The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

PopePalpatine

Nah, they've got a sugar daddy who made billions off mediocre pizza.

NuMarvel

A Little Pony wrote: »

Do the pro life side need more funds for the campaign?

Given the proliferation of professionally designed and printed flyers, posters, banners etc they have to hand, I'd guess not.

.......

This post has been deleted.

The Legend Of Kira

From tearing down pro life posters to getting pro life public meetings canceled now we re at the stage where pro life public meetings can,t be held without disruption, speaks volumes of their confidence when they need to shout people with opposing views down.

Billy86

Next thing you know they'll be trying to censor pro life publications!! Can you imagine the desperation of that!? :eek:

A Little Pony

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

From tearing down pro life posters to getting pro life public meetings canceled now we re at the stage where pro life public meetings can,t be held without disruption, speaks volumes of their confidence when they need to shout people with opposing views down.

They are running scared that pro life is going to win.

Billy86

Yep, I'd imagine the pro choice campaign is about every bit a terrified as the pro-SSM crowd were this time three years ago.

.......

This post has been deleted.

January

Oh well... pity for them.

If you don't think the anti-choice crowd do the exact same at pro-choice meetings then you're mistaken.

The Legend Of Kira

January wrote: »

Oh well... pity for them.

If you don't think the anti-choice crowd do the exact same at pro-choice meetings then you're mistaken.

How many public choice meetings have pro life groups disrupted over the course of last few years in Ireland ?

NuMarvel

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

From tearing down pro life posters to getting pro life public meetings canceled now we re at the stage where pro life public meetings can,t be held without disruption, speaks volumes of their confidence when they need to shout people with opposing views down.

This happened in the UK, so I'm not sure what the relevance is to a discussion about abortion laws in Ireland.

Besides which, with there being at least once confirmed instance of anti-repeal people here passing themselves off as pro choice, it's not entirely outside the bounds of possibility this was a stunt by other pro life people.

A Little Pony wrote: »

They are running scared that pro life is going to win.

Opinion polls are consistent in showing that the people want change. The only question is to what degree the change will be. And going by yesterday's poll, it looks like the people support changing it in line with the Citizens Assembly recommendations.

The pro life position, i.e. retain the 8th as is, has little chance of winning. Which is probably why they're throwing out red herrings like protests at meetings instead of putting forward cogent, rational arguments in favour of the 8th.

January

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

How many public choice meetings have pro life groups disrupted over the course of last few years in Ireland ?

In the last three months alone theyve had at least 3 prochoice meetings cancelled (douglas and kaldi Ashtown, one in a community centre in Tallaght and one in a community centre in the Dublin bay north constituency) and showed up to a meeting in captain Americas in blanchardstown (after they failed to get that one cancelled) and intimated attendees there.

I guess we're just not as shrill about events being cancelled as the anti choice side are

Hotblack Desiato

Poor Breda, she now only has her weekly Irish Times column and frequent appearances on RTE and Newstalk to fall back on now

#silenced

The Legend Of Kira

January wrote: »

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

How many public choice meetings have pro life groups disrupted over the course of last few years in Ireland ?

In the last three months alone theyve had at least 3 prochoice meetings cancelled (douglas and kaldi Ashtown, one in a community centre in Tallaght and one in a community centre in the Dublin bay north constituency) and showed up to a meeting in captain Americas in blanchardstown (after they failed to get that one cancelled) and intimated attendees there.

I guess we're just not as shrill about events being cancelled as the anti choice side are

The Irish times reported about some choice meetings being canceled, not because of venues being pressured but because of venues adopting a " no politics " policy regarding political meetings being held in their venue- for the record I disagree with this as long as lawful group are willing to pay out their own money to hire a venue for an hour or two to hold a political meeting I don,t think a venue should be allowed refuse.

