Diesel vehicle restrictions in Dublin?

Roadhawk

Excuse the pun but i think this is gas...

"Dublin and other urban areas could join London, Paris, Stuttgart, Amsterdam, Athens and Mexico City in announcing bans or restrictions on the use of diesel-powered vehicles."

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/dublin-could-introduce-restrictions-on-diesel-vehicles-1.2995553

I'm not so sure if the diesel going population is that high in Dublin to warrant restrictions such as congestion charges and tax increase to diesel.

You can be guaranteed to see an increase to bus fairs, train fairs and delivery costs as they all use diesel vehicles for the most part.

gctest50

Mr Naughten has already told an environmental conference that air pollution in the Republic was costing the State €3,800 per minute in health costs

That part will get attention



Doctors Against Diesel are calling for the use of diesel fuels to be banned in our urban areas and progressively phased out elsewhere. We want to see a future in which personal exposure to soot and gases from vehicles is dramatically reduced

bk

Roadhawk wrote: »

I'm not so sure if the diesel going population is that high in Dublin to warrant restrictions such as congestion charges and tax increase to diesel.

Huh! The vast majority of cars sold in Ireland in the past 10 years are Diesels.

The majority of Taxi's running around Dublin and the majority of cars entering Dublin are Diesel.

This is all due to the stupidity of the green party incentivising Diesel over Petrol 10 years ago!

So, yes, moves should be made to promote EV's and hybrid electric petrol cars and to move away from Diesels.

However I think buses and trucks should be left for the moment (but also tackled in time).

Buses and trucks already have to adhere to much stricter pollution standards then Diesel cars do.

It is pretty shocking, but a 2017 Volkswagen Golf produces about twice as much NOx and PM's as the Dublin Bus sitting next to it!!!!

Fill both with passengers and the NOX/PM per passenger KM actually makes buses one the cleanest forms of transport (second only to electric trains).

Having said that, it would be nice to see the NTA/DB start buying hybrid buses, they have already become common in London and the price premium has dropped substantially. In time we will hopefully see full EV buses.

But in the meantime, Diesel cars are shockingly actually the much bigger problem!

oppenheimer1

Won't happen as it won't be popular. The most that will happen will be that they will ban pre Euro 3 vehicles from the canal cordon, which will be both regressive as sit will hit the poorest the hardest and pointless as the numbers of these vehicles is very small.

It will however let the govt say they've done something.

bk

gctest50 wrote: »

That part will get attention

Doctors Against Diesel are calling for the use of diesel fuels to be banned in our urban areas and progressively phased out elsewhere. We want to see a future in which personal exposure to soot and gases from vehicles is dramatically reduced

I agree, I think 50 years from now, we will look at these years of horrible, dirty Diesel cars as stupid as filling your walls with asbestos 50 years ago was or papering your wall with arsenic was 100 years ago!

magicbastarder

the government would fall if they tried to limit diesel vehicles like this.

Jamie2k9

Roadhawk wrote: »

Excuse the pun but i think this is gas...

"Dublin and other urban areas could join London, Paris, Stuttgart, Amsterdam, Athens and Mexico City in announcing bans or restrictions on the use of diesel-powered vehicles."

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/dublin-could-introduce-restrictions-on-diesel-vehicles-1.2995553

I'm not so sure if the diesel going population is that high in Dublin to warrant restrictions such as congestion charges and tax increase to diesel.

You can be guaranteed to see an increase to bus fairs, train fairs and delivery costs as they all use diesel vehicles for the most part.

It shouldn't have to get so bad before action is taken...

coylemj

Roadhawk wrote: »

I'm not so sure if the diesel going population is that high in Dublin to warrant restrictions such as congestion charges and tax increase to diesel.

Virtually every large vehicle (buses, trucks etc.) and the vast majority of cars above 1,600 c.c. purchased since July 2008 are burning diesel.

So the bulk of emissions coming from internal combustion engines in Dublin city is now from diesel engines. All we need now is a directly-elected mayor and he or she will introduce a congestion charge which means that the BMW 520Ds and Merc. E220s will be able to afford to drive around town but everyone else will be priced out of the city.

LeinsterDub

Buy diesel they told us. It will be good for the environment they told us.

Evd-Burner

coylemj wrote:

So the bulk of emissions coming from internal combustion engines in Dublin city is now from diesel engines. All we need now is a directly-elected mayor and he or she will introduce a congestion charge which means that the BMW 520Ds and Merc. E220s will be able to afford to drive around town but everyone else will be priced out of the city.

