Why does Nitelink not run on BH Sunday?

cherryghost

As above, why in this day and age does Nitelink not run on a Sunday night into a Bank Holiday Monday? From my experience the town is buzzing on a Sunday night on a BH weekend. Makes no sense to me.

Dravokivich

They used to. They used to be Mon - Sat + B.Hol Sunday. They aren't covered by PSO. They started scaling the service back in 2008/2009. There might not be a big enough return on the cost.

AlekSmart

Dravokivich wrote: »

They used to. They used to be Mon - Sat + B.Hol Sunday. They aren't covered by PSO. They started scaling the service back in 2008/2009. There might not be a big enough return on the cost.

It may be of some interest to note,that as and from,last Friday (21st April) Dept of Social Protection Free Travel Scheme Passes,are valid on Nitelink services.

hungry hypno toad

AlekSmart wrote: »

It may be of some interest to note,that as and from,last Friday (21st April) Dept of Social Protection Free Travel Scheme Passes,are valid on Nitelink services.

This is ridiculous. The social welfare pays for the drink and chipper visit and a free bus home.

Isambard

i think what they actually pay for is a back-door subsidy for the fare paying passengers.

Mrs OBumble

The one in Co Galway does run on BH Sundays
... www.buslink.ie

Del2005

Isambard wrote: »

i think what they actually pay for is a back-door subsidy for the fare paying passengers.

So the free travel pass which comes out of general taxation is a subsidy to tax payers!

Until the complete roll out of the smart travel pass we don't even know if the free travel pass is covering its own costs never mind subsidising the people who actually pay it.

quadrifoglio verde

Isambard wrote: »

i think what they actually pay for is a back-door subsidy for the fare paying passengers.

Funny, Finnegan's can run a nightlink at 1am and 3am back to bray on Thursday, Friday, Saturday and bank holiday Sunday's without the need for any subsidies.

Anytime I've got the night link home to celbridge, it's been full. The last time people were standing. At 5.20 leap and 6.50 cash, that's over 100 people.
If Dublin bus can't run that bus, taking in over 600 for the journey, without needing subsidies, then it shouldn't be in the business of running buses.

boobycharlton

Seemingly because the folks in charge of public transport in the city never have cause to actually use it. So practical things like this never see the light of day. But sure look, don't the busses have wifi!

XPS_Zero

Del2005 wrote: »

So the free travel pass which comes out of general taxation is a subsidy to tax payers!

Until the complete roll out of the smart travel pass we don't even know if the free travel pass is covering its own costs never mind subsidizing the people who actually pay it.

It does cover it's own costs now. During the crash years, the govt froze funding so it wasn't keeping up with changing demographics (there has been an increase in the population that are disabled in some way in Ireland since the late 80s when it started at 1000 extra or so a month, and with the populations average age going up that's only meaning more seniors as well). So the increased number of people using FT passes combined with the freeze meant there was a DE-FACTO CIE subsidy to the scheme of a few % points but that's going to be wiped out with the recent increase that Ross and Varadkar agreed to for the next budget. There was a review of the scheme which suggested ditching spouse passes, changing the criteria for companion passes and said that the funding freeze was unsustainable, so it's been ended.

Studies of similar schemes elsewhere including one recently in the UK suggest such schemes are a net boon to the exchequer because of the savings in healthcare costs.

The smart travel pass is almost completely rolled out there aren't many paper passes left, the last of them will expire by default in a few months and anyone who has not got one will be carrying a scrap of paper that's not valid for travel.

hungry hypno toad wrote: »

This is ridiculous. The social welfare pays for the drink and chipper visit and a free bus home.

No...it won't pay for a drink or chipper visit. It will pay for the bus home all right.

Isambard wrote: »

i think what they actually pay for is a back-door subsidy for the fare paying passengers.

Del2005 wrote: »

So the free travel pass which comes out of general taxation is a subsidy to tax payers!

Until the complete roll out of the smart travel pass we don't even know if the free travel pass is covering its own costs never mind subsidising the people who actually pay it.