Hotblack Desiato

Funny how they'd allowed that councillor hold meetings there for years, seems politics is OK but abortion is 'political' :rolleyes:

The Legend Of Kira

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Funny how they'd allowed that councillor hold meetings there for years, seems politics is OK but abortion is 'political' :rolleyes:

Which councillor are you referring to ?

The Legend Of Kira

I have only heard this week- about what happened in Queensland/Australia regarding babies surviving late term abortions being left to die.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-06-15/babies-of-late-terminations-left-to-die-without-care/7512618

This was even discussed on Australian political shows, ( see link ) .

https://www.facebook.com/abcqanda/videos/10153496754451831/?hc_ref=ARQIwuuKZkfq_M5QdVgSSYnX0VhBys7i50c4BfGpWmGsW8iPlX8IByxK3c-rQZByGsk&pnref=story

Here is my question to anyone who believes in a full repeal of the 8th/abortion without any restrictions, ( Q )  when in cases a baby survives a late term abortion, what legal rights ( if any ) should that baby have under the law in your opinion ?

The Legend Of Kira

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

How many public choice meetings have pro life groups disrupted over the course of last few years in Ireland ?

Was this in Ireland?

uptherebels

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

I have only heard this week- about what happened in Queensland/Australia regarding babies surviving late term abortions being left to die.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-06-15/babies-of-late-terminations-left-to-die-without-care/7512618

This was even discussed on Australian political shows, ( see link ) .

https://www.facebook.com/abcqanda/videos/10153496754451831/?hc_ref=ARQIwuuKZkfq_M5QdVgSSYnX0VhBys7i50c4BfGpWmGsW8iPlX8IByxK3c-rQZByGsk&pnref=story

Here is my question to anyone who believes in a full repeal of the 8th/abortion without any restrictions, ( Q )  when in cases a baby survives a late term abortion, what legal rights ( if any ) should that baby have under the law in your opinion ?

you seem to be confusing a foetus that still has "life signs" immediately after an abortion has been performed and a living baby being allowed to die.

you missed this at the end of the article -This copy has been modified to remove a statement that babies were "not rendered care and allowed to die"

which was replaced with
only to later die after not receiving life-saving treatment.

article seems deliberately vague on actual information

gctest50

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

I have only heard this week- about what happened in Queensland/Australia regarding babies surviving late term abortions being left to die.
.....

Fatal Fetal Abnormalities would mean they would die at birth or very shortly afterwards

Like what these two were unfortunately faced with :

“I’m just a mom who didn’t want to put my kid through pain.”
― Heather, 45

I was kind of a late start mom when I got pregnant 10 years ago. My husband and I didn’t have any trouble getting pregnant, and all of our early screenings came back fine. Everything was kind of ‘happy happy, joy joy.’ There was no reason to worry. I had good prenatal care. I did all of the things you’re supposed to do.

Because I was over 35, I was eligible for a level-2 ultrasound, which is basically a much more detailed ultrasound at the 20-week mark. I went into it thinking everything was going to be fine and we were going to hear if we were having a boy or a girl. But then the sonographer got quiet part way through. I distinctly remember getting this weird feeling in my belly at that point. When she told us the doctor would be in to see us soon and left, I told my husband that something was wrong. He was kind of like, ‘What are you talking about? Everything’s fine.’ But I knew. That woman was not OK when she left the room.

The doctor came in and said, ‘I don’t really know how to tell you this, but we’ve detected a pretty devastating abnormality.’ It’s called Alobar Holoprosencephaly. Basically what it means is that the brain did not divide into two hemispheres. It’s a spectrum disorder, and this was the worst form. Everything just kind of fuses together in the middle. The child would have had one cyclopic eye and a proboscis, no nose. There was no chance of survival. They were stunned that my pregnancy had even made it that far. Normally, people miscarry. They knew that if I carried to term, the baby would not survive, but they weren’t sure what would happen with me. There was a chance I could have a late-term miscarriage, in which case my life would have been in danger, too.

