Should farmers start planning for Brexit?

divillybit

An article by Dan O Brien in the Business section of yesterdays Sunday Independant (30th April 2017) makes for very interesting and worrying reading for beef farmers. The article esentially details that beef accounts for almost 25% of the value of Irish companies exports to the UK making it the single most valuable product sold abroad by the indigenous sector. In O' Briens words it 'underscores just how massive a threat Brexit is'.

While I am actively involved in the family farm (suckler and sheep farming) but thankfully I work full time in the private sector.

But it got me thinking that should farmers start implementing a Brexit strategy and cut back on stock in the event of a hard Brexit and sour relations between the UK and the EU the 'implicatations for everyone involved in that (meat) industry look dire'.
Could livestock prices crash?

I'd be interested to hear farmers opinions.

Jack the Stripper

Dan o Brien is only talking bar stool gibberish. Even the experts don't know if Brexit will happen. We can all be like Dan o Brien talking trash.

_Brian

Brexit will be like allot of negotiations and high level agreements.

Everyone will take a hard line, there will be lots of posturing and beating of chests so the home side supporters see their man (or woman) doing the best for their side.

However, I find in the last hours before a real hard deadline both sides become very very keen on a deal that they can bring home. Consessions are made by all sides and a "fudge" is worked out that allows both teams go home to the masses holding their side of the deal up as a real hard won victory and the best deal for them, much better than the other side achieved.

Both sides have major interests at play in Brexit, both will loose out if a poor deal is reached, it will be a matter of how each side can sell the consessions to the home supporters, the more confident they are of selling the deal the more consessions they will be willing to make.

A fudge will be reached. But not until both sides get a chance to make themselves look like they are in control of the negotiations.

divillybit

Brexit very much looks like it will happen given that Theresa May has called for a snap election which they are predicted to get an overwhelming majority over Labour which arent exactly promising a referendum on not leaving the EU should they get a majority.

Dan O Brien is a well regarded economist and I'd very much doubt he talks rubbish. People didnt pass much heed on Morgan Kelly when he predicted the property crash but he was spot on.

I think we would all love to see a best case scenerio where a good deal is reached. But is hoping for the best but planning for the worst not a sensible strategy? I would be fearful of having alot of stock on the farm which may well be devalued should our main export market impose tarifs on EU and by extension Irish meat products.

Who2

You could sell all the stock, buy bank shares or even just hold it in euro and it could be devalued just as much. There's a lot of people who spend too much time worrying about things way outside of their control, I say no one knows what's going to happen and theirs no point panicking.

tomwaterford

Who2 wrote: »

You could sell all the stock, buy bank shares or even just hold it in euro and it could be devalued just as much. There's a lot of people who spend too much time worrying about things way outside of their control, I say no one knows what's going to happen and theirs no point panicking.

This is real bury your head in the sand stuff?


If brexit leads to trading on an open international market,surly argentine and Brazilian beef has the potential to decimate irish beef on competitiveness

,when it deosnt have a quota to contend with?

Count Mondego

There isn't a much beef farmers can do about it sadly. It's up to the processing sector to find new markets if we lose the UK, which is very possible. Mushroom industry already gone so Dan's not dreaming this up.

K.G.

I love to start planning just dont know what to plan for.not sure theres alot of hedging tools available to me either.at the minute my thoughts are leaning towards planning for a couple of bad years financially

I am pessimistic about a deal being made - but I wouldn't be making any drastic changes before the outcome is clear.

Even if the UK crashes out without a deal, supply chains will take a while to adjust and the UK might not put restrictions on imports - they will still want supplies.

The collapse of sterling is probably a bigger immediate problem.

ganmo

tomwaterford wrote: »

This is real bury your head in the sand stuff?


If brexit leads to trading on an open international market,surly argentine and Brazilian beef has the potential to decimate irish beef on competitiveness

,when it deosnt have a quota to contend with?

the problem is we don't know what to prepare for.
what type of beef does britan take - all types ! so whether you're finishing bullocks or bulls theres going to be issues.

