Potential new Dublin Bus routes

Thrashssacre

It's fairly clear from looking at a map of the network that it isn't the most interconnected piece of public transport. (unless you want to visit the city first) so what route or routes would you create to make a more connected network?

Also should Dublin bus be used to feed Irish rails commuter and dart network better? How should this be achieved?

Stephen15

I suggest a new route between Bray and Dundrum it would connect Bray, Shankill and Cabinteely with Dundrum.

thomasj

Blanchardstown centre to swords village serving, snugborough road , finglas village, glasnevin, Ballymun , santry avenue, swords road, airport and swords

Stevek101

New route network will be in place first quarter next year. I'd imagine it'll be a complete overall, with high frequency core routes linking up with orbitals. This lads group won the contract http://humantransit.org/.

Thrashssacre

Stevek101 wrote: »

New route network will be in place first quarter next year. I'd imagine it'll be a complete overall, with high frequency core routes linking up with orbitals. This lads group won the contract http://humantransit.org/.

Interesting, any whispers of some of the proposed changes or is this all the information you have for now?

devnull

Contract was only awarded recently, the plan is that the company who won the tender with the NTA will re-draw the network fully.

Stevek101

Tender laid out a timetable. End of year would be start of consultations with stake holders followed by implementation Q1 18 and review with any improvements/changes needed by summer 18.

Losty Dublin

Stephen15 wrote: »

I suggest a new route between Bray and Dundrum it would connect Bray, Shankill and Cabinteely with Dundrum.

That sounds like the 86 of old. Finnegan actually runs a Bray-Sandyford service that covers a similar route as far as the Luas.

http://www.finnegan-bray.ie/timetable

boobycharlton

Route linking Lucan/Clondalkin/Tallaght . A route from Clondalkin that directly serves the Red Cow Luas would be handy too.

Stephen15

Losty Dublin wrote: »

That sounds like the 86 of old. Finnegan actually runs a Bray-Sandyford service that covers a similar route as far as the Luas.

http://www.finnegan-bray.ie/timetable

Monday to Friday only that is with no evening service. The 86 was a riddiculously long and winding route. It also operated pre Dundrum SC days. A route from Bray to Dundrum could run Bray - Shankill - Louglinstown - Cabinteely - Whites Cross - Sandyford Ind. Estate - Dundrum. Dundrum back in those days was just another suburban village like Stillorgan, Rathfarnham or Blackrock. Its now an important hub like Dun Laoghaire.

Losty Dublin

Stephen15 wrote: »

Monday to Friday only that is with no evening service. The 86 was a riddiculously long and winding route. It also operated pre Dundrum SC days. A route from Bray to Dundrum could run Bray - Shankill - Louglinstown - Cabinteely - Whites Cross - Sandyford Ind. Estate - Dundrum. Dundrum back in those days was just another suburban village like Stillorgan, Rathfarnham or Blackrock. Its now an important hub like Dun Laoghaire.

Bar White's Cross, that is more or less the basic route of the 86. The route was introduced to replace trains on the Harcourt Street line so it's route took in Ranelagh, Milltown, Dundrum, Foxrock, Cabinteely, Cornelscourt and Shankill before getting to Bray. Over time it lost services and route bit by bit until it's final cancelation in 2009 where it had but one departure a day between Shankill and Sandyford, a shadow of it's former self. Certainly there could be a social case for such a route if not a financial one.

Elemonator

thomasj wrote: »

Blanchardstown centre to swords village serving, snugborough road , finglas village, glasnevin, Ballymun , santry avenue, swords road, airport and swords

That would literally take forever though.

Well figuratively.

Stephen15

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Bar White's Cross, that is more or less the basic route of the 86. The route was introduced to replace trains on the Harcourt Street line so it's route took in Ranelagh, Milltown, Dundrum, Foxrock, Cabinteely, Cornelscourt and Shankill before getting to Bray. Over time it lost services and route bit by bit until it's final cancelation in 2009 where it had but one departure a day between Shankill and Sandyford, a shadow of it's former self. Certainly there could be a social case for such a route if not a financial one.