They gave us our options, but I knew right away that I wanted to have a D&E [a surgical abortion]. I knew from the minute my husband and I got the news that I was not going to bring a child into the world that was going to die in my arms. If I had chosen to induce labor, I would have had to have been on the labor and delivery floor, and I didn’t want to be that woman with the little red tag on the door. I didn’t feel like I’d be able to recover from that. They referred me to a doctor [who performs late abortions] and who I call my angel of mercy.

There was a nine-day gap between the diagnosis and when the first part of the D&E started. That was nine days of feeling movement, and of showing, and having people ask about my pregnancy. Then it was a three-day procedure. First, they give you something to dilate your cervix, and then they send you home. It was Halloween, and I had to sit there while I was cramping and spotting and listen to trick-or-treaters. I pretty much hate Halloween.

I went back two days later, and honestly, it was pretty horrible. If the physician hadn’t been so wonderful, I don’t think I would have had the strength to get through it. He held my hand and told me it was going to be cold in the OR, and noisy and bright, and then I would drift off to sleep. When I woke up, I was not pregnant anymore. The awful thing, though, is that you’ve still got to deal with your milk coming in, and your womb shrinking and cramping and bleeding ― and you don’t have a newborn in your arms. At first, I didn’t want to know the baby’s gender, but then five years ago I finally asked if it was a boy or girl. It was a boy.

People in the far right like to try and paint you as a heartless baby killer, but I don’t think anyone knows what it feels like to have to let go like that. I’ve always been pro-choice, but it never occurred to me that I’d ever need to have an abortion, and certainly not at age 35 with a husband and a child who was very much wanted. I’m not any kind of genius mom here, but I do know that mothers will do anything they can to take away their child’s pain. And I’m just a mom who didn’t want to put my kid through pain. I have sadness, but I have no regrets.


* * * * *

“We knew that if he lived, it would be a life of suffering, period. No doctors were saying, ‘Well... there’s a tiny chance.’”
― Lindsay Bubar, 34

In July 2013, my husband and I found out that I was pregnant with our first child. It was a planned pregnancy and we were incredibly excited. At a prenatal checkup, they told us it looked like we were having a boy, but that they’d confirm at our 20-week anatomy scan.

In the middle of that appointment, I realized something was very wrong. When the doctor got to our son’s brain, he kept measuring it over and over again. He told us it looked like something was off. They got us in for an MRI the same day. I’d say we definitely understood the gravity of what has happening, particularly because they were getting us into appointments so fast. Based on the MRI, they suspected hydrocephaly [a severe condition sometimes known as “water on the brain”].

The next day, we got into a world-renowned specialist. He’s the kind of guy who, if you get news like ours, you fly halfway across the country to see because he does in utero brain surgery, and he just happened to be right where we live. He told us our son had a malignant brain tumor with a likely related case of hydrocephaly. I wasn’t far along enough to try and deliver him and have the doctor attempt brain surgery, and in utero surgery wasn’t an option. He told us that if I did carry to term, our son would either die at birth or a few hours later go into immediate surgery where he’d have only a 50-50 chance of living. And if he did live, it would be a life of suffering without being able to see, hear, talk or smile. Even given all that, he suggested we wait about a week to get another MRI to re, re, re-confirm that everything they were seeing was right. We definitely knew what was happening, but we also did keep saying to each other, “We’re not there yet.” Every step of the way, we held out that littlest bit of hope.

We had the last MRI, which was pretty awful. The machine was so loud and I think the baby did not like it. I could feel him squirming around, like he was trying to get away from the noise. That MRI confirmed everything.

At that point, it didn’t feel like it was a decision any more. It wasn’t like we had to consider odds, like, ‘What if?’ We knew that if he lived, it would be a life of suffering, period. No doctors were saying, ‘Well...there’s a tiny chance.’ We felt really grateful for that. I can’t imagine how difficult and complex the choice is for families where there’s more uncertainty.

I had a D&E and for me, it was a three-day procedure. My doctor was one of two in the area who provide late-term abortions, five minutes from our house. It is not lost on me how fortunate we were.