_Brian

They of course may want to keep our beef supply and choose not to put a tariff on Irish beef because it suits them, or allow a volume tariff free.

In theory they can set tariffs (or not) on individual products from specific countries.

Lots of ways to fudge this to get it across the line and it doesn't really all have to be bad.
The likes of Goodman will be banging on the door to strike a supply contract and the likes of May will look at this as a way to retain the status quo for the great British public.

Personally I think the few years after Brexit will see little actual change as they will have the financial reserves to prop up the new system and will want it to look a success right into the next election in five years time.
Looking beyond say 2023 if they haven't managed to stabilise things it's them problems may start to shine when they need to pull supports from farms etc which they will pay in the short term to keep people happy.

Quantitative easing will ease problems with drops in sterling value, write a 50 year bond and borrow from the central bank, just like the US does, throw this easy money round the British isles to keep things running, it will work on the short term, till the next election anyway.

Mooooo

_Brian wrote: »

They of course may want to keep our beef supply and choose not to put a tariff on Irish beef because it suits them, or allow a volume tariff free.

In theory they can set tariffs (or not) on individual products from specific countries.

Lots of ways to fudge this to get it across the line and it doesn't really all have to be bad.
The likes of Goodman will be banging on the door to strike a supply contract and the likes of May will look at this as a way to retain the status quo for the great British public.

Personally I think the few years after Brexit will see little actual change as they will have the financial reserves to prop up the new system and will want it to look a success right into the next election in five years time.
Looking beyond say 2023 if they haven't managed to stabilise things it's them problems may start to shine when they need to pull supports from farms etc which they will pay in the short term to keep people happy.

Quantitative easing will ease problems with drops in sterling value, write a 50 year bond and borrow from the central bank, just like the US does, throw this easy money round the British isles to keep things running, it will work on the short term, till the next election anyway.

The problem we have to overcome is when it comes to trade we are not Ireland, we are the EU so technically any deal for us would have to apply to every other eu member

ganmo

and the problem the uk have to overcome is that they import £6billion worth of meat of which about 1 billion is irish beef

thats a alot of food!

divillybit

I think the best hedge beef farmers can take against initially against a hard brexit is to cut back on the numbers of stock they carry by 15% or so. I know until there is more certainty post brexit I'd rather keep have less stock around the place. It may be up to meat processors to find new markets for our beef should the UK market become restricted, but it'll be the farmer who will be left holding on to cattle if the demand from processors decreases. Farmers could get caught out in such an instance. Farming is a low margin business and this may be a looming crisis that could cripple a lot of livestock finishers financially.

As another poster said, there won't be a special deal with Ireland on this issue as we are an EU country and can't be treated more favourably than any other EU member.

Who2

tomwaterford wrote: »

This is real bury your head in the sand stuff?


If brexit leads to trading on an open international market,surly argentine and Brazilian beef has the potential to decimate irish beef on competitiveness

,when it deosnt have a quota to contend with?

What would you suggest, it's not burying the head in the sand, it's accepting that even the genius's in charge have no real knowledge of what's about to happen, the impact or even the slightest clue of who or what is going to be trading. It's all doom and gloom, I'll wait till there's something definitive before I gamble on an unknown outcome.

divillybit

I think a wait and see approach isint very proactive. Enterprise Ireland have been telling companies exporting into the UK to prepare for a worst case sceneario so the same should apply to the primary producer (the farmer) of Irelands single most valuable product (meat/offal/blood) sold abroad by the indigenous sector.

I'm in my early 30's and thinking of starting my own small suckler herd but I'm going holding off for another 2 years. So I'm just a keen observer and with no money tied up in stock but I do think its something to be concious of for farmers who would have tens of thousands of euros tied up in livestock.

BlinkingLights

What worries me about irish agriculture is that there's a focus on bulk production and not nearly enough attention being paid to see developing brands.

If there's a fluctuation in the regulatory environment, access to markets etc etc generic beef, milk etc had to compete basically as a commodity.

