Irish Rail- Annual Ticket Confiscated

AnnieM240

I'm not sure if this has happened to anyone else but I'm looking fro some advise. ( Sorry this is a long post)

Myself and my husband were travelling on the 17:31 train from Pearce to Naas on Tuesday last week and missed our stop so ended up in Newbridge ( he fell asleep and I was engrossed in a journal.ie article) When we got off the train there was about 10 revenue officers on the platform checking tickets and as both of us have short hop tickets to Naas we explained what had happened but were advised we would still be fined E116.35 ( E100 on the stop fine plus E16.35 the difference between Naas and Newbridge) He then took our tickets from us and advised they would be sent to the Connelly office and we would need to call and pay the fine to get them back.

I called on Thursday to pay this as it was our fault we missed our stop but was told my fine was now E1600 and my husbands E1800, when I asked why they said it was because we had an address in Newbridge andthe presumption is that we have always got off at Newbridge train station sine we both reveived our tickets in January 2017. This is not the case, we drive to Naas each morning, park at a friends house and get the train from Naas train station. We don't tag on as our tickets are paid in full via our jobs ( we probably should be tagging on) and there is no barrier from the large car park where we walk through into the station in Naas.

My question is can they really fine us these amounts just due to the fact we have an address in Newbridge? We are 100% willing to take responsibility for the E116.35 each as we did miss our stop but can Irish Rail really just presume this?

CIARAN_BOYLE

They can presume, you can make your case otherwise.
Always tag on its your evidence that you are in the right in cases like this. Its a civil case so the balance of probabilities apply.
They will probably fold if you push at them.

AnnieM240

Thanks , We haven't been tagging on as you can just walk onto the platform in the Naas station due to there not being a barrier. Always tag on in Dublin as you have to but our tickets are paid in full for the year so didn't really think it was a big deal to not tag on or off in Naas. This will probably come back to bite me now.

schemingbohemia

Well it doesn't help that you never tag on. Probably too late but have you asked them for CCTV footage of you tagging on in Naas? You could put in a Data Protection request to find footage of you tagging on in Naas. If they can't or won't provide it that should help you in the court case should you chose to fight it.

punisher5112

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Well it doesn't help that you never tag on. Probably too late but have you asked them for CCTV footage of you tagging on in Naas? You could put in a Data Protection request to find footage of you tagging on in Naas. If they can't or won't provide it that should help you in the court case should you chose to fight it.

They never tag on though???

AnnieM240

No it didn't help- but to be honest with there being no barrier and then the barrier they do have always being open a lot of people don't tag on or off in Naas when they have an annual ticket. Our solicitor is going to request this so I hope they release this to us.

Mrs OBumble

Why would you drive to Naas when you could just get on in Newbridge?

minikin

Is it possible to board the train in Newbridge without tagging on - is there a barrier?

Would your 'Naas' annual ticket actually work if used to tag on in Newbridge or would it be rejected? If it's the latter, and it's not possible to board without tagging on then the argument is stronger, thanks to their own systems, that you were not in fact travelling through Newbridge.

AnnieM240

We drive to Naas as it is now in the Dublin area short hop zone and our annual ticket prices were reduced by nearly E1000 ( we paid E2700 each for 2016) The Naas station is only a 10 minute drive for us and we can park for free at the friends house.

AnnieM240

No our ticket wouldn't work at the Newbridge Station if we tried to enter through the barrier but there is a way onto platform 2 in Newbridge where there is no barrier.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Its worth remember that the balances of probability is the standard of evidence used. If you have evidence from the people that you park with it may be helpful. Their word may be considered sufficient.

schemingbohemia

punisher5112 wrote: »

They never tag on though???

Sorry meant to say getting on at Naas, not tagging.

JennyZ

Two people both missing the stop at the same time on a regular journey may come across as odd, they could on the basis of probability try to imply it was intentional as you live in Newbridge, is there no way you can prove you do not do it on a daily basis? evidence of parking in Naas etc. Unfortunately the non tagging doesn't help either.

punisher5112

Only way I can see helping is if you could give exact times and dates of you travelling from the correct station and see could CCTV show you there.

You can't blame the company as its hard to tell if someone is genuine or totally ripping the piss.

AnnieM240

Well as we are husband and wife and both work the same hours we travel together so it is not a big think that we both got off at the same station. We park in our friends who is willing to back us up

Galwegian44

Hi,

Do you or your partner have smartphones? If so, check your location history (you can see a detailed history at google.ie) if it is enabled on either phone.

This might actually be a situation where lack of privacy may work to your advantage!

https://www.google.com/maps/timeline?pb

Good Luck.

Can you not just tell them to cop on to themselves?


If I am found guilty of murdering someone, you can't just presume I must have murdered a dozen people and then sentence me for that. I don't think 'I presume' will stand up under any scrutiny? Surely that would be laughed out of a courtroom, no?