The people at the hospital clinic were incredibly empathetic. They explained it to me very thoroughly, which was comforting and hard. I knew that what was happening the first and second day was preparation for the procedure on the third day. My memory of it is a little fuzzy, partly because I was under anesthesia and then on pain medications.

My husband and I both work in politics, and we watched the debates. I was glad they asked a question about abortion, but then I was so horrified by what Trump said and so personally hurt. I had that moment that undocumented immigrants and sexual assault survivors (and the list goes on and on) have had. There he was saying that my husband and I were inhumane butchers who had our baby ripped out of me.

I think that what is important to note is that everyone’s experience is so different. My husband and I had a late-term abortion because our baby had a malignant brain tumor, and almost no one has that. It’s so, so, so rare. The reasons why people chose to get abortions at any stage are different and unique to them. That’s why I think that trying to legislate this choice is so dangerous.
These accounts have been edited and condensed

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/donald-trump-heres-what-its-really-like-to-get-a-late-term-abortion_us_580a179ee4b02444efa2bf58

.

The Legend Of Kira

uptherebels wrote: »

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

I have only heard this week- about what happened in Queensland/Australia regarding babies surviving late term abortions being left to die.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-06-15/babies-of-late-terminations-left-to-die-without-care/7512618

This was even discussed on Australian political shows, ( see link ) .

https://www.facebook.com/abcqanda/videos/10153496754451831/?hc_ref=ARQIwuuKZkfq_M5QdVgSSYnX0VhBys7i50c4BfGpWmGsW8iPlX8IByxK3c-rQZByGsk&pnref=story

Here is my question to anyone who believes in a full repeal of the 8th/abortion without any restrictions, ( Q )  when in cases a baby survives a late term abortion, what legal rights ( if any ) should that baby have under the law in your opinion ?

you seem to be confusing a foetus that still has "life signs" immediately after an abortion has been performed and a living baby being allowed to die.

you missed this at the end of the article -This copy has been modified to remove a statement that babies were "not rendered care and allowed to die"

which was replaced with
only to later die after not receiving life-saving treatment.

article seems deliberately vague on actual information

The Queensland story has been in other media outlets too.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3642611/At-27-babies-survived-late-term-abortions-Queensland-year-left-die.html

https://www.northernstar.com.au/news/27-qld-babies-born-alive-after-failed-abortions-le/3044778/

These were 27 obviously failed abortions, as the 27 babies survived the abortions, likewise I heard about this case that happened in Poland after watching Maria,s speech at the citizens assembly 6.10 into the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4j08-_6j_U

After I heard Maria mention the case from Poland I google searched what she said & found the story in different media outlets.

http://theliberal.ie/a-national-abortion-debate-has-re-opened-in-poland-after-a-down-syndrome-baby-born-alive-during-an-abortion-dies-unaided-screaming-for-an-hour/

http://www.wnd.com/2016/03/baby-born-alive-after-failed-abortion-left-to-die/

In reference to the cases of failed abortions that happened in Poland + Queensland, anyone who,s in favour of abortion without restrictions .

Q )  when in cases a baby survives a failed abortion, what legal rights ( if any ) should that baby have under the law in your opinion ?

The Legend Of Kira

gctest50 wrote: »

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

I have only heard this week- about what happened in Queensland/Australia regarding babies surviving late term abortions being left to die.
.....

Fatal Fetal Abnormalities would mean they would die at birth or very shortly afterwards

Like what these two were  unfortunately faced with :

“I’m just a mom who didn’t want to put my kid through pain.”
― Heather, 45

I was kind of a late start mom when I got pregnant 10 years ago. My husband and I didn’t have any trouble getting pregnant, and all of our early screenings came back fine. Everything was kind of ‘happy happy, joy joy.’ There was no reason to worry. I had good prenatal care. I did all of the things you’re supposed to do.