Ireland has done some good work on national branding for beef etc but we need to be pushing this much harder.

We've every potential to be a green, high end agricultural producer with highly developed brands but all I ever hear is discussion about quotas and worrying about Brazil.

We should be producing a lot less ana charging a lot more for it as an ultra high end premium product that isn't impacted by these kinds of fluctuations in markets.

Short term, we can't really plan for Brexit because nobody knows what Brexit will look like. That's one of the huge fundamental problems with what the UK is doing both for irish agriculture it also for British companies. There's no roadmap, no plan, nothing. It's still just all pie in the sky ranting about "Brexit means Brexit".

What Ireland need to do is ensure that in future we don't have all our eggs in one basket.
There's absolutely nothing we can do in the short term though other than try to react when it does happen and try and protect irish interests now.

What we need to do now is shape Brexit before it happens and as it's happening. We have lots of soft power to lobby and we have hard power in the form of vetos and we should be prepared to throw the toys out of the pram if we have to.

The worst thing we as a country could do is sit here passively allowing Brexit to happen without attempting to mould or to our interests.

davidk1394

Bord Bia and Ornua are doing good work abroad promoting Irish food and beverages. On the beef side it must be sold as a premium product because we wont be able to match the likes of Brazil, Argentina or the U.S in terms of output or cost of production. At the moment everything is speculation and the price is fluctuating due to all of this speculation. Nobody knows what will happen with BREXIT, and the negotiations will take at least 10 years. Irish meat processors are buying factories in the U.K so they can fill the market with British beef.

Its hard to know what any farmer in Ireland should do because even if you think your doing the right thing it could be the wrong thing.

divillybit

I think there is alot suckler farmers collectively can do to protect themselves, and thats just to cut back on stock by 15% or so. That may just mean keeping 5 or 6 fewer cows. It could cause supplies to tighten alot and would help support the price of cattle in the event of a period of uncertainty when the UK do leave the EU. In time a deal will be reached no doubt, but its this period of uncertainty where farmers who would be looking to sell stock may be financially at risk.

Theres alot to be said for the steady off farm day job!

tanko

The Beef Tribunal, BSE, Foot and Mouth, the Horsemeat scandal, English supermarkets inventing Nomad cattle etc etc didn't finish off the beef industry.
Who knows if Brexit will either?

Username John

divillybit wrote: »

I think there is alot suckler farmers collectively can do to protect themselves, and thats just to cut back on stock by 15% or so. That may just mean keeping 5 or 6 fewer cows. It could cause supplies to tighten alot and would help support the price of cattle in the event of a period of uncertainty when the UK do leave the EU. In time a deal will be reached no doubt, but its this period of uncertainty where farmers who would be looking to sell stock may be financially at risk.

Theres alot to be said for the steady off farm day job!

Why are you so keen on the 15%

As others have said, it's hard to know what to do...

Given you haven't started farming yet - would you consider putting off starting farming for 10+ years - til we all see how Brexit pans out?

divillybit

I think reducing stock numbers by 15 or even 20% is just a way of limiting risk in the event that livestock values decline in the period post Brexit which is a possibility if the UK market is not an option for Irish meat exports for a short period. It is easy to scale back up numbers once the uncertainty passes.

While I may not have started farming in my own right I am very much involved in the home farm here which we have 50 sucker cows and and 60 ewes. To be honest I didn't want to put money into livestock as it's such a low margin business and I was away from home for work. For me putting money into a house for myself that I bought 2 years ago was a far better investment than putting it into livestock.

tomwaterford

Who2 wrote: »

What would you suggest, it's not burying the head in the sand, it's accepting that even the genius's in charge have no real knowledge of what's about to happen, the impact or even the slightest clue of who or what is going to be trading. It's all doom and gloom, I'll wait till there's something definitive before I gamble on an unknown outcome.

ID not borrow/invest heavily for a few years to see where things land....really would think of reducing numbers/cull very hard


Maybe I'm wrong and Britain will continue to buy irish beef and not bother with the cheaper alternatives from Brazil and Argentina etc??