Plus, as you say, if the short-hop zone is designed the way it is (ie it makes more financial sense for you to drive to Naas) then surely they'd realise this is the case, too?

magicbastarder

punisher5112 wrote: »

You can't blame the company

how would this stand up in court, as IE are operating on a presumption of guilt with no actual evidence?
the very fact that they were not caught before is evidence itself that they were not doing what IE have claimed they have been doing.

punisher5112

AnnieM240 wrote: »

Well as we are husband and wife and both work the same hours we travel together so it is not a big think that we both got off at the same station. We park in our friends who is willing to back us up

Only issue with the parking it would need to be proven and its only their word.

Is there any CCTV at the friends? What was said above about checking phone and how it tracks could be another option.

You are asked to tag on and off no matter what type of ticket is loaded as it helps them knowing numbers travelling and if everyone was to do same they would end up putting smaller trains on as it would show up nobody travels.

punisher5112

magicbastarder wrote: »

how would this stand up in court, as IE are operating on a presumption of guilt with no actual evidence?
the very fact that they were not caught before is evidence itself that they were not doing what IE have claimed they have been doing.

Plenty have done it for years and got away with it.
In this case if they can prove they are genuine that would be a good outcome.

They calculated the times the tagged off so could work it out that way.
They must tag on and off no matter what once machine works of course.

AnnieM240

I know. this is what we are thinking and we have also now sought legal advise on this. Ok we didn't tag on or off that's our mistake but a company cant presume that due to one mistake you have always been doing this.

AnnieM240

We have been using these tickets since January this year and never had an issue before. We have had our tickets checked on mutable occasions and never a problem.

punisher5112

AnnieM240 wrote: »

We have been using these tickets since January this year and never had an issue before. We have had our tickets checked on mutable occasions and never a problem.

As far as I know the hand held units wouldn't know if you tagged or not as it would show yearly ticket was on it.

long_b

You normally don't have to tag on in Newbridge in the mornings.
Only occasionally do you have to tag off.

Great suggestion on the Google Maps history

goingnowhere

Here is the counter argument

Until last year you had a Newbridge Dublin ticket
You changed to a Sallins Dublin to avail of the new SHZ boundary
You get caught over traveling to Newbridge
The leap card has no record of any tag on or off at Sallins

There is a reasonable case to answer here, as others have pointed out you need to prove you were somewhere else, had you paid to park in the car park in Sallins then you would be on a winner thanks to park by text. That said you have a witness who will confirm you park daily at their house.

Regardless you owe without question 100 euro + plus fare

J.pilkington

https://www.joe.ie/life-style/a-irish-rail-commuter-has-to-pay-a-huge-fine-after-he-got-caught-trying-to-scam-the-system-483454

magicbastarder

goingnowhere wrote: »

There is a reasonable case to answer here, as others have pointed out you need to prove you were somewhere else

Why? IE have accused her off an offence they have no evidence actually occurred. The notion of having to prove your innocence is nonsense.

At best, all IE can offer is that she *might* have been doing what they have accused her of. Which is an insultingly facile basis on which to levy a fine so large.

punisher5112

magicbastarder wrote: »

Why? IE have accused her off an offence they have no evidence actually occurred. The notion of having to prove your innocence is nonsense.

At best, all IE can offer is that she *might* have been doing what they have accused her of. Which is an insultingly facile basis on which to levy a fine so large.

Quite a few have been prosecuted as they were able to work off average estimated travel.

They can and do persue.

In this case going by op word they didn't travel on purposely and hadn't been doing so but now they must prove they weren't.

If say the last month they have travelled they could put in for CCTV and show times they went to Dublin and back and show they got off in correct station.

Ben D Bus

magicbastarder wrote: »

Why? IE have accused her off an offence they have no evidence actually occurred. The notion of having to prove your innocence is nonsense.

At best, all IE can offer is that she *might* have been doing what they have accused her of. Which is an insultingly facile basis on which to levy a fine so large.

But there IS evidence. They were caught travelling outside the SHZ. Even if only once. There is circumstantial evidence based on their address.

The obvious defence of previous usage via tag-on/off is not present.

In civil cases, it often IS a case of proving you are innocent. Think of a libel case where you have to prove, on balance, that what was said of you isn't true. Maybe not proof, but balance of probability. I think that's the phrase used. Criminal cases need guilt to be proven beyond reasonable doubt which is a much higher standard.

TallGlass

Am I the only one who thinks it a bit fookin cheeky of them to fine you and then ask you to pay the fare of 16€ ?

Boulevardier

I think you will have to see a solicitor about obtaining a legal remedy.

A discussion board is not going to sort this.

weldoninhio

Is your ticket even valid if you don't tag on in the morning??

punisher5112

weldoninhio wrote: »

Is your ticket even valid if you don't tag on in the morning??

In the case of it been a yearly one they would be OK but technically its not valid for travel if it isn't tagged on.

They allow for honest mistake or machine faults but as you would be aware it would be a different story for cash leap transactions.