Because I was over 35, I was eligible for a level-2 ultrasound, which is basically a much more detailed ultrasound at the 20-week mark. I went into it thinking everything was going to be fine and we were going to hear if we were having a boy or a girl. But then the sonographer got quiet part way through. I distinctly remember getting this weird feeling in my belly at that point. When she told us the doctor would be in to see us soon and left, I told my husband that something was wrong. He was kind of like, ‘What are you talking about? Everything’s fine.’ But I knew. That woman was not OK when she left the room.

The doctor came in and said, ‘I don’t really know how to tell you this, but we’ve detected a pretty devastating abnormality.’ It’s called Alobar Holoprosencephaly. Basically what it means is that the brain did not divide into two hemispheres. It’s a spectrum disorder, and this was the worst form. Everything just kind of fuses together in the middle. The child would have had one cyclopic eye and a proboscis, no nose. There was no chance of survival. They were stunned that my pregnancy had even made it that far. Normally, people miscarry. They knew that if I carried to term, the baby would not survive, but they weren’t sure what would happen with me. There was a chance I could have a late-term miscarriage, in which case my life would have been in danger, too.

They gave us our options, but I knew right away that I wanted to have a D&E [a surgical abortion]. I knew from the minute my husband and I got the news that I was not going to bring a child into the world that was going to die in my arms. If I had chosen to induce labor, I would have had to have been on the labor and delivery floor, and I didn’t want to be that woman with the little red tag on the door. I didn’t feel like I’d be able to recover from that. They referred me to a doctor [who performs late abortions] and who I call my angel of mercy.

There was a nine-day gap between the diagnosis and when the first part of the D&E started. That was nine days of feeling movement, and of showing, and having people ask about my pregnancy. Then it was a three-day procedure. First, they give you something to dilate your cervix, and then they send you home. It was Halloween, and I had to sit there while I was cramping and spotting and listen to trick-or-treaters. I pretty much hate Halloween.

I went back two days later, and honestly, it was pretty horrible. If the physician hadn’t been so wonderful, I don’t think I would have had the strength to get through it. He held my hand and told me it was going to be cold in the OR, and noisy and bright, and then I would drift off to sleep. When I woke up, I was not pregnant anymore. The awful thing, though, is that you’ve still got to deal with your milk coming in, and your womb shrinking and cramping and bleeding ― and you don’t have a newborn in your arms. At first, I didn’t want to know the baby’s gender, but then five years ago I finally asked if it was a boy or girl. It was a boy.

People in the far right like to try and paint you as a heartless baby killer, but I don’t think anyone knows what it feels like to have to let go like that. I’ve always been pro-choice, but it never occurred to me that I’d ever need to have an abortion, and certainly not at age 35 with a husband and a child who was very much wanted. I’m not any kind of genius mom here, but I do know that mothers will do anything they can to take away their child’s pain. And I’m just a mom who didn’t want to put my kid through pain. I have sadness, but I have no regrets.


* * * * *

“We knew that if he lived, it would be a life of suffering, period. No doctors were saying, ‘Well... there’s a tiny chance.’”
― Lindsay Bubar, 34

In July 2013, my husband and I found out that I was pregnant with our first child. It was a planned pregnancy and we were incredibly excited. At a prenatal checkup, they told us it looked like we were having a boy, but that they’d confirm at our 20-week anatomy scan.

In the middle of that appointment, I realized something was very wrong. When the doctor got to our son’s brain, he kept measuring it over and over again. He told us it looked like something was off. They got us in for an MRI the same day. I’d say we definitely understood the gravity of what has happening, particularly because they were getting us into appointments so fast. Based on the MRI, they suspected hydrocephaly [a severe condition sometimes known as “water on the brain”].