Just deosnt seem logical though

Bass Reeves

In Chinese danger and opportunity is the same word. I will not worry about Brexit until it happens. At present for the first time since the vote pools are saying that the majority now do not want to leave. Brexit will happen in some form. However Britian is a net food importer. Will it allow unrestricted importation of cheap agriculture produce, this is questionable. It will have to negotiate access to the EU for its own goods and services. In return it will have to allow priority access for EU goods and services.

It is more interesting to look at the way beef prices are going. The US is now the second highest priced beef market in the developed world after the UK( I am ignoring the likes of Turkey or Japan as both are limited access markets). Italy is now high priced again. The only cheap beef around is Brazil ( again caught with it pants down), Poland and the Netherlands. Argentina is a restricted exporter because of domestic demand hard to see that change in the short term The UK demands huge assurance in its food products. It is unlikely that its retailers will drop there standards. They still require Steer and heifer beef in the main from cattle slaughtered sub 30 months with limited demand for bulls when supply is low.


It is interesting to see countries like the US and Australia now becoming high priced beef countries with there scale and ranch type farming. Unless they pump up supply again and both have structural issues regarding water and its demand by other sectors rather than agriculture that may well restrict demand.

I would not overly worry about what I cannot predict. If the government wanted to do anything about reducing supply ( and they do not) all they have to do is abandon suckler schemes this would solve excess product on the supply side.

BlinkingLights

davidk1394 wrote: »

Bord Bia and Ornua are doing good work abroad promoting Irish food and beverages. On the beef side it must be sold as a premium product because we wont be able to match the likes of Brazil, Argentina or the U.S in terms of output or cost of production. At the moment everything is speculation and the price is fluctuating due to all of this speculation. Nobody knows what will happen with BREXIT, and the negotiations will take at least 10 years. Irish meat processors are buying factories in the U.K so they can fill the market with British beef.

Its hard to know what any farmer in Ireland should do because even if you think your doing the right thing it could be the wrong thing.

Despite the rhetoric in the UK about buying local, they quite literally can't produce enough beef or any other agricultural product to be self-sufficient and I can't honestly see most British consumers being suddenly comfortable with Brazilian or US beef. They're both very fussy and highly price insensitive.

A few % price change isn't going to cause British consumers to rush to Brazilian beef and Chinese cheese or something. Most of them will just continue as normal and feel a bit poorer.

I think in general consumers are much more conservative around meat and dairy than any other agricultural product types. It'll be things like French apples that are more likely to get replaced, particularly if they cut a deal with the USA.

TITANIUM.

Bass Reeves wrote: »

If the government wanted to do anything about reducing supply ( and they do not) all they have to do is abandon suckler schemes this would solve excess product on the supply side.

Don't think so Bass.
What schemes are there that are going at the moment that could be described as Suckler Schemes?
I can think of 1, BDGP. And losing that isn't going to break anyone as the money is small and relative to each farm size/output.
And please don't mention ANC as most of the country is in that.

Bullocks

TITANIUM. wrote: »

Don't think so Bass.
What schemes are there that are going at the moment that could be described as Suckler Schemes?
I can think of 1, BDGP. And losing that isn't going to break anyone as the money is small and relative to each farm size/output.
And please don't mention ANC as most of the country is in that.

They could be the difference in staying at it because you're not losing money with them or getting out because you can't afford a hobby farm without them . I'd say alot of beef farm's are lucky not to be dipping into the brown envelope to put back into the farm not to mind filling a brown envelope from beef sales for yourself

20silkcut

The only real parallel in historic terms that we have is the anglo irish economic war of the 1930's. That was a disaster for Irish agriculture.
Trade wars are devastating make no mistake.
The British market is hugely important for us.
People are over estimating the discerning British consumer the reality is that when two identical products are placed side by side the cheaper will sell there is no getting away from that.

