Diesel vehicle restrictions in Dublin?

Roadhawk

Excuse the pun but i think this is gas...

"Dublin and other urban areas could join London, Paris, Stuttgart, Amsterdam, Athens and Mexico City in announcing bans or restrictions on the use of diesel-powered vehicles."

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/dublin-could-introduce-restrictions-on-diesel-vehicles-1.2995553

I'm not so sure if the diesel going population is that high in Dublin to warrant restrictions such as congestion charges and tax increase to diesel.

You can be guaranteed to see an increase to bus fairs, train fairs and delivery costs as they all use diesel vehicles for the most part.

gctest50

Mr Naughten has already told an environmental conference that air pollution in the Republic was costing the State €3,800 per minute in health costs

That part will get attention



Doctors Against Diesel are calling for the use of diesel fuels to be banned in our urban areas and progressively phased out elsewhere. We want to see a future in which personal exposure to soot and gases from vehicles is dramatically reduced

bk

Roadhawk wrote: »

I'm not so sure if the diesel going population is that high in Dublin to warrant restrictions such as congestion charges and tax increase to diesel.

Huh! The vast majority of cars sold in Ireland in the past 10 years are Diesels.

The majority of Taxi's running around Dublin and the majority of cars entering Dublin are Diesel.

This is all due to the stupidity of the green party incentivising Diesel over Petrol 10 years ago!

So, yes, moves should be made to promote EV's and hybrid electric petrol cars and to move away from Diesels.

However I think buses and trucks should be left for the moment (but also tackled in time).

Buses and trucks already have to adhere to much stricter pollution standards then Diesel cars do.

It is pretty shocking, but a 2017 Volkswagen Golf produces about twice as much NOx and PM's as the Dublin Bus sitting next to it!!!!

Fill both with passengers and the NOX/PM per passenger KM actually makes buses one the cleanest forms of transport (second only to electric trains).

Having said that, it would be nice to see the NTA/DB start buying hybrid buses, they have already become common in London and the price premium has dropped substantially. In time we will hopefully see full EV buses.

But in the meantime, Diesel cars are shockingly actually the much bigger problem!

oppenheimer1

Won't happen as it won't be popular. The most that will happen will be that they will ban pre Euro 3 vehicles from the canal cordon, which will be both regressive as sit will hit the poorest the hardest and pointless as the numbers of these vehicles is very small.

It will however let the govt say they've done something.

bk

gctest50 wrote: »

That part will get attention

Doctors Against Diesel are calling for the use of diesel fuels to be banned in our urban areas and progressively phased out elsewhere. We want to see a future in which personal exposure to soot and gases from vehicles is dramatically reduced

I agree, I think 50 years from now, we will look at these years of horrible, dirty Diesel cars as stupid as filling your walls with asbestos 50 years ago was or papering your wall with arsenic was 100 years ago!

magicbastarder

the government would fall if they tried to limit diesel vehicles like this.

Jamie2k9

Roadhawk wrote: »

Excuse the pun but i think this is gas...

"Dublin and other urban areas could join London, Paris, Stuttgart, Amsterdam, Athens and Mexico City in announcing bans or restrictions on the use of diesel-powered vehicles."

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/dublin-could-introduce-restrictions-on-diesel-vehicles-1.2995553

I'm not so sure if the diesel going population is that high in Dublin to warrant restrictions such as congestion charges and tax increase to diesel.

You can be guaranteed to see an increase to bus fairs, train fairs and delivery costs as they all use diesel vehicles for the most part.

It shouldn't have to get so bad before action is taken...

coylemj

Roadhawk wrote: »

I'm not so sure if the diesel going population is that high in Dublin to warrant restrictions such as congestion charges and tax increase to diesel.

Virtually every large vehicle (buses, trucks etc.) and the vast majority of cars above 1,600 c.c. purchased since July 2008 are burning diesel.

So the bulk of emissions coming from internal combustion engines in Dublin city is now from diesel engines. All we need now is a directly-elected mayor and he or she will introduce a congestion charge which means that the BMW 520Ds and Merc. E220s will be able to afford to drive around town but everyone else will be priced out of the city.

LeinsterDub

Buy diesel they told us. It will be good for the environment they told us.

Evd-Burner

coylemj wrote:

So the bulk of emissions coming from internal combustion engines in Dublin city is now from diesel engines. All we need now is a directly-elected mayor and he or she will introduce a congestion charge which means that the BMW 520Ds and Merc. E220s will be able to afford to drive around town but everyone else will be priced out of the city.

So glad I already went EV!

bk

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Won't happen as it won't be popular. The most that will happen will be that they will ban pre Euro 3 vehicles from the canal cordon, which will be both regressive as sit will hit the poorest the hardest and pointless as the numbers of these vehicles is very small.

It will however let the govt say they've done something.

This is what the government needs to do:

- Increase tax on Diesel, make it so that is costs the same as petrol *
- Increase motor tax rates on Diesels, to make them less attractive
- Generous government scrapage deals on Diesels, but only if you buy an EV or plug-in EV to replace it.
- Make motor tax zero for EV's (it is already very low, more about marketing).
- Maybe interest free government loans for EV's, on top of the already generous EV incentives
- The government needs to spend a lot more building out EV charging infrastructure.

* I think there is a psychological effect every time people pass a service station and see those big signs that show Diesel being cheaper then petrol. Diesel needs to be the same or even better more expensive then the petrol and then people might be more inclined to go with a petrol hybrid car.

BTW the money to help incentivise EV's can come from the increased tax on Diesel and increased motor tax on Diesels.

