Why aren't traveller children placed in foster homes?

Chuchote

I think it would be a really good idea if Travellers were accepted and integrated into society.

By the way, there's no "they" and "them". They're not a single group acting as one. Some Travellers burn rubbish, lots don't. Some are irresponsible towards their kids; lots of Travellers are loving and caring, if perhaps stricter than the Irish norm, parents, grandparents, brothers and sisters and sons and daughters.

JupiterKid

Utterly unsavoury and unworkable idea.

D0NNELLY

VinLieger wrote: »

OP needs to read history books about australian aboriginals having their children foricbly removed for similar reasons

Think he's more a movie guy than a book guy, op watch Rabbit Proof Fence.

pilly

Okay, OP is going over the top suggesting ALL traveller children be placed foster care but I get somewhat the point they're trying to make.

Why are they not made abide by the same standards as we are? Why don't they get prosecuted for not sending their children to school?

There are some severe cases of neglect in traveller society, the same as there is in our own society but they're not dealt with in the same manner.

I have an example. When was daughter was younger it was suspected she had cystic fibrosis so she was admitted to Our Lady's Hospital. In the same room with her was a lovely traveller child of approximately 2 years of age. Not ONE person came to see that child in a full 2 weeks. She actually had Cystic Fibrosis and was very unwell. My daughter didn't thank god.

Whilst my daughter was there we were expected to bring her clean clothes every day, feed her and amuse her. Which is only right. This child was completely looked after by the nurses the whole time. Including dressing her. I gave them lots of clothes for her because they simply didn't have enough. I also spent time comforting her and playing with her because the nurses just didn't have the time.

When that 2 weeks was up, her father strolled in, picked her up and strolled back out.

Now why is that acceptable? That child will be traumatised for life from the experience of being dumped in a hospital with no-one visiting, never mind what way she was treated after that. It haunts me to this day.

I spoke to the nurses about it afterwards as I was really upset and her answer was simply "nothing we can do about it, we report them and they move".

_Brian

I really don't see a solution to the traveller conundrum.

Over the years the term traveller has developed from a group of people why travelled from town to town doing odd jobs and fixing pots and pans, it has now become about travelling to move away from social responsibilities and the law.

They have their ethnic status recognised now but what will that achieve ??

My broader experience of travellers has been poor, I've never met the majority who are honest hard working people. My experience has been of the "minority" who trash sites, dump rubbish, find themselves lost down private lanes looking round farmyards.

What do they want ??
Halting sites are systematically trashed and piled high with refuse, it's hard to pump money into more or newer sites when this happens.

My problem is that no matter how much we recognise and fund their ethnicity and lifestyle they have no respect for everyone else and no sense of a need to respect General laws of society. Maybe of the majority of good travellers would start to oust this "minority" of criminals among them things would be easier.

Respect and acceptance is a two way thing, why is it expected it be all one way.

wakka12

If all traveller children were taken to foster homes , then travellers would essentially die out

super_furry

wakka12 wrote: »

If all traveller children were taken to foster homes , then travellers would essentially die out

They have a word for that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide

Glenster

I don't know where that stops OP.

My parents would consider 90% of the Irish population to be essentially savages (Though they couch it in concern and PC phrasing).

From their point of view most kids aren't being raised right.

whisky_galore

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I wouldn't like my children discriminated against by some randomer because of my background, but that's how it is.

Kids are reasonably resilient. Growing up in a mobile home is only as inhibiting as we allow it to be.

If *we* didn't have this bias, it wouldn't make much difference whether a person were raised in a mobile home, a council flat, or a country estate.

Their infant mortality rate is 4 to 5 times that of the general population. Average lifespan is shorter.

Oh and here...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2652907/

(it's England, but since there's quite a bit of over and back should be relevant)

"Significant health inequalities exist between the Gypsy and Traveller population in England and their non‐Gypsy counterparts, even when compared with other socially deprived or excluded groups, and with other ethnic minorities."

I'm not sure what the solution is, but fostering isn't it.

Think the Traveller population in general should buck up and attempt living according to 21st century standards and norms instead of a degraded version of the 18th century.