I am reminded of the great debate a decade ago about what would happen all the towns that are being by passed by motorways. There was a general feeling that they would be fine and would in fact do better with less traffic and things would settle down and all would be well.

I drove the old Dublin/cork road a few weeks ago and every town has major premises gone derelict some more than others and landmark road houses and hotels all gone to rack and ruin particularly after port Laois.
Decisions like these have major major consequences and sometimes due to the fact it takes years to happen they go almost unnoticed or unmentioned.A hard Brexit would finish beef farming in this country no doubt about that don't listen to anyone saying it will be a soft landing or things will settle down and all will be well. Human nature has a tendency to put a positive spin on everything.
Sorry if that sounds very stark the truth is we probably won't fall off a cliff and the writing will appear on the wall long before the price of cattle collapses. So anyone who wants to get out should get out unscathed. The EU will probably have supports to adjust to new markets.
But no doubt hard Brexit will finish beef farming in Ireland IMO. It might revive other agricultural industries like sugar beet.

Bass Reeves

20silkcut wrote: »

The only real parallel in historic terms that we have is the anglo irish economic war of the 1930's. That was a disaster for Irish agriculture.
Trade wars are devastating make no mistake.
The British market is hugely important for us.
People are over estimating the discerning British consumer the reality is that when two identical products are placed side by side the cheaper will sell there is no getting away from that.

I am reminded of the great debate a decade ago about what would happen all the towns that are being by passed by motorways. There was a general feeling that they would be fine and would in fact do better with less traffic and things would settle down and all would be well.

I drove the old Dublin/cork road a few weeks ago and every town has major premises gone derelict some more than others and landmark road houses and hotels all gone to rack and ruin particularly after port Laois.
Decisions like these have major major consequences and sometimes due to the fact it takes years to happen they go almost unnoticed or unmentioned.A hard Brexit would finish beef farming in this country no doubt about that don't listen to anyone saying it will be a soft landing or things will settle down and all will be well. Human nature has a tendency to put a positive spin on everything.
Sorry if that sounds very stark the truth is we probably won't fall off a cliff and the writing will appear on the wall long before the price of cattle collapses. So anyone who wants to get out should get out unscathed. The EU will probably have supports to adjust to new markets.
But no doubt hard Brexit will finish beef farming in Ireland IMO. It might revive other agricultural industries like sugar beet.

I agree that the British Market is hugely important to us. However we are not the only countries that it is important to. Cars from Germany mainly, Cheese and Wine from France, Pork and Bacon from Denmark. On the British side if they want to keep finiancial services within the EU they will have to bend as well.

When push comes to shove neither the EU or Britain will want an economic shock to happen. Even if it dose we as farmers can do nothing about it. Remember as well we one of Britain's biggest export market. Neither side will blink but again neither will either side force the other side into a position where it will be forced to make stupid decisions. May called the election so as to will a bigger majority that will allow here not to depend on Tory Eu sceptics. However it may backfire on her. On the other side the Liberals democrats may mop up Labour seats that may well put it into a position of influence.

BlinkingLights

Bear in mind that Ireland's actually the UK's 5th (and occasionally 4th) largest export market in raw money value and many of the products that they export to us are highly substitutable with continental equivalents from within the Eurozone.

In a lot of cases, we are just still treated as part of the UK market and there's been a lot of inertia about moving away from that.

Cutting off trade with Ireland would actually cost a large number of British jobs, so it's really not in their interests to do that and we are not a mediocre trading partner. The value of UK exports to Ireland is bigger than the value of exports to China!!

There'll be a lot of foot dragging and brinkmanship, but some kind of deal will be done with the EU in the end.

divillybit

Worrying times ahead as beef processors are preparing for a hard Brexit..The latest beef process consolidation has seen Dawn Meats pool its uk assets into a joint venture with Dunbia meats, who are based in Dungannon. So they've created a seperate company which will own the enlarged UK processing business - ring-fencing their assets into a standalone business for the UK market.. Looks like a greater seperation of the Irish and British beef markets by making it easier for them to source beef for processing in their UK plants from the UK - and not from Ireland.