I'd say a route between Bray and Dundrum would get a good loading espeically with shoppers going to Dundrum Shopping centre you seem to forget to mention that Dundrum TC wasnt built during the time of the 86. The 86 also didn't run on the n11. My suggestion would be n11 from Loughlinstown to Whites Cross and then up to Dundrum via Sandyford Industrial Estate another place the 86 never served.

LXFlyer

Stephen15 wrote: »

I'd say a route between Bray and Dundrum would get a good loading espeically with shoppers going to Dundrum Shopping centre you seem to forget to mention that Dundrum TC wasnt built during the time of the 86. The 86 also didn't run on the n11. My suggestion would be n11 from Loughlinstown to Whites Cross and then up to Dundrum via Sandyford Industrial Estate another place the 86 never served.

Why would you duplicate the LUAS?

Running the service as far as Brides Glen LUAS would be more realistic than running to Dundrum as the 75 covers the section from Foxrock Church to Dundrum.

An enhanced 84/84a might be a better use of such a resource.

RayM

lxflyer wrote: »

An enhanced 84/84a might be a better use of such a resource.

84 to Dundrum? Why not, I suppose - it's been sent almost everywhere else over the last few years. It'd make a lot more sense than Blackrock anyway.

Heroditas

boobycharlton wrote: »

Route linking Lucan/Clondalkin/Tallaght . A route from Clondalkin that directly serves the Red Cow Luas would be handy too.

Merge the 76 and 239 and add in a few extra stops might do the trick.

LXFlyer

Elemonator wrote: »

That would literally take forever though.

Well figuratively.

Part of the problem that many people don't get is that for most orbital routes there would not be enough people travelling end-to end to justify them.

For an orbital route to be successful they have to generally pass multiple traffic generators along the way to create sufficient passengers - in other words generating journeys all along the route. That's why they do often take diversions to serve shopping centres, hospitals, etc.

Now whether duplicating the 17a for most of the route in this case is a good idea, I'm not sure. It's difficult to know what would be a good route that would generate decent passenger numbers.

LXFlyer

Heroditas wrote: »

Merge the 76 and 239 and add in a few extra stops might do the trick.

How would you continue to serve Ballyfermot if you merged the 239 and 76? There was uproar there when it was suggested that the 76 be removed from Ballyfermot.

Those two routes serve distinct markets really and I can't see a merger happening.

What's needed in West Dublin is:

* A frequent service along the Fonthill Road and then continuing across via the M50 to serve the industrial areas in Blanchardstown and the Blanchardstown Shopping Centre.

* The planned 166 from Liffey Valley via South Lucan and Grange Castle to Citywest and Tallaght

Heroditas

lxflyer wrote: »

How would you continue to serve Ballyfermot if you merged the 239 and 76? There was uproar there when it was suggested that the 76 be removed from Ballyfermot.

Those two routes serve distinct markets really and I can't see a merger happening.

What's needed in West Dublin is:

* A frequent service along the Fonthill Road and then continuing across via the M50 to serve the industrial areas in Blanchardstown and the Blanchardstown Shopping Centre.

* The planned 166 from Liffey Valley via South Lucan and Grange Castle to Citywest and Tallaght

I had completely forgotten about Ballyfermot!
Agreed regarding your two suggestions though.

LXFlyer

RayM wrote: »

84 to Dundrum? Why not, I suppose - it's been sent almost everywhere else over the last few years. It'd make a lot more sense than Blackrock anyway.

No, I did not say operate it to Dundrum.

That would be a complete waste of a resource as you would be duplicating with the LUAS and the 75 unnecessarily.

The focus should be on connecting with the LUAS - extend it up to serve the Brides Glen LUAS stop and perhaps increase the 84a (Bray-Blackrock) during the day.

Given that no other route serves Clonkeen Road since the 63 was re-routed, and that the route also carries a lot of schoolchildren, that link is not going to be severed.

RayM

lxflyer wrote: »

No other route serves Clonkeen Road since the 63 was re-routed, and that the route also carries a lot of schoolchildren, that link is not going to be severed.

