Unpaid public order fines

shocka con

Anyone knows what happens to unpaid public order fines?
I have a friend who through stupidity has 2 unpaid public order fines from 2004 and now lives in a different county. one was for 200 and the other 300 so total 500.
Nothing ever happened about them but now my friend has grown up and wants to get a job that involves garda vetting for tutoring and is afraid that her record will reappear and let her down.

Samuel T. Cogley

It will and she is likely to do a bit of prison time in default of the fines. We're talking possibly hours here.

Get them sorted and spent. I assume the clock doesn't start to run on spent convictions until the fine etc. is dealt with. Could be wrong - frequently am.

Get her to speak to a solicitor ASAP.

Gavinz

It's always a friend. Weird, that.

GM228

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

It will and she is likely to do a bit of prison time in default of the fines. We're talking possibly hours here.

Get them sorted and spent. I assume the clock doesn't start to run on spent convictions until the fine etc. is dealt with. Could be wrong - frequently am.

Get her to speak to a solicitor ASAP.

Prison time in default of fines generally no longer happens.

Below is what happens:-

1. Default of fine = attachment order (or recovery order or community service if attachment not appropriate).

2. Default of attachment/recovery order = community service.

3. Default of community service (or where none of the above are appropriate) = prison time.

lifeandtimes

GM228 wrote: »

Prison time in default of fines generally no longer happens.

Below is what happens:-

1. Default of fine = attachment order (or recovery order or community service if attachment not appropriate).

2. Default of attachment/recovery order = community service.

3. Default of community service (or where none of the above are appropriate) = prison time.

Yep makes the most sense, why crowd the over populated prisons anymore over unpaid fines, especially if the person is willing to come to an agreement to pay them

Samuel T. Cogley

lifeandtimes wrote: »

Yep makes the most sense, why crowd the over populated prisons anymore over unpaid fines, especially if the person is willing to come to an agreement to pay them

A lot of the time people can't or won't pay them, especially if they know that prisons are overcrowded and 5 days in default is actually going to be a cup of tea in reception and then sent on their way.

ED E

If you want to get a glimpse at how broken the justice system is at the minute Sean O'Rourkes reporter Paddy O'Gorman (and his dog) frequent the courts around the country on a regular basis. A good 2/3 of convicts gleefully explain that they'd be crazy to pay any fines as they can spend 0-3hrs in their regional prison and get a free bus ticket home.

Tallaght: http://pca.st/QdN8
Blanchardstown: http://pca.st/v775
Dublin: http://pca.st/hsH1
Athlone: http://pca.st/Lz13
(little Dublin centric of late)

ezra_pound

GM228 wrote: »

Prison time in default of fines generally no longer happens.

Below is what happens:-

1. Default of fine = attachment order (or recovery order or community service if attachment not appropriate).

2. Default of attachment/recovery order = community service.

3. Default of community service (or where none of the above are appropriate) = prison time.

Yea but none of this applies for the op's fines. Prison only option.

ezra_pound

ezra_pound wrote: »

Yea but none of this applies for the op's fines. Prison only option.

Or pay fine, obviously.

CeilingFly

ED E wrote: »

If you want to get a glimpse at how broken the justice system is at the minute Sean O'Rourkes reporter Paddy O'Gorman (and his dog) frequent the courts around the country on a regular basis. A good 2/3 of convicts gleefully explain that they'd be crazy to pay any fines as they can spend 0-3hrs in their regional prison and get a free bus ticket home.

Tallaght: http://pca.st/QdN8
Blanchardstown: http://pca.st/v775
Dublin: http://pca.st/hsH1
Athlone: http://pca.st/Lz13
(little Dublin centric of late)

They obviously don't understand the changes made last year where attachment to earnings or social welfare is made or community service and prison is only an option in the most extreme cases and time will be served as the overcrowding has dropped off.

For the op, unless the person was under 18, then it will show on their record whether or not the fine was paid

GM228

ezra_pound wrote: »

Yea but none of this applies for the op's fines. Prison only option.

How do you come to that conclusion?

What I outlined is the legal requirement that a court must follow before handing down a prison sentence in default of payment of a fine.

blade1

Interesting username considering.

jimmycrackcorm

Wonder if the fines show up on the courts online payments system. They might be too far back.

GM228

CeilingFly wrote: »

attachment to earnings or social welfare

Attachment orders and social welfare payments don't go hand in hand (there are a number of issues here), this is one of the occassions where such orders are considered inappropriate and the next step is therefore community service in default of payment.

shocka con

Surely as it happened so long ago it shouldn't be prison time?

sunny2004

shocka con wrote: »

Surely as it happened so long ago it shouldn't be prison time?

you have your account 7 years and this is your first post OP.

If your "friend" has in fact "grown up", why are you researching this on boards?
Why isnt "she" as a grown up, picking up the phone to a solicitor and paying for advice ?

Samuel T. Cogley

shocka con wrote: »

Surely as it happened so long ago it shouldn't be prison time?