Thats a comment by Richard Curran in Sundays Independant Business section under the headline 'beef brexit battle lines are drawn'

Base price

Interesting reading and not new news to us.
http://www.farmersjournal.ie/amp/two-consignments-of-brazilian-meat-rejected-282649

ganmo

If direct payments to farmers are removed, then market prices would have to increase by around 25%, just to keep our business ticking over.

“I think it’s highly unlikely that the government will allow food prices to increase by that amount. So farmers are left facing the possibility of a future that could be extremely challenging.

If we were to see that 25%rise in food prices imagine what that would bring to ireland
http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/brexit-an-english-farming-perspective/

Buford T. Justice XIX

I was at a meeting during the week and the figure of 15c/l added cost to a liter of milk of a hard border from Brexit.

So todays price would have to be 17c/l to enable exports to Britain.

Tbh, there's a lot of sh!te being talked atm. When push comes to shove, both sides will have to see sense as they are mutually dependent, whether either side likes it or not. Britain is a huge market for high end German goods and Britain is a huge exporter of similar goods to Germany and Europe.

I hope anyway.

Bass Reeves

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

I was at a meeting during the week and the figure of 15c/l added cost to a liter of milk of a hard border from Brexit.

So todays price would have to be 17c/l to enable exports to Britain.

Tbh, there's a lot of sh!te being talked atm. When push comes to shove, both sides will have to see sense as they are mutually dependent, whether either side likes it or not. Britain is a huge market for high end German goods and Britain is a huge exporter of similar goods to Germany and Europe.

I hope anyway.

Look at your supermarket shelves, most buiscuits, cakes, canned foods, breakfast cereals, washing powders, cosmetics etc etc are all sourced through or from Britian. A hard border will mean that Tesco closes down and Lidl and Aldi source more of there products from Europe. Brexit will be a non event in another 2-3 years there will be a right fudge in the end

patsy_mccabe

I don't know why they didn't just go back to the people and say - "Are you sure?".
It worked in Ireland. Sometimes I wonder how they ruled us for 800 years.:D

J.O. Farmer

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

I don't know why they didn't just go back to the people and say - "Are you sure?".
It worked in Ireland. Sometimes I wonder how they ruled us for 800 years.:D

That's the keep voting until you get the right answer approach. I'm expecting we'll soon have voting papers with "Yes" and "Tà" as the options. I don't remember being asked for the best of 3 on any of those.

With the brits maybe leave was the right answer and it's just that the politicians want to say to the other countries we want to stay but the great unwashed are making us do it.

Look at Cameron is he 50 yet. He's managed to get one of the biggest majorities ever and then found a reason to retire before it all went wrong. while telling Angela how much he likes her before it.

pedigree 6

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

I don't know why they didn't just go back to the people and say - "Are you sure?".
It worked in Ireland. Sometimes I wonder how they ruled us for 800 years.:D

Just look on the farming forum and you would've seen some of the support for brexit from British farmers and mostly it was coming down to rules and regs from the EU and large subsidies to large landowners who's ancestor killed the King's rival. Call it jealousy or unfairness but there's huge resentment over there for someone with thousands of acres getting 100's of thousands of euro in financial aid and others getting diddly squat. The big hope by some was that financial aid would be levelled out with brexit and terminated.

Now we get on the EU side and more so the German side or East German specifically. After WW2 when the Prussian state was abolished ethnic Germans who had lived in east Prussia for generations were either killed or their children took to the forests and tried to migrate on foot to Germany for safety.
These children survived by robbing food from Lithuanian farmers and many died on the march to Germany.

Now some of these children or their children are in power in the European Union. In their minds if there were no divisions of people no divisions of countries, everyone the same and everyone treated the same (just Europeans) that maybe instead of those Lithuanian farmers trying to shoot them for stealing food that maybe they would have welcomed them into their homes and fed them.