Whatever they choose to do with it in the future, the 84 was a fairly busy route before they decided to abbreviate it. Certainly busier than it is nowadays (it regularly travels virtually empty between Loughlinstown and Blackrook). Whatever they do with it, the Clonkeen Rd-Deansgrange-Blackrock is a worthless excursion outside of the school term.

markpb

Stephen15 wrote:

I'd say a route between Bray and Dundrum would get a good loading espeically with shoppers going to Dundrum Shopping centre

Running buses anywhere near Dundrum TC is a lot like wiping your ass with €50 notes. It seems like a great idea at the time but every weekend you're left wondering where your money went to. The traffic there every weekend combined with the lack of bus lanes makes it a compete non starter.

cherryghost

lxflyer wrote: »

How would you continue to serve Ballyfermot if you merged the 239 and 76? There was uproar there when it was suggested that the 76 be removed from Ballyfermot.

Those two routes serve distinct markets really and I can't see a merger happening.

What's needed in West Dublin is:

* A frequent service along the Fonthill Road and then continuing across via the M50 to serve the industrial areas in Blanchardstown and the Blanchardstown Shopping Centre.

* The planned 166 from Liffey Valley via South Lucan and Grange Castle to Citywest and Tallaght

I was talking to the nta some months ago. The 239 Will seemingly be retired and a new route from Tallaght to liffey valley via fonthill, and onwards to blanchardstown will come into effect sometime this summer

LXFlyer

cherryghost wrote: »

I was talking to the nta some months ago. The 239 Will seemingly be retired and a new route from Tallaght to liffey valley via fonthill, and onwards to blanchardstown will come into effect sometime this summer

I'll wait and see - the evidence is that there is a market for both direct routes and local community routes.

As such, I would see both being retained in this case - a direct route across the M50 and a local community route such as the 239. Otherwise the direct connection between Lucan and Blanchardstown would be lost.

That has been borne out across the city where local routes are still operating that serve housing estates, while more frequent direct routes operate along main arterial routes.

Dravokivich

boobycharlton wrote: »

Route linking Lucan/Clondalkin/Tallaght . A route from Clondalkin that directly serves the Red Cow Luas would be handy too.

Every route through Monastery Road stops off outside it. It doesn't need to go in.

Towards city, closest stop is by IBIS, but you'd be better to get off at Kylemore.

Outbound from the city, there's a stop next to the bridge that goes over the N7. But again, you are better off getting off at Kylemore.

However there's several spots these options cross over. Blackhorse, Suir Rd, James' St Hospital, across the bridge from Hueston.

If you wish to get to Tallaght from Clondalkin and you aren't by Monastery Rd, a 76 may be a better option.

Losty Dublin

lxflyer wrote: »

I'll wait and see - the evidence is that there is a market for both direct routes and local community routes.

As such, I would see both being retained in this case - a direct route across the M50 and a local community route such as the 239. Otherwise the direct connection between Lucan and Blanchardstown would be lost.

That has been borne out across the city where local routes are still operating that serve housing estates, while more frequent direct routes operate along main arterial routes.

Wasn't there plans for a 175 and 176, which were to be more direct versions of the 75 and 76? Perhaps the 236 is involved in these plans?

LXFlyer

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Wasn't there plans for a 175 and 176, which were to be more direct versions of the 75 and 76? Perhaps the 236 is involved in these plans?

The original plans for the western and southern orbitals were shelved due to the economic crash.

The 75 was to be split into the 75 and 175 between Tallaght and Dun Laoghaire and both straightened out (the latter operating via the Green route from Tallaght to Ballinteer).

The 76 was supposed to operate to Blanchardstown, but local opposition in Ballyfermot to the removal of the route put an end to that.

There was supposed to be a new route 166 linking Liffey Valley with Tallaght via the Outer Ring Road.

Other changes were planned for the 17 (extend to Heuston and re-route via Rathgar and Dartry - the latter a bad idea in my opinion) and the 18 (extend to Docklands), but have yet to be implemented.

Whatever happens next in terms of network changes will be as a result of the Jarrett Walker network review for the NTA I would think, which will probably not be implemented until early next year.

In the meantime the 75 is to get a revised schedule in due course with extended running times to improve reliability and increased frequency. It is being badly affected by delays in the Stillorgan, Nutgrove and Firhouse areas with many eastbound services having to operate in set down mode from Stillorgan onwards, or having to be cancelled due to extremely late arrivals in Tallaght.

loyatemu

a service linking Greystones/Bray to Dundrum might be popular with teenagers going to the cinema or just to hang out at "the mall". Bus+Luas is not practical at the moment because the 84 is so infrequent and the 145 doesn't serve the Luas stop.