Well yes, Free Travel is a net subsidy to the companies that helps lower fares when you work it all out. If FT were eliminated (an academic concept that would never happen anyway) you would get a small bump in fare revenue as it's former users would still undertake essential journeys but most of the journeys they take now (in most cases to end isolation and being trapped at home by age or illness) they'd no longer bother so it's not a simple matter of measuring what the new smartcards read in travel and imagining those journeys as being full fare paying and saying that's what would happen. It would never work that way. However if it was eliminated the DSP is no longer paying any money to the transport companies so:

• Bus Eireann would loose 18% of it's revenue
• Dubling Bus would loose 11% of it's revenue
• IE would loose 8% of it's revenue
• Luas would loose 9% of it's revenue
• The Rural Transport Scheme buses would loose 10% of their revenue.

Take into account the bump you'd get in the former FT passengers paying for essential journeys like the odd hospital appointment, you'd still be loosing a lot of money which would = fare hikes for passengers generally. It would also mean increased costs for the health service which would mean money not spent on other areas because it's being sucked up by that.


As to it's being applied to the Nitelink there are two separate issues with that:

Firstly, you have disability allowance users, most of whom should not be out on the p1sser if they are that sick. But even there it's complicated because you're gonna have people who are recovering, almost back to normality who still have the pass (as you get to keep it during a transition back to work in some circumstances) and they're gonna be returning to normality which would include socializing. Most of the people on disability allowance would not be using a Nitelink. You won't get many people with serious mental health issues, cancer or brain trauma out clubbing at 2am.

Secondly, remember what makes up most FT passes: seniors. Nothing wrong with them going out for a drink in a late opening bar and taking a late bus home. Does it really make that big a difference if they take a bus at 2am instead of 11:30?

Or is it the extra fare that's the issue? When I first heard about it I thought no that makes no sense, but it's really not that different to other services, I mean other countries have 24 hour routes like in London they have their passes available on those routes...funny though Londons late night routes are not premium fare, they cost the same.

AlekSmart

XPS_Zero wrote: »

It does cover it's own costs now. During the crash years, the govt froze funding so it wasn't keeping up with changing demographics (there has been an increase in the population that are disabled in some way in Ireland since the late 80s when it started at 1000 extra or so a month, and with the populations average age going up that's only meaning more seniors as well). So the increased number of people using FT passes combined with the freeze meant there was a DE-FACTO CIE subsidy to the scheme of a few % points but that's going to be wiped out with the recent increase that Ross and Varadkar agreed to for the next budget. There was a review of the scheme which suggested ditching spouse passes, changing the criteria for companion passes and said that the funding freeze was unsustainable, so it's been ended.

Studies of similar schemes elsewhere including one recently in the UK suggest such schemes are a net boon to the exchequer because of the savings in healthcare costs.

The smart travel pass is almost completely rolled out there aren't many paper passes left, the last of them will expire by default in a few months and anyone who has not got one will be carrying a scrap of paper that's not valid for travel.

No...it won't pay for a drink or chipper visit. It will pay for the bus home all right.

Well yes, Free Travel is a net subsidy to the companies that helps lower fares when you work it all out. If FT were eliminated (an academic concept that would never happen anyway) you would get a small bump in fare revenue as it's former users would still undertake essential journeys but most of the journeys they take now (in most cases to end isolation and being trapped at home by age or illness) they'd no longer bother so it's not a simple matter of measuring what the new smartcards read in travel and imagining those journeys as being full fare paying and saying that's what would happen. It would never work that way. However if it was eliminated the DSP is no longer paying any money to the transport companies so:

• Bus Eireann would loose 18% of it's revenue
• Dubling Bus would loose 11% of it's revenue
• IE would loose 8% of it's revenue
• Luas would loose 9% of it's revenue
• The Rural Transport Scheme buses would loose 10% of their revenue.

Take into account the bump you'd get in the former FT passengers paying for essential journeys like the odd hospital appointment, you'd still be loosing a lot of money which would = fare hikes for passengers generally. It would also mean increased costs for the health service which would mean money not spent on other areas because it's being sucked up by that.