Now we come to the British side and Britain has always been an independent bunch and used to telling other people what to do instead of being told themselves what to do. So it's no surprise when Britain wants to maintain some sort of independence (false or otherwise).
When the French president was elected the anthem played was the EU anthem "Ode to joy". So we just may be in the new regime already.

Just a few thoughts.

kowtow

pedigree 6 wrote: »

Now we come to the British side and Britain has always been an independent bunch and used to telling other people what to do instead of being told themselves what to do. So it's no surprise when Britain wants to maintain some sort of independence (false or otherwise).
When the French president was elected the anthem played was the EU anthem "Ode to joy". So we just may be in the new regime already.

Just a few thoughts.

I think that's exactly it. The mainland of Europe has always been quite a fluid place. I can think of German families who consider themselves culturally almost as French as German, and probably vice versa, let alone the old Eastern bloc... it's notable that Switzerland and the UK never got into the spirit of this.. both surrounded and/or isolated by mountains or sea and both with strong cultural histories of individual freedom (or what we used to call a Liberal tradition, until the word got hijacked)

What surprised me, upon my return here, was how much Ireland had taken up the EU banner... for a nation so keen on sovereignty we don't seem to care to hang on to it for very long. After a while I think I accepted that there is a combination of novelty value and "not britishness" about the EU which makes it super attractive to us here. It's ironic, actually, because I can't think of a people in Europe less suited to the Napoleonic code than us, but there we are.

I think Brexit - if it plays out as anything other than "soft" - is going to mark the beginning of another important chapter for Ireland, and one which may end in a number of very unexpected ways.

Base price

kowtow wrote: »

What surprised me, upon my return here, was how much Ireland had taken up the EU banner... for a nation so keen on sovereignty we don't seem to care to hang on to it for very long. After a while I think I accepted that there is a combination of novelty value and "not britishness" about the EU which makes it super attractive to us here. It's ironic, actually, because I can't think of a people in Europe less suited to the Napoleonic code than us, but there we are.

I think a lot of that was down to Government (especially FG) enthusiastically adopting every nit bit of legislation drawn up in Brussels. I think most of us would have preferred to pick and choose what suited us best at any particular time Other EU states don't appear to have embraced some legislation with the same gusto that we have.
I always consider myself Irish and I live on an island on the edge of Europe. To me the EU is just a trade agreement.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Base price wrote: »

I think a lot of that was down to Government (especially FG) enthusiastically adopting every nit bit of legislation drawn up in Brussels. I think most of us would have preferred to pick and choose what suited us best at any particular time Other EU states don't appear to have embraced some legislation with the same gusto that we have.
I always consider myself Irish and I live on an island on the edge of Europe. To me the EU is just a trade agreement.

We are a big net beneficiary of EU funds so we have little room for picking which legislation we agree to. And the net contributors have the power to frame the legislation in a way to suit their countries so we are doubly screwed in that system.

Username John

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

We are a big net beneficiary of EU funds so we have little room for picking which legislation we agree to. And the net contributors have the power to frame the legislation in a way to suit their countries so we are doubly screwed in that system.

Is that still the case?

I thought we used to be net beneficiaries, but that had changed in the past few years, to us now being a net contributor (albeit prob fairly small)

Found this :
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/ireland-contributes-more-money-than-it-gets-to-eu-for-first-time-34815450.html

J.O. Farmer

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

We are a big net beneficiary of EU funds so we have little room for picking which legislation we agree to.

That seems to be the reason that was given for voting for the last couple of EU referenda. It did come across as it's not a great thing for us but we owe the EU.
Like Base Price I think the EU should be a trade agreement but it's becoming more like the United States of Europe and that we should feel European first and Irish second. I identity as Irish when abroad and by my county in this country but never European.
As someone else said in Germany they can identify culturally with France. Having shared accommodation with French people here (I mean over a longer term rather than in a hotel for a week) I can say culturally they are different.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Username John wrote: »

Is that still the case?