Also I predict that the new network will become mired in local political issues, and eventually be totally ruined by compromises. You heard it here first! (or possibly you heard it previously during "Network Direct")

Stephen15

A 145x would be a good idea. Skipping certain stops and I'd also have have it bypass Shankill and run on the n11 as far as Bray. The 145 can be quite slow with plenty of stops along the n11 its also prone to bunching a 145x would help eliminate this and provide a more direct route between Bray and Town as most of Bray is not covered by the 84x

omicron

An m50 service, from Bray to the airport, with stops at major junctions linking up with other services. Preferably with hard shoulder running allowed when the m50 grinds to a halt.
Plenty of trip generators given the amount of development around the m50.

LXFlyer

omicron wrote: »

An m50 service, from Bray to the airport, with stops at major junctions linking up with other services. Preferably with hard shoulder running allowed when the m50 grinds to a halt.
Plenty of trip generators given the amount of development around the m50.

Just to note that Dublin Coach already operate a service every 30 minutes from Dundrum LUAS to Dublin Airport via Red Cow LUAS. There would have to be a significant difference between that service and any new PSO service, as otherwise the NTA would have a conflict between commercial and subsidised routes. For that reason I'd imagine it isn't a runner.

I'm not sure where you think people are going to get on and off these buses - at each free flowing junction the buses would have to go some way off the M50 and then return in order to set down and pick up passengers at a safe location where bus routes intersect. That will mean interacting with the general traffic in those sections too.

The problem with the kind of service that you're suggesting is that it would require multiple transfers for most potential users - one bus/tram to get to it, the second the service along the M50, and a third to get to where they are going.

The more transfers you add in, the less palatable to any potential users such a service would be. Add to that the fact that many businesses are located a significant distance inside business parks, which can mean a long walk to/from public transport. That's not going to attract that many people out of their cars.

Realistically any new PSO orbital services would have to go along roads such as the Outer Ring Road, Fonthill Road, and the Green Route from Tallaght to Ballinteer. Basically travelling along the direct routes that serve local communities, and workplaces. The only section of the M50 I would see being used is the Westlink between the N4 and N3. That would facilitate more people directly rather than having to make transfers.

Stephen15

omicron wrote: »

An m50 service, from Bray to the airport, with stops at major junctions linking up with other services. Preferably with hard shoulder running allowed when the m50 grinds to a halt.
Plenty of trip generators given the amount of development around the m50.

Maybe not apporiate for DB to run but certainly possible for a private operator perhaps Dublin Coach could provide a service to compete with the Aircoach and add to their Dundrum service.

I personally dont use the services of either of the two as I find Quick Park to be handier and better value for money.

Ben D Bus

Liffey Valley to Dundrum via Ballyfermot (or maybe N4 to Chapelizod), then the R112 along Kylemore Rd (Luas Red Line), Walkinstown Roundabout, Templeogue Rd Junction and Dundrum (Luas Green line) and possibly extended to either Belfield or Booterstown DART. The route could either take Breamor Rd or a slight detour to serve Rathfarnham and Nutgrove.

I'm seeing Liffey Valley & Dundrum in a lot of suggestions!

Stevek101

loyatemu wrote: »

a service linking Greystones/Bray to Dundrum might be popular with teenagers going to the cinema or just to hang out at "the mall". Bus+Luas is not practical at the moment because the 84 is so infrequent and the 145 doesn't serve the Luas stop.

Also I predict that the new network will become mired in local political issues, and eventually be totally ruined by compromises. You heard it here first! (or possibly you heard it previously during "Network Direct")

They'll have a special team of professionals dedicated to sell this and more. Its' very different to anything we've seen before.

john boye

Not a new route obviously but I've often thought that extending the 123 up to Limekiln Avenue could work. Space constraints up there might put the kibosh on it though, it can get quite crowded at times as it is.

Stephen15

Im confused reading this thread are changes actually being made to the network or is this just another crayons theard.

LXFlyer

Stephen15 wrote: »

Im confused reading this thread are changes actually being made to the network or is this just another crayons theard.