Of course allowances would need to be made for Diesel for commercial use (buses, trucks, etc.).

gctest50

bk wrote: »

........

Of course allowances would need to be made for Diesel for commercial use (buses, trucks, etc.).

You could do something interesting there with trucks, since digital tachographs are common - upload them to database and get money back on kilometers driven

I love Sean nos

Roadhawk wrote: »

an increase to bus fairs, train fairs

That would be brilliant. They'd have the latest buses and trains on view for enthusiasts.

SarahMollie

So interesting to see the tide turn on diesel. Back when I bought my current car (new) back at the start of 2015 I was getting non stop comments on how I was mad not to have bought a diesel. When I asked these people why I should have bought one, no one could actually give me a decent answer, just that "everyone knows diesels are better these days".

magicbastarder

my father was warned when buying his car (an octavia) back in 2012 not to go for a diesel; by a mechanic not in the car sales business. the sales guy was hell bent on selling him a diesel. he listened to the mechanic.

bmwguy

coylemj wrote: »

Virtually every large vehicle (buses, trucks etc.) and the vast majority of cars above 1,600 c.c. purchased since July 2008 are burning diesel.

So the bulk of emissions coming from internal combustion engines in Dublin city is now from diesel engines. All we need now is a directly-elected mayor and he or she will introduce a congestion charge which means that the BMW 520Ds and Merc. E220s will be able to afford to drive around town but everyone else will be priced out of the city.

Why would a BMW or Merc diesel be able to drive around the city and everyone else won't? Don't get that one.

gctest50

BMW have the new hybrid cars

bmwguy

gctest50 wrote: »

BMW have the new hybrid cars

But 520d and e220d are not hybrid they are diesel. And loads of manufacturers have hybrid and full electric now.

gctest50

And watch the hybrids get really good once the traffic restrictions start to kick in

n97 mini

In a recent review of the 530e in the Irish Times they claim that the govt essentially followed a policy proposal on diesel/co2 in 2008 that was put forward by BMW!

Chris_5339762

Not just the price of diesel at the pump, 4.9l/100km diesel vs 6.9l/100km petrol has something to do with it.

In the market for a new car and its definitely going to be a diesel.

oppenheimer1

bk wrote: »

This is what the government needs to do:

- Increase tax on Diesel, make it so that is costs the same as petrol *
- Increase motor tax rates on Diesels, to make them less attractive
- Generous government scrapage deals on Diesels, but only if you buy an EV or plug-in EV to replace it.
- Make motor tax zero for EV's (it is already very low, more about marketing).
- Maybe interest free government loans for EV's, on top of the already generous EV incentives
- The government needs to spend a lot more building out EV charging infrastructure.

* I think there is a psychological effect every time people pass a service station and see those big signs that show Diesel being cheaper then petrol. Diesel needs to be the same or even better more expensive then the petrol and then people might be more inclined to go with a petrol hybrid car.

BTW the money to help incentivise EV's can come from the increased tax on Diesel and increased motor tax on Diesels.

Of course allowances would need to be made for Diesel for commercial use (buses, trucks, etc.).

EV's have tons of subsidy as it stands - no tax other than vat on fuel, lowest level of motor tax and a VRT rebate and uptake is still tiny.

The problem is not with the incentives, it's with the product.

magicbastarder

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

6.9l/100km petrol

what sort of driving is giving you those figures?

coylemj

bmwguy wrote: »

Why would a BMW or Merc diesel be able to drive around the city and everyone else won't? Don't get that one.

You missed the words 'will be able to afford to' drive ..... in my post. The implication being that people who drive big luxury diesels won't care about congestion charges.

This type of transport means-tested apartheid already exists in our cities.... I often meet friends in town on Saturday afternoons and I get a bus home because parking in town is so expensive. When on the bus home, it p1sses me off to see one guy sitting in a taxi breezing along in the bus lane, just because he can afford it.

The logic which says that one class of privately owned car can use the bus lane purely because the passenger is paying the driver is lost on me.

Chris_5339762

magicbastarder wrote: »

what sort of driving is giving you those figures?

Suzuki Swift 2008 1.3l petrol at 120kmh on the motorway gives me 6.9l/100km. Measured using the cars average l/km display, nothing fancy.

A friends Diesel Skoda Octavia gives the 4.9l/100km at the same speed.

In fairness my Suzuki gives 5.9 at 100kmh so I generally drive it at around 105, 110 which gives my 6.3l/100km roughly, seems a decent middle ground.

To put it in perspective, me driving 100 vs 120 on a Dublin to Cork trip gets me my tolls for free. Roughly.

L1011

TCO of the Octavia including lifetime maintenance which is far higher on diesels has to be taken in to account also.

Can easily see a weighted co2+nox+particulate density figure coming in for motor tax and VRT, as well as a large hike in fuel duty

.G.

oppenheimer1 wrote:

EV's have tons of subsidy as it stands - no tax other than vat on fuel, lowest level of motor tax and a VRT rebate and uptake is still tiny.

The problem is not with the incentives, it's with the product.

Yup. Isn't an awful lot of our electricity produced from fossil fuels anyway? Imo EVs won't be mainstream until such time as the infrastructure to support them is widespread and that's going to take massive investment.

I'd be more interested to see how the new hydrogen fuel cell cars get on, I think they'll end up being more popular as the fuel can still be delivered via the existing petrol station network.