I thought we used to be net beneficiaries, but that had changed in the past few years, to us now being a net contributor (albeit prob fairly small)

Found this :
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/ireland-contributes-more-money-than-it-gets-to-eu-for-first-time-34815450.html

I was looking at a post in either AH or Politics Cafe in the last day or two and there was a table showing us as a net beneficiary in 2013, iirc.

Damned if I can find it though:(

Buford T. Justice XIX

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

I was looking at a post in either AH or Politics Cafe in the last day or two and there was a table showing us as a net beneficiary in 2013, iirc.

Damned if I can find it though:(

Edit: just saw your link, interesting that

.

J.O. Farmer

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

I was looking at a post in either AH or Politics Cafe in the last day or two and there was a table showing us as a net beneficiary in 2013, iirc.

Damned if I can find it though:(

Reading johns link you would be correct as 2014 was the first year we were net contributors.

kowtow

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

I identity as Irish when abroad and by my county in this country but never European.

Me too, despite having lived here for only about 20% of my life (at either end, so far!) and having lived and worked in and around Europe.

My children are the same - they grew up (even if you would barely know it now) speaking French & German but identify themselves clearly as Irish (with perhaps a nod to their English mother)... they maintain as many close friends in mainland Europe as they do inside Ireland and yet they don't have any great political urge to describe themselves as European.

White Clover

Base price wrote: »

I think a lot of that was down to Government (especially FG) enthusiastically adopting every nit bit of legislation drawn up in Brussels. I think most of us would have preferred to pick and choose what suited us best at any particular time Other EU states don't appear to have embraced some legislation with the same gusto that we have.
I always consider myself Irish and I live on an island on the edge of Europe. To me the EU is just a trade agreement.

Fine Gael were in power for 6 of the last 20. years. Fianna Fail were there for 14 years. Do you have evidence to back up your statement re which governments introduced more EU legislation?

visatorro

kowtow wrote: »

I think that's exactly it. The mainland of Europe has always been quite a fluid place. I can think of German families who consider themselves culturally almost as French as German, and probably vice versa, let alone the old Eastern bloc... it's notable that Switzerland and the UK never got into the spirit of this.. both surrounded and/or isolated by mountains or sea and both with strong cultural histories of individual freedom (or what we used to call a Liberal tradition, until the word got hijacked)

What surprised me, upon my return here, was how much Ireland had taken up the EU banner... for a nation so keen on sovereignty we don't seem to care to hang on to it for very long. After a while I think I accepted that there is a combination of novelty value and "not britishness" about the EU which makes it super attractive to us here. It's ironic, actually, because I can't think of a people in Europe less suited to the Napoleonic code than us, but there we are.

I think Brexit - if it plays out as anything other than "soft" - is going to mark the beginning of another important chapter for Ireland, and one which may end in a number of very unexpected ways.

If you go to the aviva or croke Park and listen to the disgraceful effort at singing our national anthem you some learn that Irish people don't care about sovereignty, only the session afterwards!! Once the money is going everyone is pro EU. I wonder where the British farmers subs will come from, the NHS surplus??

kowtow

visatorro wrote: »

If you go to the aviva or croke Park and listen to the disgraceful effort at singing our national anthem you some learn that Irish people don't care about sovereignty, only the session afterwards!! Once the money is going everyone is pro EU. I wonder where the British farmers subs will come from, the NHS surplus??

The farming community in the UK seems to be quite evenly split from what I see.

On the one hand they have an opportunity of sorts - they are net importers of food and they are going to be able to run a pretty effective "buy british" campaign which might well chime with the national mood. There's already quite a rich seam of diversification and local food going on which can only do better.

On the other hand there is loss of subsidy, imports on a grand scale, exports....

visatorro

I do agree with you and have a good bit of respect for your posting. Older generation here says it's very similar to thatcher and the coal. It can be bought cheaper elsewhere. The upper class will buy a premium product but the millions in the working /lower class will be buying cheap imported food for the most part . Imported from where we can't be sure.

Does anyone know what % of GDP UK ag exports amount to?