already.

To answer though, no I haven't and why would I since I've no money to buy one and no interest in buying one. I also haven't driven a Ferrari since I've also no intention of buying one.

dashcamdanny

Dublin bus has 300 odd buses that use the Volvo D7C-215 engine . The AV and the AX. Big 7L engines. If you have ever had the misfortune to drive behind, you will know they are far from low emission. The black smoke that comes from them leaves a trail of soot on the road. Although the AVs are being very slowly phased out at the moment, I would think the same engine will be in the fleet for quite a while.

Alf Veedersane

bk wrote: »

This is what the government needs to do:

- Increase tax on Diesel, make it so that is costs the same as petrol *
- Increase motor tax rates on Diesels, to make them less attractive
- Generous government scrapage deals on Diesels, but only if you buy an EV or plug-in EV to replace it.
- Make motor tax zero for EV's (it is already very low, more about marketing).
- Maybe interest free government loans for EV's, on top of the already generous EV incentives
- The government needs to spend a lot more building out EV charging infrastructure.

* I think there is a psychological effect every time people pass a service station and see those big signs that show Diesel being cheaper then petrol. Diesel needs to be the same or even better more expensive then the petrol and then people might be more inclined to go with a petrol hybrid car.

BTW the money to help incentivise EV's can come from the increased tax on Diesel and increased motor tax on Diesels.

Of course allowances would need to be made for Diesel for commercial use (buses, trucks, etc.).

All of this. I had hoped the policy on alternative fuels would be a bit more ambitious and include this and more on top that would make the EVs more attractive to use, eg no tolls, free parking etc.

The natural start was to disincentivise diesel but that didn't happen.

I suspect it will be mostly window dressing from the government who will hope that the market will go in the direction that they are reluctant to push it towards.

listermint

superg wrote: »

Whats that got to do with anything? Thought this was a thread about diesel cars restrictions in Dublin yet it's turning into a thread about EV's of which I'm sure there's loads already.

To answer though, no I haven't and why would I since I've no money to buy one and no interest in buying one. I also haven't driven a Ferrari since I've also no intention of buying one.

Because you said they were bland and boring and haven't driven one therefore your can't have an opinion on one or caveat with that you haven't any real knowledge of them but assume they are bland and boring..

And you also haven't don't the maths on running costs fyi.

One of the guys got an ioniq and has driven well over 1000km on 16 cents and his car tax is 120 euro.

What's yours...

gctest50

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Dublin bus has 300 odd buses that use the Volvo D7C-215 engine . The AV and the AX. Big 7L engines. If you have ever had the misfortune to drive behind, you will know they are far from low emission. ........

There is an optional exhaust filter and catalyst for those

.G.

listermint wrote: »

Because you said they were bland and boring and haven't driven one therefore your can't have an opinion on one or caveat with that you haven't any real knowledge of them but assume they are bland and boring..

And you also haven't don't the maths on running costs fyi.

One of the guys got an ioniq and has driven well over 1000km on 16 cents and his car tax is 120 euro.

What's yours...

To look at. I didn't say anything about driving one. It's just an opinion.

And good for him but I thought someone in here said it costs about 8 euro to charge it overnight, that's 56 quid a week. Also he's had to actually pay for his iconiq and that's money I am currently not having to pay anyone so once again, he's not really "saving" anything over me is he?

EVs have their place but it's not in my garden as of yet unless someone gives me one for free. Only then might I actually be "saving" money as opposed to my current transport costs.

That's my final contribution to this current thread derailment.

n97 mini

superg wrote: »

Whats that got to do with anything? Thought this was a thread about diesel cars restrictions in Dublin yet it's turning into a thread about EV's of which I'm sure there's loads already.

To answer though, no I haven't and why would I since I've no money to buy one and no interest in buying one. I also haven't driven a Ferrari since I've also no intention of buying one.

Don't knock em till you try em.

coylemj

n97 mini wrote: »

Don't knock em till you try em.

He can't have an opinion on the aesthetics until he drives one?

superg wrote: »

I'm not interested in EV at the moment cos I find them all very bland and boring looking

n97 mini

superg wrote: »

To look at. I didn't say anything about driving one. It's just an opinion.

And good for him but I thought someone in here said it costs about 8 euro to charge it overnight, that's 56 quid a week. Also he's had to actually pay for his iconiq and that's money I am currently not having to pay anyone so once again, he's not really "saving" anything over me is he?

EVs have their place but it's not in my garden as of yet unless someone gives me one for free. Only then might I actually be "saving" money as opposed to my current transport costs.

That's my final contribution to this current thread derailment.

Do the maths. A 20kw overnight charge at 7c a kw is 1.40. Far from 8 euro. Not many​ will need a charge every night.

In fairness you're derailing this thread with stuff like 56 quid a week to charge an EV.

n97 mini

coylemj wrote: »

He can't have an opinion on the aesthetics until he drives one?

He can. It's the other stuff that doesn't stack up.

.G.

n97 mini wrote: »

Do the maths. A 20kw overnight charge at 7c a kw is 1.40. Far from 8 euro. Not many​ will need a charge every night.

In fairness you're derailing this thread with stuff like 56 quid a week to charge an EV.

I didn't bring up EVs. The 8 euro came from a previous post by BK but looking back he didn't mention per night like I thought I read. Someone else mentioned 1000km for 16c which still ends up way more per year than I spend on petrol. Also BK was the one I responded to cos he seemed to make out like I was mad for not being interested in "saving thousands a year" with an EV and I have simply tried to point out to him and everyone else who has quoted me that I wouldn't be saving anything like that, if I even saved at all for the very clear and simple reasons I have pointed out.