It still amazes me how many new cars I see in Dublin are diesel given that city driving never really gets the best out of a diesel anyway.

magicbastarder

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Suzuki Swift 2008 1.3l petrol at 120kmh on the motorway gives me 6.9l/100km. Measured using the cars average l/km display, nothing fancy.

i've a 1.4l petrol octavia, 2007 - i don't do much motorway driving (and when i do, i usually stick to under 100), but i've gotten it to under 5l/100km on a couple of rare occasions. open road driving usually gets me between 5.5 and 6.

i wonder if the gearing of the swift is different? it may be designed as more of a 'runaround' and geared for lower speeds where the octavia is designed more with higher speeds in mind? someone who actually knows what they're talking about may know if that's nonsense.

bk

n97 mini wrote: »

In a recent review of the 530e in the Irish Times they claim that the govt essentially followed a policy proposal on diesel/co2 in 2008 that was put forward by BMW!

It was more the german car manufactures in general, BMW, Mercedes and Volkswagen that pushed Diesel policy Europe wide.

They also heavily pushed for the standards and testing for diesel cars to be watered way down, which is how they were then able to cheat on emission standards for cars.

Which is why a 2017 Volkswagen Golf produces almost twice the amount of NOX and PM's as a 2017 Dublin Bus!!

bmwguy wrote: »

But 520d and e220d are not hybrid they are diesel. And loads of manufacturers have hybrid and full electric now.

Yes and you can buy a fully electric Nissan Leaf for second hand for about €6000!

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

EV's have tons of subsidy as it stands - no tax other than vat on fuel, lowest level of motor tax and a VRT rebate and uptake is still tiny.

The problem is not with the incentives, it's with the product.

I agree that the product has ways to go, though it really is advancing at an amazing pace.

I'll also point out that last year 40% of new car sales in Norway were pure EV's. So clearly they are already good enough for Norwegians and with the right government policy they can sell very well.

I don't see any reason why EV's are less then 1% in Ireland, but 40% in Norway, a much larger and colder country.

The reason EV's are so popular in Norway, is because the government put massive taxes on petrol and diesel cars and fuel there, while almost giving EV's away for free in terms of tax.

Here the government does give generous tax breaks (though they could be slightly better), which is the carrot. But they also need the stick, which is gradually increasing taxes on Diesel to make it less attractive. That is what we are missing here, plus a better EV charging infrastructure.

And all the above is about pure EV's. Petrol hybrids are already well developed and suitable for almost all needs. No reason why we shouldn't be promoting those over Diesel.

coylemj wrote: »

You missed the words 'will be able to afford to' drive ..... in my post. The implication being that people who drive big luxury diesels won't care about congestion charges.

Err.. This thread is talking about completely banning Diesel's from the city. The "rich" won't be able to bring their big Diesels into the city at all!

Anyway, the "rich" will end up driving Tesla Model S EV's, etc. now that Tesla have opened their showroom in Dublin and of course BMW, etc. are now rushing competing EV's to the market.

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Suzuki Swift 2008 1.3l petrol at 120kmh on the motorway gives me 6.9l/100km. Measured using the cars average l/km display, nothing fancy.

A friends Diesel Skoda Octavia gives the 4.9l/100km at the same speed.

In fairness my Suzuki gives 5.9 at 100kmh so I generally drive it at around 105, 110 which gives my 6.3l/100km roughly, seems a decent middle ground.

To put it in perspective, me driving 100 vs 120 on a Dublin to Cork trip gets me my tolls for free. Roughly.

To put this in perspective, you could make the same trip for free (excluding tolls) in an EV!

Driving Dublin to Cork and back will cost you about €40 to €50 in the above cars in fuel. The same in an EV using public charging is FREE and using at home charging about €8!!

EV's are pretty amazing.

BTW if you feel EV's aren't ready yet, then a hybrid petrol is a great option. They have better efficiency figures then what you quote for the Diesel above, while being better for the environment and having lower TCO and maintenance costs, specially if you don't do a lot of motorway driving. Diesels are terrible at city driving and can have serious problems if you don't drive them on a motorway regularly.

superg wrote: »

Yup. Isn't an awful lot of our electricity produced from fossil fuels anyway?

Sigh, really!

First of all, this thread is about local pollution from cars. Diesel pumping cancer causing NOX and PM's into peoples faces in our cities.

EV's 100% eliminate this problem as they don't have an engine and thus produce zero NOX and PM's.

In terms of global pollution, CO2, which causes global warming, then yes, EV's are only as good as where the energy generated comes from.

For instance in Norway, EV's produce almost zero CO2 because nearly all of Norways electricity comes from hydro power.

Ireland isn't quiet that good, but not bad either. In Ireland, an EV produces about 1/3rd the amount of CO2 per km driven as an equivalent petrol or diesel car.

In fact there isn't a country in the world where EV's don't produce less CO2 then a petrol or diesel, so it is really a silly point.

And of course it ignores that our power grids are getting cleaner all the time as coal plants are shut down and replaced by gas, wind and solar. Irelands eletric grid produces half the amount of CO2 as it did 20 years ago and it continues to improve.

If you buy an EV today, it will actually be even cleaner 20 years from now! While a 20 year old dirty Diesel will certainly be much worse as the filters break down, etc.

superg wrote: »

Imo EVs won't be mainstream until such time as the infrastructure to support them is widespread and that's going to take massive investment.

Not really, most charging/fuelling of EV's happens at home and it really isn't expensive to get installed (and the ESB are currently doing it for free!).