The next day, we got into a world-renowned specialist. He’s the kind of guy who, if you get news like ours, you fly halfway across the country to see because he does in utero brain surgery, and he just happened to be right where we live. He told us our son had a malignant brain tumor with a likely related case of hydrocephaly. I wasn’t far along enough to try and deliver him and have the doctor attempt brain surgery, and in utero surgery wasn’t an option. He told us that if I did carry to term, our son would either die at birth or a few hours later go into immediate surgery where he’d have only a 50-50 chance of living. And if he did live, it would be a life of suffering without being able to see, hear, talk or smile. Even given all that, he suggested we wait about a week to get another MRI to re, re, re-confirm that everything they were seeing was right. We definitely knew what was happening, but we also did keep saying to each other, “We’re not there yet.” Every step of the way, we held out that littlest bit of hope.

We had the last MRI, which was pretty awful. The machine was so loud and I think the baby did not like it. I could feel him squirming around, like he was trying to get away from the noise. That MRI confirmed everything.

At that point, it didn’t feel like it was a decision any more. It wasn’t like we had to consider odds, like, ‘What if?’ We knew that if he lived, it would be a life of suffering, period. No doctors were saying, ‘Well...there’s a tiny chance.’ We felt really grateful for that. I can’t imagine how difficult and complex the choice is for families where there’s more uncertainty.

I had a D&E and for me, it was a three-day procedure. My doctor was one of two in the area who provide late-term abortions, five minutes from our house. It is not lost on me how fortunate we were.

The people at the hospital clinic were incredibly empathetic. They explained it to me very thoroughly, which was comforting and hard. I knew that what was happening the first and second day was preparation for the procedure on the third day. My memory of it is a little fuzzy, partly because I was under anesthesia and then on pain medications.

My husband and I both work in politics, and we watched the debates. I was glad they asked a question about abortion, but then I was so horrified by what Trump said and so personally hurt. I had that moment that undocumented immigrants and sexual assault survivors (and the list goes on and on) have had. There he was saying that my husband and I were inhumane butchers who had our baby ripped out of me.

I think that what is important to note is that everyone’s experience is so different. My husband and I had a late-term abortion because our baby had a malignant brain tumor, and almost no one has that. It’s so, so, so rare. The reasons why people chose to get abortions at any stage are different and unique to them. That’s why I think that trying to legislate this choice is so dangerous.
These accounts have been edited and condensed

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/donald-trump-heres-what-its-really-like-to-get-a-late-term-abortion_us_580a179ee4b02444efa2bf58

.

In cases in where there is no chance of survival of life outside the womb my heart goes out to anyone faced in that situation, very different vs cases in which the baby has survived the abortion & is still alive.

The Legend Of Kira

Deleted User wrote: »

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

How many public choice meetings have pro life groups disrupted over the course of last few years in Ireland ?

Was this in Ireland?

It happened in Oxford, the relevance being it was a meeting on the topic of Ireland,s abortion laws with some speakers from Ireland .

gctest50

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

These were 27 obviously failed abortions, as the 27 babies survived the abortions............

They may not have been as viable as you think

Fatal Fetal Abnormalities are the reason for late term abortions usually


They are probably not following the recommendations in other countries :

“When performing an abortion on a woman who is 21 weeks pregnant or more, in addition and prior to following general procedures, we are instructed to inject digoxin or potassium chloride into the fetus or the amniotic sac"

I had a shot to stop my angel's heart, though I am not sure exactly what it was. Honestly, I do not remember much of the shot. It was given prior to the induction so I was a mess. I do remember asking if the baby would feel any pain, and I was told no. He would just go to sleep.

****************************


I had an injection before delivery about 2 years ago. It was done at the perinatologist's office and we paid out of pocket (insurance wouldn't cover so it was about $500). We had to go to the doctor's office 24 hours prior to the procedure to receive a book about abortion (I'm in Texas).
Prior to the procedure, the doctor talked to us about our decision and was obligated to tell us some things: she would not take any measures to save the baby, I could receive child support, etc. She performed an U/S (ultrasound) and asked us if he wanted to see anything and I told her that I wanted to see the baby. She put the image up on the screen and gave us some 3D pictures to take home.