The end.

listermint

superg wrote: »

I didn't bring up EVs. The 8 euro came from a previous post by BK but looking back he didn't mention per night like I thought I read. Someone else mentioned 1000km for 16c which still ends up way more per year than I spend on petrol. Also BK was the one I responded to cos he seemed to make out like I was mad for not being interested in "saving thousands a year" with an EV and I have simply tried to point out to him and everyone else who has quoted me that I wouldn't be saving anything like that, if I even saved at all for the very clear and simple reasons I have pointed out.

The end.

Your completely wrong and you have a terrible grasp of maths if you think 16 cents for 1000km is way more than you pay for petrol per year unless you are getting petrol for free it's a lie.

Btw the 16 cents it cost him is because he has been charging for free at the local fast charger.

Its usually as pointed to around 2 to three euro to fill it up.

I suggest you get out a calculator if you think you are even coming close to that with your petrol , gas stuff... Pun intended

n97 mini

listermint wrote: »

Your completely wrong and you have a terrible grasp of maths if you think 16 cents for 1000km is way more than you pay for petrol per year unless you are getting petrol for free it's a lie.

I can't quite make out, but I think superg has a company car and all fuel is provided. Which is fair nuff. Not sure tho, maybe he/she could clarify.

Pugzilla

Why are people so against EV?

All vehicles will be electrics within a few decades regardless.

K.Flyer

Pugzilla wrote: »

Why are people so against EV?

All vehicles will be electrics within a few decades regardless.

But the electricity won't be, road tax will creep up and you still need to generate tons of electricity to charge them up.

coylemj

Pugzilla wrote: »

Why are people so against EV?

People are not necessarily 'agin' EVs.

I think the attitude that you're observing is pushback because of the way this thread has morphed into an altar where you must kneel and worship the EV or be branded a gas-guzzling heretic.

.G.

listermint wrote: »

Your completely wrong and you have a terrible grasp of maths if you think 16 cents for 1000km is way more than you pay for petrol per year unless you are getting petrol for free it's a lie.

Btw the 16 cents it cost him is because he has been charging for free at the local fast charger.

Its usually as pointed to around 2 to three euro to fill it up.

I suggest you get out a calculator if you think you are even coming close to that with your petrol , gas stuff... Pun intended

Yes I am wrong in that I'm not reading things very well today, my apologies! However I *still wouldn't save thousands a year if i bought an EV because I'd have to pay for the car.

My petrol costs me about 2k per year which is obviously way more than the EV would cost for the same mileage but again, I don't own one so i'd have to pay for it and thats makes it impossible for one to save me money!

Running costs= no comparsions. Other costs= not worth it.

Pugzilla

I love a high revving petrol engine.
Will be happy to see diesels gone though. Sound and smell terrible.

monument

The promotion of electric cars should be restricted to taxis, car share, state fleets, and people who have a demonstrable need for cars (ie people with disabilities or other illnesses or mobility issues.

We won't see quick results promoting electric cars. And electric cars give their uses a good feeling, when electric cars are the same as normal cars in promoting unsuitable land use, especially in urban centres but that does not only apply in cities but also in towns and, what I like to call our sprawling "rural suburbs" around the country.

Instead of promoting one car over another, promote walking, cycling and public transport. Promoting electric cars just cleans the tailpipe emissions in the short term, promoting cycling unlocks many benefit, including: cleaner air, transport capacity, better physical and mental health due to more activity, better land use, links well with and increases the station reach of high-capacity public transport etc.

Re grants, here's part of a submission I made to the climate change action plan --

For example, the city of Oslo are giving residents a grant of 25% of the cost of an electric cargo bicycles (up a maximum of 10,000 Norwegian Krone, which is around ?1,000); and the island of Jersey offers a grant of ?300 for electric bicycles over ?1,500 and a 20% discount below ?1,500.

Oslo uses its Climate and Energy Fund to give its grant, but there is no reason why such a grant should not also apply to non-electric cargo bicycles which have in their own right the potential to replace many car trips for parents with children and others in need of extra carrying capacity.

loyatemu wrote: »

I think in effect most employers have a limit of 1K on the scheme as above that there are BIK implications and it becomes a pain for them to administer.

I was told by a retailer it's not the big of a deal but maybe they are wrong.

loyatemu wrote: »

this is true, but as with the Taxsaver scheme they've obviously decided just applying it to PAYE workers is sufficient. Presumably including other groups increases the administrative overhead without adding a lot of extra people

Yes, but they, ie government, don't have a great track record.Why do we give a grant for electric cars and not give a grant for electric bikes or cargo bikes? Do it like Oslo and have it like an home energy saving grant.

loyatemu wrote: »

(self-employed people are more likely to have to drive for work, retired people are less likely to cycle and have free public transport etc).

While electric bikes and cargo bikes may not be able to convince all self-employed people to switch, the option would be helpful. Cargo bikes can help with loads, electric bikes can help with distances, and not all self-employed people are driving around all day, an increasing amount are just office based.

Retired people in other countries are still one of the largest users of electric bicycles and here retired people are in large parts of the country and cities are very much strong car users -- public transport is still lacking in this country and even in countries with far high reach of public transport, it does not go where everybody needs to go.

A lot of people and businesses, including the underemployed, don't can't access any of the full benefits of the bike to work scheme -- I don't think that's as easy to dismiss as you are trying to. Scheme like the bike to work scheme mainly benefit those who are in better position to pay in the first place.