We do need more fast chargers dotted around the country. But again they aren't that particularly costly. A fraction of the cost of just one LUAS line would build you a fantastic, country wide fast charging network. And anyway, most of the money for this comes from grants from the EU.

BTW the need for fast chargers becomes increasingly unnecessary as battery capacity increases. The top Tesla models can already get you Dublin to Cork and back again without stopping to charge!

In the next few years we will be seeing 600km range EV's drop in price significantly, which will make charging outside of the home largely unnecessary.

superg wrote: »

I'd be more interested to see how the new hydrogen fuel cell cars get on, I think they'll end up being more popular as the fuel can still be delivered via the existing petrol station network.

Ughh, Hydrogen fuel cell cars are pretty terrible and are going nowhere fast.

Hyrodrogen fuels costs almost 3 times that of Diesel per km and the cars themselves cost more then €120,000!

Plus the cost of building Hydrogen pumping facilities is about 10 times the cost of a petrol station and can't be built near homes for safety!

EV's are way further along. There are people driving Nissan Leafs and Ioniq's around Dublin every day. I bet you pass them every day on your commute without even realising it!

Really you need to get away for the idea of petrol stations. Other then motorway service stations, they will largely become irrelevant. Charging at home is much easier then stopping at a petrol station. It really is no harder then plugging in your phone at night to charge.

Electricity infrastructure is widely available and adopting it for EV's is VASTLY easier and cheaper then trying to build hydrogen facilities.

n97 mini

bk wrote: »

It was more the german car manufactures in general, BMW, Mercedes and Volkswagen that pushed Diesel policy Europe wide.

Only repeating what the Irish Times said about BMW and the Irish govt.

bk

n97 mini wrote: »

Only repeating what the Irish Times said about BMW and the Irish govt.

Sure, I'm just pointing out that the story is much bigger then just the Irish government, it was pretty much EU wide, they and the other German manufacturers did the same throughout Europe, see Dieselgate.

magicbastarder

bk wrote: »

To put this in perspective, you could make the same trip for free (excluding tolls) in an EV!

Driving Dublin to Cork and back will cost you about €40 to €50 in the above cars in fuel. The same in an EV using public charging is FREE and using at home charging about €8!!

EV's are pretty amazing.

BTW if you feel EV's aren't ready yet, then a hybrid petrol is a great option. They have better efficiency figures then what you quote for the Diesel above, while being better for the environment and having lower TCO and maintenance costs, specially if you don't do a lot of motorway driving.

driving dublin to cork and back in a leaf?
driving from o'connell bridge to the english market (just as an example) is 258km. the current nissan leaf - with the larger battery - has a claimed range of 176km. you wouldn't even make a single leg without running out.
so you're looking at two full recharges to do that return trip.
however good a leaf is, it's not intended for that sort of trip.

and without resorting to figures, surely a hybrid is no better than a normal petrol car for motorway driving? the hybrid is better for urban driving, with time spent stationary, and lots of braking. on a motorway, there are far fewer of the inefficiencies which hybrids nibble away at.

bk

magicbastarder wrote: »

driving dublin to cork and back in a leaf?
driving from o'connell bridge to the english market (just as an example) is 258km. the current nissan leaf - with the larger battery - has a claimed range of 176km. you wouldn't even make a single leg without running out.
so you're looking at two full recharges to do that return trip.
however good a leaf is, it's not intended for that sort of trip.

Given that each of those charges is completely free, then the point stands!

Though obviously that is inconvenient.

But the Nissan Leaf is now old technology, it is 8 years old!

A Tesla can do it with no need to stop, though obviously they are too expensive for most people.

Cars that can do Dublin to Cork for reasonable money will be widespread in the next year or two.

magicbastarder wrote: »

and without resorting to figures, surely a hybrid is no better than a normal petrol car for motorway driving? the hybrid is better for urban driving, with time spent stationary, and lots of braking. on a motorway, there are far fewer of the inefficiencies which hybrids nibble away at.

What a hybrid loses on a motorway, it more then makes up for it when you are urban driving. You have to look at the overall picture.

Sure if all you do is motorway driving, then a Diesel is better. But beyond truckers and the odd travelling sales person, most people do a mix of both urban and motorway. Overall most ordinary commuters would be better off with a hybrid.

And of course, in reality there is an awful lot of stop and go driving on the M50 and the approach to it unfortunately. For most people living outside of Dublin and commuting in, a Hybrid in general is best.

magicbastarder

i will say that if or when i change my car, i will give serious consideration to a leaf or similar.

but the main issue is that cars with the significant ranges tend to be much more expensive these days.
would also like to see ongoing servicing costs too - i read a claim that the leaf has half the number of moving parts of a similar sized petrol nissan.

wordofwarning

magicbastarder wrote: »

my father was warned when buying his car (an octavia) back in 2012 not to go for a diesel; by a mechanic not in the car sales business. the sales guy was hell bent on selling him a diesel. he listened to the mechanic.

I had a family member going into buy a car from a dealership. The salesman said I am making a sale regardless, but for going around Dublin City, you do not need a diesel. Diesels are for motorway driving, not for the 2km roundtrip to the shops and church once a week. IMO there needs to an educational campaign on diesel. People don't know a diesel is not for nipping to the shops like a petrol/electric car.

Really the best deterrent for owning a diesel would be to equalise the tax on petrol and diesel. People generally assume diesel is cheaper to own, as it cheaper at the pump

bk

magicbastarder wrote: »

but the main issue is that cars with the significant ranges tend to be much more expensive these days.
would also like to see ongoing servicing costs too - i read a claim that the leaf has half the number of moving parts of a similar sized petrol nissan.