'So long ago' hasn't really come into it until this year(last year?). Until recently Ireland had no spent convictions legislation so this sort of thing would hang around for the rest of one's life. I defer to GM228 but also don't worry about prison in default, in and out very quickly (hours probably). Given GM228's post that's a very remote possibility by the looks.

[Highhorse] While I am a big fan of spent convictions legislation and frankly the current legislation should go much further, why anyone would think there would be a limitation on punishment for someone who simply buggers off is beyond me. Get the now grown up friend to continue their journey of no longer being a little bollix and contact a solicitor for advice, yes this is all going to cost money, but that's a fact of life. [/Highhorse]

GM228

shocka con wrote: »

Surely as it happened so long ago it shouldn't be prison time?

Something I overlooked (and possibly where ezra_pound was coming from) - as this was in 2004 a Committal Warrant may have been issued at the sime time of the fine (in case of default), a Committal Warrant does not expire, but there can be issues after a lenghty time. If no such warrant was issued then what I outlined earlier would apply before possible prison time.

ezra_pound

GM228 wrote: »

How do you come to that conclusion?

What I outlined is the legal requirement that a court must follow before handing down a prison sentence in default of payment of a fine.

Because the court hearing was in 2003 so the new law doesn't apply. The prison sentence in default of payment was handed out with the fine 13/14 years ago.

GM228

ezra_pound wrote: »

Because the court hearing was in 2003 so the new law doesn't apply. The prison sentence in default of payment was handed out with the fine 13/14 years ago.

Only if a Committal Warrant was issued at that time which was optional (but usually done). I realised you were talking about that based on the date as I showed in my last post, there could be issues with a 13 year old warrant however.

ezra_pound

GM228 wrote: »

Only if a Committal Warrant was issued at that time which was optional (but usually done). I realised you were talking about that based on the date as I showed in my last post, there could be issues with a 13 year old warrant however.

True. My point however is that there is no option to pay by installment or community service etc.

beechwood55

So re the question in the OP will this show up when Garda vetting is done? And if so, I presume it's up the employer whether or not it is considered enough of an issue not to allow the person to take up employment with them...

If it shows in the vetting. They won't get the job.

snowflaker

I hope it does

pilly

As far as I know Garda vetting only shows anything up to 8 years old unless it's violence or sex related?

pilly

snowflaker wrote:

I hope it does

Why is that? So some unknown person gets punished for something that happened 13-14 years ago? Get over yourself.

snowflaker

pilly wrote: »

Why is that? So some unknown person gets punished for something that happened 13-14 years ago? Get over yourself.

so people should be allowed walk away from punishment, and return with a clean slate? Hows that fair?

fawlty682

Old fines would be cancelled at this stage. The convictions are recorded of course but unlikely to have any effect now.

Owryan

pilly wrote: »

Why is that? So some unknown person gets punished for something that happened 13-14 years ago? Get over yourself.

Imo they had a chance to make amends by paying the fines. Instead they choose not to do so, it's only when those fines pose a risk to their future do they think about paying them.

What about the man from Kilkenny who was convicted of killing someone 20 odd years ago? Why should they be punished for something that happened 13-14 years ago?

pilly

Owryan wrote:

What about the man from Kilkenny who was convicted of killing someone 20 odd years ago? Why should they be punished for something that happened 13-14 years ago?

Big difference between killing someone and not paying a fine.

Anyway OP didn't open the thread for a moral judgement.

Owryan

pilly wrote: »

Big difference between killing someone and not paying a fine.

Anyway OP didn't open the thread for a moral judgement.

Never suggested they are even close to comparison. I was just pointing out that they both occured many moons ago yet to you one of those responsible should get off.

GM228

ezra_pound wrote: »

My point however is that there is no option to pay by installment or community service etc.

There is nothing in the 2014 Act, or the amended Court Rules which prevent it's application to a fine issued before the Act was commenced that I know of.

That said it's application may depend on a number of things such as how long ago the fine was issued, if a Committal Warrant was issued etc. I wonder are fines actually written off, I know they are in the UK after a certain amount of time if it is deemed they are unenforceable but not certain what the situation is here?


I believe in cases where a Committal Warrant was issued before commencement of the 2014 Act the principles of res judicata would most likely prevent the subsequent application of an attachment order or community service instead of the Committal Warrant, but if no such Warrant was issued then possibly the item isn't considered fully dealt with and I can't see any issues preventing the Acts application to fines from before it's commencement.

pilly wrote: »

As far as I know Garda vetting only shows anything up to 8 years old unless it's violence or sex related?

The 7 year exemption only applies to certain offences from the District Court and in most cases only if there is 1 conviction. Sections 14 to 19 of the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 1994 for example are not excluded.

Also the exemption is subject to compliance with the sentence imposed, so for example if a fine isn't paid the conviction does not gain the benefit of exclusion.

AryaStark

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

A lot of the time people can't or won't pay them, especially if they know that prisons are overcrowded and 5 days in default is actually going to be a cup of tea in reception and then sent on their way.

I have been there and it is not that nice! I would recommend people pay their fines.

When I owed money for a fine you were not allowed to make payments, it had to be all or nothing. I think that that has changed now and you can make the payment in instalments.