Hilly Bill

They may have already viewed cctv in Newbridge hence the fine. Maybe this should be over in Legal Discussion where the op may get a better solution instead of the assumptions and accusations that usually happens here :-).
If it was me and i over travelled just the once then I'd pay the original fine and let them take me to court for the additional fine where they will have to provide evidence to back up their claim.

magicbastarder

magicbastarder wrote: »

Why? IE have accused her off an offence they have no evidence actually occurred. The notion of having to prove your innocence is nonsense.

At best, all IE can offer is that she *might* have been doing what they have accused her of. Which is an insultingly facile basis on which to levy a fine so large.

And they have no evidence they didn't cheat - never tagged on. That's a red flag

noodler

I've an annual ticket for short hop and never tag on or off unless it is required to open a barrier.

TheChizler

TallGlass wrote: »

Am I the only one who thinks it a bit fookin cheeky of them to fine you and then ask you to pay the fare of 16€ ?

There was a thread here recently where someone got the standard fare plus missed fare, IR backed down when it was pointed out that the standard fare should cover the journey. They seemingly just hope you pay it without questioning it.

AnnieM240

Deleted User wrote: »

magicbastarder wrote: »

Why? IE have accused her off an offence they have no evidence actually occurred. The notion of having to prove your innocence is nonsense.

At best, all IE can offer is that she *might* have been doing what they have accused her of. Which is an insultingly facile basis on which to levy a fine so large.

And they have no evidence they didn't cheat - never

Well our tickets have been checked on board numerous times so it was never flagged to this then that we hadn't tagged on. As I have previously stated there is no barrier and the side that does have one is always open so no one ever tags on. Happy to pay the €116 fine. But €1600 on a annual ticket valued at €1800 is a bit much.

noodler

noodler wrote: »

I've an annual ticket for short hop and never tag on or off unless it is required to open a barrier.

Is it part of the ticket terms that you use the tag?

punisher5112

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Is it part of the ticket terms that you use the tag?

Yes everyone must validate.

Same on all transport that takes leap and new social ft passes.

oppenheimer1

I've said it before and I'll say it again, be as obstinate and as uncooperative as possible with these lads if you come across them, and never ever give them your leap/pass if it doesn't have a valid ticket - ever!

beauf

Your think you could check this with the station CCTV considering the fraud that had been caught using this in the UK. Your be mad not to have it here.

It would protect non fraud where it's a mistake.

road_high

Wonder had the OP been a pair of junkies or drinks ala Luas Red Line would the treatment meated out have been so severe?

punisher5112

road_high wrote: »

Wonder had the OP been a pair of junkies or drinks ala Luas Red Line would the treatment meated out have been so severe?

Luas is different they seem to let off.

Rail is a different story its not tolerated.

noodler

Deleted User wrote: »

Is it part of the ticket terms that you use the tag?

Possibly, I don't use it as some kind of defence.

Just that it makes no cost difference to me.

If I was ever scanned by an inspector and he told me it wasn't tagged on (even though its a perfectly valid ticket) theres no way I'd be personally accepting a fine for such a lack of common sense.

I suppose I just said it more to say that it goes on out of convenience.

thomasj

TheChizler wrote: »

There was a thread here recently where someone got the standard fare plus missed fare, IR backed down when it was pointed out that the standard fare should cover the journey. They seemingly just hope you pay it without questioning it.

http://www.irishrail.ie/contact-us/faqs?i=4272

If you don’t have a valid ticket on board the Train you will have to pay a fixed penalty payment of €100 plus the unpaid fare.

Victor

road_high wrote: »

Wonder had the OP been a pair of junkies or drinks ala Luas Red Line would the treatment meated out have been so severe?

Many addicts have free travel passes and are personally known to the CSOs on Luas, that's why their tickets aren't checked.

Victor

So, how did you get home that night? Do you have a pair of tickets for Newbridge-Sallins to collect the car?

xabi

Victor wrote: »

So, how did you get home that night? Do you have a pair of tickets for Newbridge-Sallins to collect the car?

Good thinking.

Sam Russell

Victor wrote: »

So, how did you get home that night? Do you have a pair of tickets for Newbridge-Sallins to collect the car?

Would only need one.

dalta5billion

Naas is only recently in the Short-Hop Zone. Hence the OP's recent decision to switch to getting on at Sallins instead of Newbridge. I've considered doing this as well, the price differential is huge.

Newbridge barriers are always open in the mornings. Who'd bother validating a monthly/annual ticket when the barriers are open? You're going to be checked in Heuston/on the way in anyways. The smaller carpark on the other side has no barriers at all and no way to tag on.

If the OP really was trying to sneakily get away with buying a 1-stop-short ticket she would have been caught long before now. Ticket inspectors are regularly on this route and come out to check for Newbridge passengers doing this precise thing between Newbridge and Naas.

It's super easy to miss your stop when you're commuting for hours each day to Heuston. Give over Columbo.