They put iodine all over my stomach and gave me a shot of lidocaine before she performed the injection. She left the needles in my stomach for a few minutes (which she told us that she would do) in order to make sure that the heart had stopped. She let us know when it was done and the nurse cleaned me up.

We paid for the procedure after talking to the doctor about details for the delivery and left the office. They scheduled the procedure for 5 p.m. so that we would be the only ones in the office. It was, of course, a very emotional experience.


https://community.babycenter.com/post/a27098853/kcl_injection_before_termination

NuMarvel

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

I have only heard this week- about what happened in Queensland/Australia regarding babies surviving late term abortions being left to die.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-06-15/babies-of-late-terminations-left-to-die-without-care/7512618

This was even discussed on Australian political shows, ( see link ) .

https://www.facebook.com/abcqanda/videos/10153496754451831/?hc_ref=ARQIwuuKZkfq_M5QdVgSSYnX0VhBys7i50c4BfGpWmGsW8iPlX8IByxK3c-rQZByGsk&pnref=story

Here is my question to anyone who believes in a full repeal of the 8th/abortion without any restrictions, ( Q )  when in cases a baby survives a late term abortion, what legal rights ( if any ) should that baby have under the law in your opinion ?

I think we should do the same as in Queensland which is, to quote the Queensland Health Minister from the article:

"Care of a baby following birth is individualised to the specific circumstances, and informed by the choices of the family. In line with clinical guidelines, a range of pre and post terminal cares are provided.

"These may include physiological support of the baby to relieve potential for suffering, and psychological support for families including bereavement counselling."

BTW, you seem confused about abortion laws in Queensland. Abortion without restriction isn't available there. Instead it's only lawful to prevent serious danger to the woman's physical or mental health. And I think it's fair to assume that if a woman is having an abortion after the halfway point of her pregnancy, then there's a serious danger to her health.

And there's no basis for your assumption that repeal of the 8th equates to abortion without restriction. Ireland didn't have abortion without restriction before the 8th was introduced; quite the opposite what with us having an absolute ban on abortion since 1861. So there's no reason to think that repeal of the 8th would lead to that situation. The most that would happen is that politicians would legislate in line with the Citizens Assembly proposals, which certainly couldn't be described as without restrictions.

NuMarvel

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

As an aside, it's interesting how both speakers have links with conservative Christian groups. Breda O'Brien is probably well known as a patron of the Iona Institute, and Lorcan Price is a director, alongside Ronán Mullen and others, of Catholic Comment according to this press release.

nozzferrahhtoo

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

Queensland, anyone who,s in favour of abortion without restrictions .

I am not sure what your point here actually is however.

Firstly, repealing the 8th has very little at this time to do with late term abortions.

Second, of all the many MANY posts I have read on boards.ie on the subject of abortion I have only come to be aware of three (and one of them is pretty iffy) people who are advocating for abortion without any restrictions. One of them I am not sure even holds that position, one of them has given NO basis for that position, and the final one has given little more than pretending "Hilary Clinton agrees with me" as an argument for that position. So who is it you are really addressing any of this to?

Third, the near totality of abortions by choice are done in or before week 16. "Late" abortions tend to predominantly (with few cherry picked media exceptions around the entire globe) for medical reasons and necessity. And sometimes the goal is to terminate the pregnancy, not the baby, if at all possible. Quite often the baby is expected to die anyway, regardless of their temporarily having survived the termination of the pregnancy.

So really I can not extract much from your post other than a good argument for examining and improving our processes so that whatever the goal and intention of a given procedure actually is at the time...... we achieve it better without "failures".

But given the number of procedures, by choice or medical necessity, going on in the world at the moment.... let alone the total number of them historically........ that you can find a TWO DIGIT number of what YOU deem to be "failures" is not exactly a number of any significance.

The Legend Of Kira

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

It happened in Oxford, the relevance being it was a meeting on the topic of Ireland,s abortion laws with some speakers from Ireland .