I agree, I'm much the same. Corkonian living in Dublin who would love an EV, but is waiting.

I think you need to think about it and be honest about how often you really make such long trips.

If most of your motoring is around Dublin, with just the odd trip down to Cork, etc. two or three times a year, then I think stopping for 30 minutes to charge during those trips is well worth it to save literally thousands every year on fuel costs.

If on the other hand, you are making these sort of trips almost every weekend, then obviously that might become annoying.

In reality the vast majority of people rarely make such long trips. The reality is that on average most people just drive 17km a day!

However to be honest, in the next year or two, these range issues are going away as affordable long range EVs are coming

As for servicing and maintenance costs, you are right, EV's are also WAY more reliable and WAY cheaper to service and maintain.

They have very few moving parts, little or no dirty oil in them, no explosions going off in them (basically how an engine works), etc.

The yearly service for a Nissan Leaf is literally just replace the wiper fluid and every few years rotate the tires! Brake pads rarely even have to be changed as they aren't used much due to regenerative breaking.

EV's are really great value for money in terms of fuel savings and increased reliability.

magicbastarder

wordofwarning wrote: »

People generally assume diesel is cheaper to own, as it cheaper at the pump

it does also have a higher energy content per unit volume, so driving a car 100km will use less diesel.

Roadhawk

bk wrote: »

It is pretty shocking, but a 2017 Volkswagen Golf produces about twice as much NOx and PM's as the Dublin Bus sitting next to it!!!!

Wow that's interesting. I can see that the new VW Passat emissions range from NOx 40 mg/km to 67 mg/km across the fueled range. I cant seem to find anything for the Vovlo B9TL. Its also interesting that a trial of hybrid buses were turned down even though Dublin Bus has to reduce their emissions by 33% before 2020. If their fleet were so easy on emissions surely they wouldn't need such a high percentage in reduction?

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/dublin-bus-refused-funding-for-trial-of-hybrid-buses-1.2510039

oppenheimer1

bk wrote: »

Given that each of those charges is completely free, then the point stands!

Though obviously that is inconvenient.

But the Nissan Leaf is now old technology, it is 8 years old!

A Tesla can do it with no need to stop, though obviously they are too expensive for most people.

Cars that can do Dublin to Cork for reasonable money will be widespread in the next year or two.



What a hybrid loses on a motorway, it more then makes up for it when you are urban driving. You have to look at the overall picture.

Sure if all you do is motorway driving, then a Diesel is better. But beyond truckers and the odd travelling sales person, most people do a mix of both urban and motorway. Overall most ordinary commuters would be better off with a hybrid.

And of course, in reality there is an awful lot of stop and go driving on the M50 and the approach to it unfortunately. For most people living outside of Dublin and commuting in, a Hybrid in general is best.

The problem is though as EV usage increases the cost will have to increase.
A Dublin-Cork journey costs about ?13 in fuel taxes alone. Mass adoption of EV's will necessitate the govt to make using one at least as expensive as Diesel, to control congestion at a minimum and to maintain tax revenue. The low cost nature of EV ownership is a temporary advantage, to make up for it's drawbacks, mainly limited range, especially at motorway speeds.

Owning an EV now for short predictable journeys makes sense now, bit they are nowhere near good enough for people who take 200km trips on a semi regular basis and that's why adoption has been so low. The problem is with the product, it's not good enough as the incentives at present are huge.

Fuel taxes should be equalised though, on petrol, diesel and EV on travel distance basis.

bk

Roadhawk wrote: »

Wow that's interesting. I can see that the new VW Passat emissions range from NOx 40 mg/km to 67 mg/km across the fueled range.

The problem is those emissions were found to be a lie in the real world. VW was found to be cheating. They rigged the test so that the emissions were reduced in the lab, but increased on the road.

The difference for Bus and Trucks, is that they have to be tested on the road in real world scenarios.

An independent body did real world, on the road tests of VW's and found that their emissions were WAY higher then stated in the specs and tested in the lab. Under further investigation, they found that VW had used special software to tune down the cars for lab tests and thus cheat on the tests.

The same body did real world tests on buses too and found that they were in fact within 1% of the spec.

Going back further, VW and the other German manufacturers had lobbied for real world testing to be removed for cars from the Euro 6 engine criteria. Now we know why, so that they could cheat on those tests.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jan/06/diesel-cars-are-10-times-more-toxic-than-trucks-and-buses-data-shows

It is all very shocking really.

Roadhawk wrote: »

I cant seem to find anything for the Vovlo B9TL. Its also interesting that a trial of hybrid buses were turned down even though Dublin Bus has to reduce their emissions by 33% before 2020. If their fleet were so easy on emissions surely they wouldn't need such a high percentage in reduction?

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/dublin-bus-refused-funding-for-trial-of-hybrid-buses-1.2510039

Even if your emissions are good, you still want to reduce them further. See Norway which has some of the lowest CO2 emissions in the world to start with and are still heavily and successfully pushing EV's

Dublin Bus still has a bunch of older Euro 4 engined buses which are comparatively very polluting (not taking into account the pollution per passenger km which is still relatively good).

The big priority for DB is to get rid of those old Euro 4 buses and replace them with much cleaner and more fuel efficient (saving money) Euro 6 engined buses. They will easily get a 33% or much greater reduction by just making that move.

Once the fleet is completely Euro 6, I would expect that they will start moving to Hybrids for even more gains.