As to it's being applied to the Nitelink there are two separate issues with that:

Firstly, you have disability allowance users, most of whom should not be out on the p1sser if they are that sick. But even there it's complicated because you're gonna have people who are recovering, almost back to normality who still have the pass (as you get to keep it during a transition back to work in some circumstances) and they're gonna be returning to normality which would include socializing. Most of the people on disability allowance would not be using a Nitelink. You won't get many people with serious mental health issues, cancer or brain trauma out clubbing at 2am.

Secondly, remember what makes up most FT passes: seniors. Nothing wrong with them going out for a drink in a late opening bar and taking a late bus home. Does it really make that big a difference if they take a bus at 2am instead of 11:30?

Or is it the extra fare that's the issue? When I first heard about it I thought no that makes no sense, but it's really not that different to other services, I mean other countries have 24 hour routes like in London they have their passes available on those routes...funny though Londons late night routes are not premium fare, they cost the same.

Good post.

Three issues to consider.

1. The old style paper Free Travel document does not have an expiry date.
It is entirely up to the holder,or their reps,to return it upon death or change in circumstances.
The old style FTP was originally due to be withdrawn during Q 4 of 2016,however delays in the commencement of the PSC Chipped Card programme has seen that date reportedly pushed back to Q1 2018.

2. The DSP Free Travel Scheme is widely described as the Old Age Pension Pass and similar.
However the reality is that FTP scheme members of Pensionable Age comprise c. 55% of the Total number of pass holders.

The most recent statistics are from the 2014 DSP Annual Report.( Where they were reissued in the form of a G10 errata sheet following the discovery of some anomalies in the original report)

https://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Annual-SWS-Statistical-Information-Report-2014.aspx

Total FTP holders were 812,892.
Total FTP holders of Pensionable Age (Inc Partners/Surving Spouses) 476,971.

In comparison,there were 112,079 Disability Allowance recipients qualifying for FTP.

The FT Scheme is far broader in relit than merely Old Age Pension based.

3. It is worth noting that the 24 Hour Services currently in the formative phase will be charging Normal Fares,thus largely making the Nitelink premium service irrelevant ?

thomasj

AlekSmart wrote:

3. It is worth noting that the 24 Hour Services currently in the formative phase will be charging Normal Fares,thus largely making the Nitelink premium service irrelevant ?

Any word on when we could hear news on the 24 hour services?

XPS_Zero

AlekSmart wrote: »

Three issues to consider.

1. The old style paper Free Travel document does not have an expiry date.
It is entirely up to the holder,or their reps,to return it upon death or change in circumstances.
The old style FTP was originally due to be withdrawn during Q 4 of 2016,however delays in the commencement of the PSC Chipped Card programme has seen that date reportedly pushed back to Q1 2018.

I know they don't have an expiry date. But the validity and the expiry date are not one in the same. My card shows the expiry as 2023, but I don't actually get to keep using it until then, I keep it until the last of my disability is paid then it's no longer valid and the machines won't recognize it.

2. The DSP Free Travel Scheme is widely described as the Old Age Pension Pass and similar.
However the reality is that FTP scheme members of Pensionable Age comprise c. 55% of the Total number of pass holders.

The most recent statistics are from the 2014 DSP Annual Report.( Where they were reissued in the form of a G10 errata sheet following the discovery of some anomalies in the original report)

https://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Annual-SWS-Statistical-Information-Report-2014.aspx

Total FTP holders were 812,892.
Total FTP holders of Pensionable Age (Inc Partners/Surving Spouses) 476,971.

In comparison,there were 112,079 Disability Allowance recipients qualifying for FTP.

The FT Scheme is far broader in relit than merely Old Age Pension based.

Maybe too broad. I don't see any real need for spousal passes, and I can see from experience there are far more companion passes out there than are really needed. It's gotta be remembered that even among those who are disabled there are varying levels of disability, while most should not (or should not be able to) be out boozing at night it 's more complex than that.
They may be in recovery phase, they may be out and not drinking, it's not black and white.