The relevance of my question was that you asked "in Ireland"

NuMarvel

NuMarvel wrote: »

As an aside, it's interesting how both speakers have links with conservative Christian groups. Breda O'Brien is probably well known as a patron of the Iona Institute, and Lorcan Price is a director, alongside Ronán Mullen and others, of Catholic Comment according to this press release.

HA

They're shameless.

Explains why this was happening off-site though. Set up, run and debated by one side and no doubt portrayed to the foreign audience as representative of the debate.

In fact, the most troublesome aspect of these discussions are the lack of proportional representation in the media. As usual, the same five or six extreme faces on either side get the mic.

One eyed Jack

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Second, of all the many MANY posts I have read on boards.ie on the subject of abortion I have only come to be aware of three (and one of them is pretty iffy) people who are advocating for abortion without any restrictions. One of them I am not sure even holds that position, one of them has given NO basis for that position, and the final one has given little more than pretending "Hilary Clinton agrees with me" as an argument for that position. So who is it you are really addressing any of this to?

Trolling much?

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Well, yes, that's rather stating the obvious. However, the UN considers it a violation of women's rights, and has criticised Ireland continuously for it's position on abortion -

Abortion

The Committee reiterates its previous concern regarding the highly restrictive circumstances under which women can lawfully have an abortion in the State party owing to article 40.3.3 of the Constitution and its strict interpretation by the State party. In particular, it is concerned at: (a) the criminalization of abortion under section 22 of the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act 2013, including in cases of rape, incest, fatal foetal abnormality and serious risks to the health of the mother, which may lead to up to 14 years of imprisonment, except in cases that constitute a “real and substantive risk” to the life of a pregnant woman; (b) the lack of legal and procedural clarity concerning what constitutes “real and substantive risk” to the life, as opposed to the health, of the pregnant woman; (c) the requirement of excessive degree of scrutiny by medical professionals for pregnant and suicidal women leading to further mental distress; (d) the discriminatory impact of the Act on women who are unable to travel abroad to seek abortions; (e) the strict restrictions on the channels via which information on crisis pregnancy options may be provided to women and theimposition of criminal sanctions on health-care providers who refer women to abortion services outside the State party under the Regulation of Information (Services Outside the State For Termination of Pregnancies) Act, 1995; and (f) the severe mental suffering caused by the denial of abortion services to women seeking abortions due to rape, incest, fatal foetal abnormality or serious risks to health (arts. 2, 3, 6, 7, 17, 19 and 26).


Source: Concluding observations on the fourth periodic report of Ireland, International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights


The only person in a position to determine the correct answer for themselves, is the woman who is pregnant, who would rather she wasn't, and doesn't want to continue the pregnancy, and doesn't want to give birth, therefore under Article 2 and Article 3, women have the right to seek a termination of their pregnancy, though let's be clear - nobody is advocating murder here. That would be the unlawful killing of a human being, the unlawful taking of a human life even, if you prefer? The key word there is unlawful.

And if there are no term limits on when she can choose, then she can still choose within the limits of the law, and she is even more bound by the biological limits of human gestation - generally around the 40 week mark, before she gives birth. Then of course abortion is no longer an option, and we've already discounted the unlawful killing, the unlawful taking of the life of another human being.

We haven't asked Irish society to vote on anything yet, well, I suppose we did with previous referenda regarding the issue of abortion, and that's how we've ended up with the ****ty, half arsed legislation we have now which is wholly unfit for purpose (though I suppose that depends on what purpose it was supposed to achieve). However, I wouldn't refer to any legislation on abortion as either liberal or conservative, it's irrelevant. What matters is really the point that either you're willing to trust women enough to allow them to make decisions regarding their own welfare, or you're not, and if you're only going to allow them to make decisions for their own welfare up to a certain point, then you really don't trust women at all. Are you prepared to live with the idea that we can still force women to remain pregnant against their will, and force them to give birth against their will, then take no responsibility for the outcomes of your decisions for their welfare?

I'm not.