As for trialling Hybrid buses, there is a lot more to that story. It was easy for DB to ask to trial hybrid buses, when DB weren't going to have to pay for them!

Remember, most DB buses are bought by the NTA, NOT DB. Hybrid buses are much more expensive to buy then a Euro 6 engined bus. So it is up to the NTA, not DB, what buses are bought.

The problem with Hybrids is that they are more expensive to buy, but are cheaper to run. The issue with DB/NTA, is that buses are bought by the NTA, but run by DB. So if the NTA started buying hybrids, they would have to pay more for each bus, but they wouldn't benefit from the fuel savings, DB would!

BTW DB did in fact previously trail hybrid buses, the trial was a failure, the buses weren't reliable at all. Reliability is the number one priority for public transport. In fairness Hybrid buses have come a long way since then and are much more reliable now and are widely used in London.

BBTW If DB are serious about hybrid buses, then there is nothing stopping them buying hybrid buses themselves for use on the 747 route, which is a commercial route and thus DB have the buy the buses themselves for this route, unlike the PSO. The fact that they haven't says a lot.

In reality DB floating the idea of having the NTA buy hybrid buses for them was simply a cheap shot at the NTA.

Having said all that, hybrid buses have come down in cost a lot and are now much more reliable and widespread. So once all the Euro 4 and 5 buses are gone from the DB fleet, I fully expect that they will start buying Hybrids then to repalce the oldest Euro 6 engined buses.

bk

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

The problem is though as EV usage increases the cost will have to increase.
A Dublin-Cork journey costs about ?13 in fuel taxes alone. Mass adoption of EV's will necessitate the govt to make using one at least as expensive as Diesel, to control congestion at a minimum and to maintain tax revenue. The low cost nature of EV ownership is a temporary advantage, to make up for it's drawbacks, mainly limited range, especially at motorway speeds.

Well you are right about taxes. The government is going to have to come up with a different way to tax EV's in the long term.

They are thinking about systems like GPS road taxing or just taxing based on your yearly mileage.

Or just more tolls and higher tolls.

Having said all that, even €13 tax + €8 for electricity, still adds up to half to one third of the cost of petrol/Diesel for the same trip.

EV's are going to be much cheaper in terms of both fuel and maintenance, even with increased taxes in future.

In the meantime, those of us who are smart, can take advantage of thousands of euros in savings for a couple of years until EV's go mainstream and government taxation.

Seriously, you should check out the EV forum. Folks who commute 100km+ into Dublin every day are literally saving in the region of €3k to €5k a year in fuel!

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Owning an EV now for short predictable journeys makes sense now, bit they are nowhere near good enough for people who take 200km trips on a semi regular basis and that's why adoption has been so low. The problem is with the product, it's not good enough as the incentives at present are huge.

Well the Hyundai Ioniq can already easily do 200km and is affordable. So we are already at the point.

It is 250km to 300km that is more of a stretch for affordable EV's for now. But that goes away in the next year or two.

But the question is honestly, how many people are doing 200km+ semi regularly?

Some people do, but most don't. EV's are great for most people.

Specially if you live in a two car family. At least one of the two cars can be an EV and do the bulk of the daily driving, the second car can be used for those odd long distance journey.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that full EV's aren't there yet for absolutely everyone. But I do think they are ready for most people. The problem is just that most people don't even think about them and don't think about what their honest usage of their car is. I think we would have a lot more EV's if people honestly stopped and actually thought about what their needs really are.

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Fuel taxes should be equalised though, on petrol, diesel and EV on travel distance basis.

Yes, petrol and diesel should be equalised today. EV's should continue to have advantage until they really take off.

Eventually EV's tax should be equalised, though note they would still be much cheaper then petrol/diesel, even paying the same tax.

coylemj

bk wrote: »

Err.. This thread is talking about completely banning Diesel's from the city. The "rich" won't be able to bring their big Diesels into the city at all!

Read the thread title - it's a discussion on possible 'restrictions' on driving diesel cars in Dublin.

And 'restrictions' could include congestion charges.

loyatemu

There are so many people driving diesel cars (particularly in rural Ireland) no Irish govt is going to ban or restrict diesels after what happened with the water charges - even raising the duty on it is risky. I expect they'll eventually revise the tax bands again to de-incentivise the purchase of new diesels but I doubt it'll be retrospective.

re: the Greens encouraging this 10 years ago; hindsight is a wonderful thing, we didn't know the car manufacturers were fiddling the figures and the health effects of diesel emissions have only been fully revealed in more recent studies.

Roadhawk

bk wrote: »

The problem is those emissions were found to be a lie in the real world. VW was found to be cheating. They rigged the test so that the emissions were reduced in the lab, but increased on the road.

The difference for Bus and Trucks, is that they have to be tested on the road in real world scenarios.

An independent body did real world, on the road tests of VW's and found that their emissions were WAY higher then stated in the specs and tested in the lab. Under further investigation, they found that VW had used special software to tune down the cars for lab tests and thus cheat on the tests.

The same body did real world tests on buses too and found that they were in fact within 1% of the spec.

Going back further, VW and the other German manufacturers had lobbied for real world testing to be removed for cars from the Euro 6 engine criteria. Now we know why, so that they could cheat on those tests.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jan/06/diesel-cars-are-10-times-more-toxic-than-trucks-and-buses-data-shows

It is all very shocking really.