Summer wind

I lived in a mobile home for 6 years when I was very young and I'm still alive:). Everyone is different there's no one size fits all.

Victor

JoeyPeeps wrote: »

Why aren't traveller children placed in foster homes?

Because: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Generations

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

jobbridge4life

Because it is a disgusting idea that should appall anyone with the vaguest knowledge of history or morality. Because it would represent a grossly inappropriate empowerment of the State. Why should we tolerate children being raised in racist homes? Or religious fundamental homes? The State should break up these families and place their children with people deserving of the chance of reproduction.

D0NNELLY

whisky_galore wrote: »

.

Think the Traveller population in general should buck up and attempt living according to 21st century standards and norms instead of a degraded version of the 18th century.

Like paying tax? If i could get away with paying it, i know i would!

whisky_galore

D0NNELLY wrote: »

Like paying tax? If i could get away with paying it, i know i would!

I think if Irish people could sneak out of paying taxes, settled or traveller, without fear of getting caught, they would do it....at the same time demanding all those services that taxes pay for.

No, I mean things that were part of Irish culture +100 or more years ago that are mostly consigned to the past in the settled community but still practiced by travellers; arranged/v.young marriages, faction fighting, children leaving school early with little formal education, high rates of domestic violence... etc.

endacl

JoeyPeeps wrote: »

I'm sure may of us wouldn't like our children raised on a halting site yet it is regarded as an acceptable standard of living for travellers. Why do we allow it? I think if more traveller children were placed in foster homes we would have far less problems.

Because that would be a terrible idea.

https://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/politics/a-guide-to-australias-stolen-generations#axzz4fAQGnk3i

endacl

whisky_galore wrote: »

I think if Irish people could sneak out of paying taxes, settled or traveller, without fear of getting caught, they would do it....at the same time demanding all those services that taxes pay for.

True dat!

A good chunk of my work is as self-employed. I pay very little tax on this income because it is in an area that I'd be very interested in if even if I weren't working at it professionally. I could pay loads of tax, but I spend that money on expensive toys and trips away instead. Because I can. If I miscalculate, and it looks like I'll have a tax bill, I write a cheque to a pension set up for the purpose of 'how much of my income can I keep for myself'.

Revenue get quite enough from my PAYE income, thanks all the same.

Widdershins

D0NNELLY wrote: »

Think he's more a movie guy than a book guy, op watch Rabbit Proof Fence.

That one's been criticised for being too biased, too. Maybe all films are, they just go for the drama and tug the heartstrings and reality doesn't sell cinema tickets.

Good questions are being asked like, are travellers subject to the same level of state intervention as settled people and do the abusive ones escape interference by moving away in a hurry.

The ones I knew made reference to social worker involvement with a couple of the other womens' families, so I don't think they are totally left to their own devices, but they were on a halting site at the time.

This raises an interesting question of what is an acceptable standard of living. I think too much emphasis could be placed on what I think someone called ''poshing-up'' of society and I think a lot of what people think of as the normal standard is more like luxuries and isn't really important for quality of life.

mad muffin

I think it's too late for that kind of stuff. 50 years ago sure. If the Irish started it a while back, when that kind of goings on was accepted then we'd be living in a different country today. As it stands we just need to get on with it and just try to avoid them… as much as their culture let's us anyway.

I Mean they are all around us, really. Going about and doing whatever they desire. All in the name of their culture.

They've recently descended upon our town an mass. It's made it somewhat uncomfortable to live here now. The towns descended into chaos. We are hoping they'll move on soon. There's not much here for them anyway. The pickings are slim.

I have already been verbally assaulted a couple of times. Once by some guys in a van calling me a bloody foreigner and that the bastard foreigners are ruining this country. As an Aussie married to an Irish I had to laugh. I mean, they're telling me that I'm ruining the country!! All because I told them to not let their dogs roam freely make it hard to walk our dogs.

Then another time, I saw a bunch of their kinds waking in town, and one of them was bleeding. I was just observing them and got a mouthful from the lovely darlings.

We've also had to setup a neighbourhood watch in our estate because of all the vandalism and break ins that have occurred since their decent.