So glad I already went EV!

bk

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Won't happen as it won't be popular. The most that will happen will be that they will ban pre Euro 3 vehicles from the canal cordon, which will be both regressive as sit will hit the poorest the hardest and pointless as the numbers of these vehicles is very small.

It will however let the govt say they've done something.

This is what the government needs to do:

- Increase tax on Diesel, make it so that is costs the same as petrol *
- Increase motor tax rates on Diesels, to make them less attractive
- Generous government scrapage deals on Diesels, but only if you buy an EV or plug-in EV to replace it.
- Make motor tax zero for EV's (it is already very low, more about marketing).
- Maybe interest free government loans for EV's, on top of the already generous EV incentives
- The government needs to spend a lot more building out EV charging infrastructure.

* I think there is a psychological effect every time people pass a service station and see those big signs that show Diesel being cheaper then petrol. Diesel needs to be the same or even better more expensive then the petrol and then people might be more inclined to go with a petrol hybrid car.

BTW the money to help incentivise EV's can come from the increased tax on Diesel and increased motor tax on Diesels.

Of course allowances would need to be made for Diesel for commercial use (buses, trucks, etc.).

gctest50

bk wrote: »

........

Of course allowances would need to be made for Diesel for commercial use (buses, trucks, etc.).

You could do something interesting there with trucks, since digital tachographs are common - upload them to database and get money back on kilometers driven

I love Sean nos

Roadhawk wrote: »

an increase to bus fairs, train fairs

That would be brilliant. They'd have the latest buses and trains on view for enthusiasts.

SarahMollie

So interesting to see the tide turn on diesel. Back when I bought my current car (new) back at the start of 2015 I was getting non stop comments on how I was mad not to have bought a diesel. When I asked these people why I should have bought one, no one could actually give me a decent answer, just that "everyone knows diesels are better these days".

magicbastarder

my father was warned when buying his car (an octavia) back in 2012 not to go for a diesel; by a mechanic not in the car sales business. the sales guy was hell bent on selling him a diesel. he listened to the mechanic.

bmwguy

coylemj wrote: »

Virtually every large vehicle (buses, trucks etc.) and the vast majority of cars above 1,600 c.c. purchased since July 2008 are burning diesel.

So the bulk of emissions coming from internal combustion engines in Dublin city is now from diesel engines. All we need now is a directly-elected mayor and he or she will introduce a congestion charge which means that the BMW 520Ds and Merc. E220s will be able to afford to drive around town but everyone else will be priced out of the city.

Why would a BMW or Merc diesel be able to drive around the city and everyone else won't? Don't get that one.

gctest50

BMW have the new hybrid cars

bmwguy

gctest50 wrote: »

BMW have the new hybrid cars

But 520d and e220d are not hybrid they are diesel. And loads of manufacturers have hybrid and full electric now.

gctest50

And watch the hybrids get really good once the traffic restrictions start to kick in

n97 mini

In a recent review of the 530e in the Irish Times they claim that the govt essentially followed a policy proposal on diesel/co2 in 2008 that was put forward by BMW!

Chris_5339762

Not just the price of diesel at the pump, 4.9l/100km diesel vs 6.9l/100km petrol has something to do with it.

In the market for a new car and its definitely going to be a diesel.

oppenheimer1

bk wrote: »

This is what the government needs to do:

- Increase tax on Diesel, make it so that is costs the same as petrol *
- Increase motor tax rates on Diesels, to make them less attractive
- Generous government scrapage deals on Diesels, but only if you buy an EV or plug-in EV to replace it.
- Make motor tax zero for EV's (it is already very low, more about marketing).
- Maybe interest free government loans for EV's, on top of the already generous EV incentives
- The government needs to spend a lot more building out EV charging infrastructure.

* I think there is a psychological effect every time people pass a service station and see those big signs that show Diesel being cheaper then petrol. Diesel needs to be the same or even better more expensive then the petrol and then people might be more inclined to go with a petrol hybrid car.

BTW the money to help incentivise EV's can come from the increased tax on Diesel and increased motor tax on Diesels.

Of course allowances would need to be made for Diesel for commercial use (buses, trucks, etc.).

EV's have tons of subsidy as it stands - no tax other than vat on fuel, lowest level of motor tax and a VRT rebate and uptake is still tiny.

The problem is not with the incentives, it's with the product.

magicbastarder

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

6.9l/100km petrol

what sort of driving is giving you those figures?

coylemj

bmwguy wrote: »

Why would a BMW or Merc diesel be able to drive around the city and everyone else won't? Don't get that one.

You missed the words 'will be able to afford to' drive ..... in my post. The implication being that people who drive big luxury diesels won't care about congestion charges.