I am aware of the VW emissions scandal. Heard it cost them billions to set right with customers who had purchased based on the emissions advertised. The Source i used for the stats was Next Geen Car:

http://www.nextgreencar.com/emissions/make-model/vw/passat%20saloon/

I also managed to find a stat on the Vovlo B9TL showing that the NOx was measured at 8.5830 g/km?

http://www.eic-uk.co.uk/Documents/Files/Working%20Groups/Air%20Quality%20Control/26%20November%202014/EIC-SWG12-M69%20261114.docx

bk wrote: »

Even if your emissions are good, you still want to reduce them further. See Norway which has some of the lowest CO2 emissions in the world to start with and are still heavily and successfully pushing EV's

Dublin Bus still has a bunch of older Euro 4 engined buses which are comparatively very polluting (not taking into account the pollution per passenger km which is still relatively good).

The big priority for DB is to get rid of those old Euro 4 buses and replace them with much cleaner and more fuel efficient (saving money) Euro 6 engined buses. They will easily get a 33% or much greater reduction by just making that move.

Once the fleet is completely Euro 6, I would expect that they will start moving to Hybrids for even more gains.

As for trialling Hybrid buses, there is a lot more to that story. It was easy for DB to ask to trial hybrid buses, when DB weren't going to have to pay for them!

Remember, most DB buses are bought by the NTA, NOT DB. Hybrid buses are much more expensive to buy then a Euro 6 engined bus. So it is up to the NTA, not DB, what buses are bought.

The problem with Hybrids is that they are more expensive to buy, but are cheaper to run. The issue with DB/NTA, is that buses are bought by the NTA, but run by DB. So if the NTA started buying hybrids, they would have to pay more for each bus, but they wouldn't benefit from the fuel savings, DB would!

BTW DB did in fact previously trail hybrid buses, the trial was a failure, the buses weren't reliable at all. Reliability is the number one priority for public transport. In fairness Hybrid buses have come a long way since then and are much more reliable now and are widely used in London.

BBTW If DB are serious about hybrid buses, then there is nothing stopping them buying hybrid buses themselves for use on the 747 route, which is a commercial route and thus DB have the buy the buses themselves for this route, unlike the PSO. The fact that they haven't says a lot.

In reality DB floating the idea of having the NTA buy hybrid buses for them was simply a cheap shot at the NTA.

Having said all that, hybrid buses have come down in cost a lot and are now much more reliable and widespread. So once all the Euro 4 and 5 buses are gone from the DB fleet, I fully expect that they will start buying Hybrids then to repalce the oldest Euro 6 engined buses.

I agree, why cant DB purchase the hybrid options themselves for such routes like the 747 airport route. Perhaps that could act as a trial and press the NTA for funds if successful.

I have been interested in EV's and hybrids over the last few years but for some reason i cant seem to make the change.

bk

And I should add, for those people who semi-regularly make 200km+ trips, hybrid and plug-in hybrids are a decent alternative to dirty Diesel.

The government should be prioritising, in order of priority:

1) Full EV's
2) Plug-in Hybrids
3) Hybrids

Beyond that, they should be discouraging Diesel and Petrol.

bk

coylemj wrote: »

Read the thread title - it's a discussion on possible 'restrictions' on driving diesel cars in Dublin.

And 'restrictions' could include congestion charges.

It could, but it won't

The NTA/DCC/Government decided not to go down the route of congestion charging a few years ago. The reason being, as you say, it benefits the rich and hurts the poor. Something that I agree isn't good for society and something which I think most Irish people would be very much against.

Instead they have generally taking the approach of making it for everyone to drive into the city and instead prioritise public transport. Obviously to mixed results, with the car lobby (car park owners, AA, etc.) fighting it.

So I can pretty much guarantee that any restrictions will be an outright ban on Diesels in the city across the board.

BTW high end cars are going electric much faster then normal cars. Tesla outsell both BMW and Merc in the US in the same categories where they sell and are quickly catching up with them in Europe too.

The Model 3 has more preorders then any product in history!

BMW/Merc/etc. are seriously worried and they are scrambling to build their own EV's too.

The point being, big Diesel BMW's are going away either way.

loyatemu wrote: »

There are so many people driving diesel cars (particularly in rural Ireland) no Irish govt is going to ban or restrict diesels after what happened with the water charges - even raising the duty on it is risky. I expect they'll eventually revise the tax bands again to de-incentivise the purchase of new diesels but I doubt it'll be retrospective.

Yes, you aren't wrong. This is why the government are happy to give EV's incentives, the carrot, but they are afraid to do anything about Diesels, the stick.

It is the stick, that has allowed EV's to be so successful in Norway. It is simply much cheaper to buy an EV in Norway then buying a Diesel!

Unfortunately Irish politicians are much more cowardly then that.

However even de-incentivising the purchase of new Diesels would be a good start.

Another good step, would be a Diesel scrappage scheme to get rid of the oldest ones, when you buy an EV or hybrid, with more money if you buy an EV.

Having said that, when it comes to health issues, it is generally easier for the government to force change, then with the water charges. Look at the success of the smoking ban or the ever increasing taxes on cigarettes. Diesel fumes have similar health issues. So a gradual increase in taxes on Diesel might not be as controversial as the water charges.

loyatemu wrote: »

re: the Greens encouraging this 10 years ago; hindsight is a wonderful thing, we didn't know the car manufacturers were fiddling the figures and the health effects of diesel emissions have only been fully revealed in more recent studies.

Err.. Except many of us knew that Diesels were terrible ten years ago! Diesels producing cancer causing NOX and PM's were well know for a long time before this, it is part of the reason why Diesel has long be called dirty. Many of us were calling the green party idiots even back then.