Summer wind

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Yeah I know where you are coming from. I had two very good hardworking parents who did their absolute best for me and the rest of the family. We lived with no water or electricity and were very poor but the children in my family were 100% taken care of properly. I did drop out of school early too but only because I found a good job that I enjoyed doing. A lot of my non traveller school friends left school early too and started working before me. Domestic violence is also not just an issue with traveller families. In the town where I live when I was growing up there were a few non traveller men that were known for thumping their wives on a regular basis. Everyone knew about it but nothing was done because they were mainly considered well to do. One girl I went to school with whose family was very rich was in the papers lately because her dad sexually abused her for years. It's just I feel that people are all different and the idea that all children living on halting sites should be taken into care is beyond ridiculous.

Mrs OBumble

FWIW I saw a brochure the other week looking for Traveller families to foster children. So some of their kids must be put into short term care.

I know a few Travellers who are nothing like the picture painted here, btw.

Omackeral

I'm betting the OP saw this thread going a lot differently.

PARlance

If you're going to ask that question then it deserves the response, Why aren't most children placed in foster homes?

We've been doing a spectacularly bad job at it of late.

Loveinapril

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

FWIW I saw a brochure the other week looking for Traveller families to foster children. So some of their kids must be put into short term care.
.

Some of every ethnicity of children go into care.
It is obviously preferable for the child if they can go somewhere where the family are familiar with their culture but this can be rare. I know plenty of settled Irish families who foster traveller children (as well as Muslim, African, Eastern European etc.).

In reference to the OP, children are only taken into care as an absolute last resort. There needs to be clear risks, neglect or abuse for this to happen. Breaking up a family because they don't live in a house/ apartment is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard.

One eyed Jack

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Because it is a disgusting idea that should appall anyone with the vaguest knowledge of history or morality. Because it would represent a grossly inappropriate empowerment of the State. Why should we tolerate children being raised in racist homes? Or religious fundamental homes? The State should break up these families and place their children with people deserving of the chance of reproduction.

We already had a referendum to give the State exactly the means to do just that -


"In exceptional cases, where the parents, regardless of their marital status, fail in their duty towards their children to such an extent that the safety or welfare of any of their children is likely to be prejudicially affected, the State as guardian of the common good shall, by proportionate means as provided by law, endeavour to supply the place of the parents, but always with due regard for the natural and imprescriptible rights of the child."


Source: Thirty-first Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland

Widdershins

One eyed Jack wrote: »

We already had a referendum to give the State exactly the means to do just that -


"In exceptional cases, where the parents, regardless of their marital status, fail in their duty towards their children to such an extent that the safety or welfare of any of their children is likely to be prejudicially affected, the State as guardian of the common good shall, by proportionate means as provided by law, endeavour to supply the place of the parents, but always with due regard for the natural and imprescriptible rights of the child."


Source: Thirty-first Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland

That was a bit of a deceptive referendum, I think?

Glenster

Loveinapril wrote: »

Breaking up a family because they don't live in a house/ apartment is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard.

May parents would be like, "they live in an apartment? That's basically child abuse!"

Mrs OBumble

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

FWIW I saw a brochure the other week looking for Traveller families to foster children. So some of their kids must be put into short term care.

I know a few Travellers who are nothing like the picture painted here, btw.

There's a good lot of fostering of each others' kids goes on. It's worth a few quid if you do it right.

One eyed Jack

Widdershins wrote: »

That was a bit of a deceptive referendum, I think?

Absolutely people felt that it was deceptive alright, particularly for the reason as jobsbridge mentioned above that there were many people who weren't too keen on giving the State that much power.

But, the thing that most appalled me at the time was the low voter turnout -

"The Children's Referendum has been passed with the support of 58% of voters, with just three of the country's 43 constituencies rejecting the proposed amendment.

However only 33.5% of those eligible to vote yesterday did so, which was the lowest turnout since the referendum on bail in 1996."

Sam Kade

Ubbquittious wrote: »

I saw a great documentary there a while back about a fella who got stuck on mars and lived self-sufficient growing his own spuds and all. Maybe they can go and live over there instead

Did he take the bag of seed spuds with him? What did he eat while waiting for the spuds to grow?