This type of transport means-tested apartheid already exists in our cities.... I often meet friends in town on Saturday afternoons and I get a bus home because parking in town is so expensive. When on the bus home, it p1sses me off to see one guy sitting in a taxi breezing along in the bus lane, just because he can afford it.

The logic which says that one class of privately owned car can use the bus lane purely because the passenger is paying the driver is lost on me.

Chris_5339762

magicbastarder wrote: »

what sort of driving is giving you those figures?

Suzuki Swift 2008 1.3l petrol at 120kmh on the motorway gives me 6.9l/100km. Measured using the cars average l/km display, nothing fancy.

A friends Diesel Skoda Octavia gives the 4.9l/100km at the same speed.

In fairness my Suzuki gives 5.9 at 100kmh so I generally drive it at around 105, 110 which gives my 6.3l/100km roughly, seems a decent middle ground.

To put it in perspective, me driving 100 vs 120 on a Dublin to Cork trip gets me my tolls for free. Roughly.

L1011

TCO of the Octavia including lifetime maintenance which is far higher on diesels has to be taken in to account also.

Can easily see a weighted co2+nox+particulate density figure coming in for motor tax and VRT, as well as a large hike in fuel duty

.G.

oppenheimer1 wrote:

EV's have tons of subsidy as it stands - no tax other than vat on fuel, lowest level of motor tax and a VRT rebate and uptake is still tiny.

The problem is not with the incentives, it's with the product.

Yup. Isn't an awful lot of our electricity produced from fossil fuels anyway? Imo EVs won't be mainstream until such time as the infrastructure to support them is widespread and that's going to take massive investment.

I'd be more interested to see how the new hydrogen fuel cell cars get on, I think they'll end up being more popular as the fuel can still be delivered via the existing petrol station network.

It still amazes me how many new cars I see in Dublin are diesel given that city driving never really gets the best out of a diesel anyway.

magicbastarder

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Suzuki Swift 2008 1.3l petrol at 120kmh on the motorway gives me 6.9l/100km. Measured using the cars average l/km display, nothing fancy.

i've a 1.4l petrol octavia, 2007 - i don't do much motorway driving (and when i do, i usually stick to under 100), but i've gotten it to under 5l/100km on a couple of rare occasions. open road driving usually gets me between 5.5 and 6.

i wonder if the gearing of the swift is different? it may be designed as more of a 'runaround' and geared for lower speeds where the octavia is designed more with higher speeds in mind? someone who actually knows what they're talking about may know if that's nonsense.

bk

n97 mini wrote: »

In a recent review of the 530e in the Irish Times they claim that the govt essentially followed a policy proposal on diesel/co2 in 2008 that was put forward by BMW!

It was more the german car manufactures in general, BMW, Mercedes and Volkswagen that pushed Diesel policy Europe wide.

They also heavily pushed for the standards and testing for diesel cars to be watered way down, which is how they were then able to cheat on emission standards for cars.

Which is why a 2017 Volkswagen Golf produces almost twice the amount of NOX and PM's as a 2017 Dublin Bus!!

bmwguy wrote: »

But 520d and e220d are not hybrid they are diesel. And loads of manufacturers have hybrid and full electric now.

Yes and you can buy a fully electric Nissan Leaf for second hand for about €6000!

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

EV's have tons of subsidy as it stands - no tax other than vat on fuel, lowest level of motor tax and a VRT rebate and uptake is still tiny.

The problem is not with the incentives, it's with the product.

I agree that the product has ways to go, though it really is advancing at an amazing pace.

I'll also point out that last year 40% of new car sales in Norway were pure EV's. So clearly they are already good enough for Norwegians and with the right government policy they can sell very well.

I don't see any reason why EV's are less then 1% in Ireland, but 40% in Norway, a much larger and colder country.

The reason EV's are so popular in Norway, is because the government put massive taxes on petrol and diesel cars and fuel there, while almost giving EV's away for free in terms of tax.

Here the government does give generous tax breaks (though they could be slightly better), which is the carrot. But they also need the stick, which is gradually increasing taxes on Diesel to make it less attractive. That is what we are missing here, plus a better EV charging infrastructure.

And all the above is about pure EV's. Petrol hybrids are already well developed and suitable for almost all needs. No reason why we shouldn't be promoting those over Diesel.

coylemj wrote: »

You missed the words 'will be able to afford to' drive ..... in my post. The implication being that people who drive big luxury diesels won't care about congestion charges.

Err.. This thread is talking about completely banning Diesel's from the city. The "rich" won't be able to bring their big Diesels into the city at all!