3. It is worth noting that the 24 Hour Services currently in the formative phase will be charging Normal Fares,thus largely making the Nitelink premium service irrelevant ?

This is what I was wondering, there is no real reason why it should not apply to Nitelink when you really think about it. Airlink does not take it...but the Bus Eireann services servicing the airport do, and the Dublin Bus services serving the airport...even if you're talking Express services...X2 takes it, Aircoach takes it....

Jamie2k9

AlekSmart wrote: »

It may be of some interest to note,that as and from,last Friday (21st April) Dept of Social Protection Free Travel Scheme Passes,are valid on Nitelink services.

DSW blackmail CIE into wider acceptance for extra cash?

Collie D

Do Nitelink do pickups along the route or are all stops outside of the start point pickup only? Thinking of doing Darkness into Light in Malahide next week and I'm living on the route to Malahide

sdanseo

Two problems: unions and management.

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

The one in Co Galway does run on BH Sundays
... www.buslink.ie

Exactly, because they're private with no PSO, managed by motivated and sensible people, don't have an over-inflated structure of management (it could be two lads in an office and nothing else), and they don't have unions to worry about.

XPS_Zero

sdanseo wrote: »

Two problems: unions and management.



Exactly, because they're private with no PSO, managed by motivated and sensible people, don't have an over-inflated structure of management (it could be two lads in an office and nothing else), and they don't have unions to worry about.

Unions who see the source of money not as customers (you have to please to keep the money flowing) but the government which of course has endless money at it's disposal according to them.

They see the customers as an irritation or annoyance, not their no1 boss.

Losty Dublin

Collie D wrote: »

Do Nitelink do pickups along the route or are all stops outside of the start point pickup only? Thinking of doing Darkness into Light in Malahide next week and I'm living on the route to Malahide

Limited pick up points outwards on all routes. No service back into town, sorry to say.

XPS_Zero

Is there particular logic for doing it the way we do?

We could have the 145 routes and 46a routes at least half hour or hourly overnight. Why have special N versions of routes like the combo route 84N when we could just continue normal services?

Whats our aversion to Nitelink Rail? We've experimented with a few Luas and DART nitelinks but never put it on regularly, why? Is it an overtime thing?

Losty Dublin

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Is there particular logic for doing it the way we do?

We could have the 145 routes and 46a routes at least half hour or hourly overnight. Why have special N versions of routes like the combo route 84N when we could just continue normal services?

Whats our aversion to Nitelink Rail? We've experimented with a few Luas and DART nitelinks but never put it on regularly, why? Is it an overtime thing?

It's not the unions who are stopping things. Train drivers have worked nights for over 180 years now and they still work trains in the wee small hours as required, albeit far less often than was called on in the past. Inter City links depart earlier and arrive later these days then they used to while the DMU's have eased servicing and the need for deport shunters.

On buses, the unions agreed years ago to work last buses an hour later but the timetables have not been rolled out by the companies. There was a plan to bring in a late night 46A to the airport but it was scuppered by DoT heads on the pretext of it interfering with private buses.

pat ticket

Paid €15 for a cab home just now, a €5.20 nite link would have been much appreciated :rolleyes:

n97 mini

pat ticket wrote: »

Paid €15 for a cab home just now, a €5.20 nite link would have been much appreciated :rolleyes:

5.20 or 30 in a cab for me, so I just stay at home.

Really wish the 24/7 Bus Eireann (PSO) served my town!

Bray Head

sdanseo wrote: »

Two problems: unions and management.

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

The one in Co Galway does run on BH Sundays
...  www.buslink.ie

Exactly, because they're private with no PSO, managed by motivated and sensible people, don't have an over-inflated structure of management (it could be two lads in an office and nothing else), and they don't have unions to worry about.

Aircoach is a unionised company with services that operate 24 hours a day. 

The problem with DB is as much management as with unions. Unionisation is inevitable in the transport sector, but unions manage to develop most control when management is weak and does not achieve the respect of its workforce.

markpb

Bray Head wrote:

The problem with DB is as much management as with unions. Unionisation is inevitable in the transport sector, but unions manage to develop most control when management is weak and does not achieve the respect of its workforce.