The mistake the greens made was actually believing the bull**** from the car manufactures that they had created "clean" diesel engines for small cars. We now clearly see that for the lie that it is.

Either way, we now know this problem is here and we need to start taking steps to fix it. We can't go on pumping cancer causing noxious fumes into our faces every day!

Roadhawk

bk wrote: »

And I should add, for those people who semi-regularly make 200km+ trips, hybrid and plug-in hybrids are a decent alternative to dirty Diesel.

The government should be prioritising, in order of priority:

1) Full EV's
2) Plug-in Hybrids
3) Hybrids

Beyond that, they should be discouraging Diesel and Petrol.

Well its great in theory to suggest that but that is not really feasible. Vehicles to most people are a high cost product and usually their second largest purchase after property. To have the government focus on everyone changing to the options you provide above could take 10's of years as some people dont replace their vehicles on a regular basis. So ultimately they will have to face heavy taxation among other restrictions until they swap. Maybe the government could incentivise people to purchase one of your options by providing grants?


Besides that, the EPA seem to show good air quality right across Ireland on their site. A little better in the West but good air nonetheless:

http://www.epa.ie/air/quality/data/

Their latest report also shows a masive reduction in NOx in Dublin since 2009:

http://www.epa.ie/pubs/reports/air/quality/epaairqualityreport2015.html


What i would be most concerned about is not the pollution factor but the cost factor. Dublin was recently marked as the second most expensive city for public transport and you can only assume that additional taxes to diesel will be passed on to the customer.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-39806865

Roadhawk

bk wrote: »

BTW high end cars are going electric much faster then normal cars. Tesla outsell both BMW and Merc in the US in the same categories where they sell and are quickly catching up with them in Europe too.

Just to add to that point Tesla are coming to Ireland this year...supposedly:

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/tesla-motors-to-open-new-irish-store-in-2017-1.2831894

n97 mini

Roadhawk wrote: »

Just to add to that point Tesla are coming to Ireland this year...supposedly:

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/tesla-motors-to-open-new-irish-store-in-2017-1.2831894

New store in Sandyford launched last week, and first Supercharger station opened at Ballacolla the same day.

bmwguy

coylemj wrote: »

You missed the words 'will be able to afford to' drive ..... in my post. The implication being that people who drive big luxury diesels won't care about congestion charges.

Oh. Well I suggest that those who drive 5 series and e class diesels drive them because they are very cost conscious. They love cheap tax. Otherwise they would be driving petrol.

bk

Roadhawk wrote: »

Well its great in theory to suggest that but that is not really feasible. Vehicles to most people are a high cost product and usually their second largest purchase after property. To have the government focus on everyone changing to the options you provide above could take 10's of years as some people dont replace their vehicles on a regular basis. So ultimately they will have to face heavy taxation among other restrictions until they swap. Maybe the government could incentivise people to purchase one of your options by providing grants?

Of course I'm not suggesting that this be an over night change! Of course I'm suggesting that the government take gradual changes that de-centivise Diesel and incentivise EV's and hybrid over a number of years.

Again, I'll point out that last year, 40% of all new car sales in Norway were full EVs, while in Ireland last year just 1% of new car sales were EV's, why?

There is no reason why the government can't make changes today that would immediately make new Diesel sales less attractive and EV's and hybrid more attractive.

There is no reason why new car sales shouldn't be something like 40% full EV, 60% hybrids and 10 to 20% Diesel and Petrol like it is in Norway.

Of course as you say, it will take years for old Diesels to be worked out of the system. Though again that could be speed up with a Diesel to EV government scrappage scheme.

I don't think anyone would say that existing Diesel owners should be penalised, beyond equalising Diesel and Petrol prices for the psychological effect. However everything possible should be done to discourage new Diesel sales and shift people to Hybrid petrol and EV's instead today. Start making the transition now.

Roadhawk wrote: »

Besides that, the EPA seem to show good air quality right across Ireland on their site. A little better in the West but good air nonetheless:

http://www.epa.ie/air/quality/data/

Their latest report also shows a masive reduction in NOx in Dublin since 2009:

http://www.epa.ie/pubs/reports/air/quality/epaairqualityreport2015.html

Yes, we are very lucky. These results are due purely to our geography and weather. Strong, Atlantic, westerly winds mean that NOX and PM's are quickly dispersed and sent off towards the UK.

However you need to take these results with a pinch of salt. In the UK they have recently started doing more detailed localised testing and what they have found was that NOX and PM levels were vastly higher near road junctions and schools (during pick up/drop off times) then was reported by the more generic testing sites, which tended to be at more isolated locations like airports, etc and far from roads!

I haven't seen anybody do such testing here, but I wouldn't be surprised if you saw similar localised results.

Also interestingly the people who actually get the highest concentrations of NOX and PM's are those driving the Diesel cars themselves!

People think of Diesel pollution as being that thick black smoke from old Diesels. It isn't, NOX and PM's are invisible and odourless. Inside Diesel cars is actually the place with the highest levels of PM's and NOX due to leakage into the car cabin from the engine and exhaust, etc.

Westerly winds won't help to disperse these. So in fact, it is the drivers of Diesel cars who are actually doing the most damage to their own health and the health of their families!

Roadhawk wrote: »

What i would be most concerned about is not the pollution factor but the cost factor. Dublin was recently marked as the second most expensive city for public transport and you can only assume that additional taxes to diesel will be passed on to the customer.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-39806865

Buses and coaches use to get a tax deduction for fuel. They could re-introduce that or a similar scheme to negate the impact on public transport.