Anyway, the "rich" will end up driving Tesla Model S EV's, etc. now that Tesla have opened their showroom in Dublin and of course BMW, etc. are now rushing competing EV's to the market.

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Suzuki Swift 2008 1.3l petrol at 120kmh on the motorway gives me 6.9l/100km. Measured using the cars average l/km display, nothing fancy.

A friends Diesel Skoda Octavia gives the 4.9l/100km at the same speed.

In fairness my Suzuki gives 5.9 at 100kmh so I generally drive it at around 105, 110 which gives my 6.3l/100km roughly, seems a decent middle ground.

To put it in perspective, me driving 100 vs 120 on a Dublin to Cork trip gets me my tolls for free. Roughly.

To put this in perspective, you could make the same trip for free (excluding tolls) in an EV!

Driving Dublin to Cork and back will cost you about €40 to €50 in the above cars in fuel. The same in an EV using public charging is FREE and using at home charging about €8!!

EV's are pretty amazing.

BTW if you feel EV's aren't ready yet, then a hybrid petrol is a great option. They have better efficiency figures then what you quote for the Diesel above, while being better for the environment and having lower TCO and maintenance costs, specially if you don't do a lot of motorway driving. Diesels are terrible at city driving and can have serious problems if you don't drive them on a motorway regularly.

superg wrote: »

Yup. Isn't an awful lot of our electricity produced from fossil fuels anyway?

Sigh, really!

First of all, this thread is about local pollution from cars. Diesel pumping cancer causing NOX and PM's into peoples faces in our cities.

EV's 100% eliminate this problem as they don't have an engine and thus produce zero NOX and PM's.

In terms of global pollution, CO2, which causes global warming, then yes, EV's are only as good as where the energy generated comes from.

For instance in Norway, EV's produce almost zero CO2 because nearly all of Norways electricity comes from hydro power.

Ireland isn't quiet that good, but not bad either. In Ireland, an EV produces about 1/3rd the amount of CO2 per km driven as an equivalent petrol or diesel car.

In fact there isn't a country in the world where EV's don't produce less CO2 then a petrol or diesel, so it is really a silly point.

And of course it ignores that our power grids are getting cleaner all the time as coal plants are shut down and replaced by gas, wind and solar. Irelands eletric grid produces half the amount of CO2 as it did 20 years ago and it continues to improve.

If you buy an EV today, it will actually be even cleaner 20 years from now! While a 20 year old dirty Diesel will certainly be much worse as the filters break down, etc.

superg wrote: »

Imo EVs won't be mainstream until such time as the infrastructure to support them is widespread and that's going to take massive investment.

Not really, most charging/fuelling of EV's happens at home and it really isn't expensive to get installed (and the ESB are currently doing it for free!).

We do need more fast chargers dotted around the country. But again they aren't that particularly costly. A fraction of the cost of just one LUAS line would build you a fantastic, country wide fast charging network. And anyway, most of the money for this comes from grants from the EU.

BTW the need for fast chargers becomes increasingly unnecessary as battery capacity increases. The top Tesla models can already get you Dublin to Cork and back again without stopping to charge!

In the next few years we will be seeing 600km range EV's drop in price significantly, which will make charging outside of the home largely unnecessary.

superg wrote: »

I'd be more interested to see how the new hydrogen fuel cell cars get on, I think they'll end up being more popular as the fuel can still be delivered via the existing petrol station network.

Ughh, Hydrogen fuel cell cars are pretty terrible and are going nowhere fast.

Hyrodrogen fuels costs almost 3 times that of Diesel per km and the cars themselves cost more then €120,000!

Plus the cost of building Hydrogen pumping facilities is about 10 times the cost of a petrol station and can't be built near homes for safety!

EV's are way further along. There are people driving Nissan Leafs and Ioniq's around Dublin every day. I bet you pass them every day on your commute without even realising it!

Really you need to get away for the idea of petrol stations. Other then motorway service stations, they will largely become irrelevant. Charging at home is much easier then stopping at a petrol station. It really is no harder then plugging in your phone at night to charge.

Electricity infrastructure is widely available and adopting it for EV's is VASTLY easier and cheaper then trying to build hydrogen facilities.

n97 mini

bk wrote: »

It was more the german car manufactures in general, BMW, Mercedes and Volkswagen that pushed Diesel policy Europe wide.

Only repeating what the Irish Times said about BMW and the Irish govt.

bk

n97 mini wrote: »

Only repeating what the Irish Times said about BMW and the Irish govt.

Sure, I'm just pointing out that the story is much bigger then just the Irish government, it was pretty much EU wide, they and the other German manufacturers did the same throughout Europe, see Dieselgate.