What you've said is very true but you're ignoring one very factor. In the past, when unions interrupted service in a semistate company, politicians were often quick to write cheques to keep the public happy. This gave the unions an artificially elevated level of control over management. That doesn't need to happen every time, once or twice is enough to weaken management permanently.

This doesn't happen in private companies because the only people who can be influenced are the shareholders.

devnull

Losty Dublin wrote: »

There was a plan to bring in a late night 46A to the airport but it was scuppered by DoT heads on the pretext of it interfering with private buses.

Why is there a need to run a service to the airport from areas where there already is a service provided to such place by other operators at no cost to the taxpayer?

If they want to run an airport services as a night bus there are many other places that are cut off totally, as well as the option of simply not serving the airport at all.

Or was it DB seeking to 'flush out' the competition and only interested in such route because someone else was and proved it could work?

coylemj

Losty Dublin wrote: »

There was a plan to bring in a late night 46A to the airport but it was scuppered by DoT heads on the pretext of it interfering with private buses.

The 746 (DB double-decker) used to do the 46A route from Dun Laoghaire into town and out to the airport during regular DB hours, it was pulled several years ago. I can't see any demand for a 'late night' 46A service to the airport when Aircoach are already serving that route via their (24 x 7) services from Killiney and Greystones.

gizmo81

Some people visit hospitals, out of hours doctor services at night and can't afford a taxi.

hungry hypno toad wrote: »

This is ridiculous. The social welfare pays for the drink and chipper visit and a free bus home.

Losty Dublin

devnull wrote: »

Why is there a need to run a service to the airport from areas where there already is a service provided to such place by other operators at no cost to the taxpayer?

If they want to run an airport services as a night bus there are many other places that are cut off totally, as well as the option of simply not serving the airport at all.

Or was it DB seeking to 'flush out' the competition and only interested in such route because someone else was and proved it could work?

This was a good decade ago and was a slower and longer service bus unlike the limited stop Aircoach which serves other parts of the borough. Obviously DB did it to try scupper Aircoach, not to offer better service to the city's passengers :rolleyes:

n97 mini

gizmo81 wrote: »

Some people visit hospitals, out of hours doctor services at night and can't afford a taxi.

Not on Nitelinks. They don't pick up inbound and only at Westmoreland St and one or two other stops outbound.

gizmo81

So someone can't leave A&E at the Mater at 2am and get a nitelink home?

n97 mini wrote: »

Not on Nitelinks. They don't pick up inbound and only at Westmoreland St and one or two other stops outbound.

LXFlyer

devnull wrote: »

Why is there a need to run a service to the airport from areas where there already is a service provided to such place by other operators at no cost to the taxpayer?

If they want to run an airport services as a night bus there are many other places that are cut off totally, as well as the option of simply not serving the airport at all.

Or was it DB seeking to 'flush out' the competition and only interested in such route because someone else was and proved it could work?

This was a proposal by DB to convert the 746 route into 24 hour operation back in the late 1990s and not recently. It was under the DoT regime.

The Department of Transport funded the purchase of additional RVs with extra luggage racking specifically for the service, which were delivered. At the last minute (literally a week or two before operations were due to start) the licensing branch of the Department of Transport withdrew approval for the service. You could not make this kind of thing up.

Incidentally Nitelink is part of the PSO contract between Dublin Bus and the NTA. The contract does not include bank holiday Sunday nights. Any additional operations beyond the contract specification would require extra funding.

From my perspective I would prefer to see additional funding being used first and foremost to increase the frequencies on daytime routes where capacity is becoming a real issue, and then to develop a much enhanced network of orbital routes, and to improve the local network at Dublin Airport. Night time services would follow those in terms of priority in my book.

The bottom line on all of this is funding and the lack of it - the NTA can only provide improvements out of the funding it gets from the Department of Transport. Both of those organs have publically admitted that this is causing issues in terms of the services that can be provided, and the rate of delivery of improvements.