There is a full network review by transport consultants Jarrett Walker commissioned by the NTA to go to consultation later in the year, with implementation in 2018.

Right now - people are just expressing their own opinions.

boobycharlton

Would love if they added a few more services to the 51D as well. Great not having to use the god awful M50 traffic merging into bus lane Naas Road, and zero bus priority Bluebell and Inchicore like the other Clondalkin (13/69/68) routes do.

fleet_admiral

A route to Ballymount industrial estate from Terenure/Harolds Cross.
I know the 9 goes near but a route into the industrial estate would be good

LeinsterDub

lxflyer wrote: »

Part of the problem that many people don't get is that for most orbital routes there would not be enough people travelling end-to end to justify them.

Why would they need to travel end to end. The fare is nearly a flat fare regardless of distance at this stage?

LeinsterDub

lxflyer wrote: »

There is a full network review by transport consultants Jarrett Walker commissioned by the NTA to go to consultation later in the year....

...results published in 2018. Political interference mid 2018 a compromise set of routes which will completely miss the point going live in late 2018

LXFlyer

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Why would they need to travel end to end. The fare is nearly a flat fare regardless of distance at this stage?

It's nothing to do with the fare - it's the design of the route.

People to think in terms solely of their commute when thinking of orbital routes, and ignore the likely fact that their personal commute could be fairly unique.

In order to generate backsides on seats all day orbital routes will often take detours from the most direct route from A to B to serve traffic generators along the route.

That's the only way that they are usually viable.

cherryghost

boobycharlton wrote: »

Would love if they added a few more services to the 51D as well. Great not having to use the god awful M50 traffic merging into bus lane Naas Road, and zero bus priority Bluebell and Inchicore like the other Clondalkin (13/69/68) routes do.

The 51D has some weird timetables as well. Only the 2nd and 3rd arrive in the CC close to 9am, the first bus is in no-mans land at 8:20 in the CC, its always fairly empty too. I only take the 51D out to Clondalkin because of that, the evening timetables makes more sense to me.

PhoenixParker

Broombridge to Ballycoolin and associated areas.

It's an obvious one connecting the end of the Luas line & maynooth train line to a major centre of employment.

dashcamdanny

fleet_admiral wrote: »

A route to Ballymount industrial estate from Terenure/Harolds Cross.
I know the 9 goes near but a route into the industrial estate would be good

Existing Ballymount industrial estate buses are always empty. 56a for example. Loss making route as is I would think.

mortimer33

john boye wrote: »

Not a new route obviously but I've often thought that extending the 123 up to Limekiln Avenue could work. Space constraints up there might put the kibosh on it though, it can get quite crowded at times as it is.

I believe a submission to DB was made last month by SDCC Councillors for a less frequent 123A bus service that would do just that.

Dravokivich

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Existing Ballymount industrial estate buses are always empty. 56a for example. Loss making route as is I would think.

It's probably because it's not going through a catchment area where people want to get in from.

dashcamdanny

Dravokivich wrote: »

It's probably because it's not going through a catchment area where people want to get in from.

Maybe.

Maybe its worth researching. Where would you consider most people who work in Ballymount live?

LXFlyer

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Maybe.

Maybe its worth researching. Where would you consider most people who work in Ballymount live?

Well therein lies your second problem in planning for orbital bus routes.

With most industrial estates and business parks you'll find that employees' homes are scattered in all directions making it extremely difficult to plan public transport that would maximise use.

All you can do is provide public transport along the main arterial orbital routes.

Is much easier to plan radial routes in and out of the city centre as there are always major traffic flows along them.

LXFlyer

cherryghost wrote: »

The 51D has some weird timetables as well. Only the 2nd and 3rd arrive in the CC close to 9am, the first bus is in no-mans land at 8:20 in the CC, its always fairly empty too. I only take the 51D out to Clondalkin because of that, the evening timetables makes more sense to me.

08:20 would cover anyone starting at 08:30 or further along the route starting later.

Many people start their working day before 09:00.

john boye

mortimer33 wrote: »

I believe a submission to DB was made last month by SDCC Councillors for a less frequent 123A bus service that would do just that.

Interesting, thanks for that. Like I said, I do wonder if the terminus could handle more traffic.