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Minister Noonan talks about building heights in Dublin

  • 15-04-2017 10:42am
    #1
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,202 Mod ✭✭✭✭ CatInABox


    Minister Noonan has stated that Dublin needs high rise buildings. Hopefully the people in charge of these things will start paying attention to this issue, as it's a major contributor to the urban sprawl that's currently blighting Dublin and the surrounding counties.

    They're predicting an extra million people living in Dublin city by 2040, personally I think it'll hit that sooner. Even so, an extra million people by 2040 will cause the current infrastructure in Dublin to collapse completely. The M50 is near useless at times already, and without significant investment in public transport, people better get used to working from a car park.

    The Independent has more here.


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 18,884 ✭✭✭✭ murphaph


    "another 5 or 6 storeys" how dreadfully unambitious we are.


  • Registered Users Posts: 119 ✭✭ fionnsci


    In fairness, the situation would be enormously different if every 5/6 storey appartment development, of which there are dreadfully too many, was 10/12 storeys.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,101 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell


    Could any currently constructed building be increased in height by a worthwhile amount?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,093 ✭✭✭ hi5


    We have street like this less than a mile from O' Connell Street with one/two bed single story cottages.
    Even though they are someones pride and joy and may even have some historical and architectural merit, but they have surely served there time in the centre of a capital city.
    https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3559393,-6.2426013,3a,75y,58.85h,84.74t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1segIzby0vxWPByYjC8XrDeQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,183 ✭✭✭ cgcsb


    What's annoying is the terraced houses with front and back gardens built on Dorset St, Pearse St, Cathal Brugha St etc. as late as the 1990s, a time when people were already forced to drive from Kildare. The 4 storey limit needs to end.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,884 ✭✭✭✭ murphaph


    fionnsci wrote: »
    In fairness, the situation would be enormously different if every 5/6 storey appartment development, of which there are dreadfully too many, was 10/12 storeys.
    Of course you're right but still. The Docklands should be designated a la defense type area at least.


  • Registered Users Posts: 78,221 ✭✭✭✭ Victor


    Could any currently constructed building be increased in height by a worthwhile amount?
    Generally, no. Buildings tend to be designed for their expected use, adjusted for a safety factor to cover eccentric loading, construction loads, etc.

    However, when buildings are established and/or repurposed (change mill to apartments or offices), then there may be scope to add 1-2 storeys.

    But, no, you can't add 6 storeys to a modern apartment block.


  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,310 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Peregrine


    Could any currently constructed building be increased in height by a worthwhile amount?

    Not really. Maybe a storey or two onto some buildings but nothing significant.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,101 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell


    Victor wrote: »
    Generally, no. Buildings tend to be designed for their expected use, adjusted for a safety factor to cover eccentric loading, construction loads, etc.

    However, when buildings are established and/or repurposed (change mill to apartments or offices), then there may be scope to add 1-2 storeys.

    But, no, you can't add 6 storeys to a modern apartment block.
    Peregrine wrote: »
    Not really. Maybe a storey or two onto some buildings but nothing significant.

    I've noticed a few old apartment buildings have had an extra floor added. There is one on the Merrion Road near the Merrion Gates, backing onto Caritas. There is another on Appian Way, and another in Newgrove Ave Sandymount.

    Only one extra floor though.


  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,310 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Peregrine


    I've noticed a few old apartment buildings have had an extra floor added. There is one on the Merrion Road near the Merrion Gates, backing onto Caritas. There is another on Appian Way, and another in Newgrove Ave Sandymount.

    Only one extra floor though.

    I think The Marker Hotel is adding an extra floor too.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,411 Avada


    Peregrine wrote: »
    I think The Marker Hotel is adding an extra floor too.

    2 stories as far as I know. Aren't they adding extra height to the Hilton on the quays?


  • Registered Users Posts: 78,221 ✭✭✭✭ Victor


    Oh, some buildings will have been designed for the possibility of upward extension, although it would be rare.

    In the case of the hotels, it would mean shutting down the whole hotel and likely doubling up on some foundations and columns.

    Also greater possibilities with a good-quality, mature building, than with a still settling-in newer building. A few factors - concrete gets stronger as it gets older, any settlement issues with the foundations and quality control issues with the rest of the structure will have become obvious (or not).


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,830 ✭✭✭ markpb


    The Beacon Renal building in Sandyford is going from one floor to eight floors. I'm fairly sure that was planned before initial construction, I'd be surprised if a single floor building could normally be extended like that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,245 ✭✭✭ myshirt


    Baldy would be better to speak about the M20 Cork to Limerick and investment in the Midwest region to act as a counterbalance to Dublin. Dublin is a beautiful city, perhaps 30M high should be the cap possibly, but I would rather see this urban sprawl push our hand on facing up to the need for balanced regional development.

    Maybe Dublin could stop stealing Limerick's water then aswell.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,101 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell


    myshirt wrote: »
    Maybe Dublin could stop stealing Limerick's water then aswell.

    I know it rains a lot in Limerick, but if water is taken from the Shannon in Limerick and moved to Dublin, most of it will have fallen as rain further north. It rains a lot in the West as well. :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,257 Yourself isit


    myshirt wrote: »
    Baldy would be better to speak about the M20 Cork to Limerick and investment in the Midwest region to act as a counterbalance to Dublin. Dublin is a beautiful city, perhaps 30M high should be the cap possibly, but I would rather see this urban sprawl push our hand on facing up to the need for balanced regional development.

    Maybe Dublin could stop stealing Limerick's water then aswell.

    What we're you going to do with the shannon water since you already have a surplus?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,245 ✭✭✭ myshirt


    What we're you going to do with the shannon water since you already have a surplus?

    Let's not divert the thread, it was only a passing comment, but you don't have to be a genius to see something unsettling in the earmarking of €1BN for piping Limerick water to Dublin by 2024, and only a single €1M to get the M20 project going.

    The correct response to this urban sprawl is not higher and higher buildings, it is balanced regional development. Get the M20 built and start feeding a pipeline of workers and consumers into Cork, Galway and Limerick.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,347 ✭✭✭✭ MJohnston


    Advocating moving things to Cork or Limerick belies a misunderstanding of why the companies locating themselves in Dublin do so.

    Dublin has a significant housing shortage even without additional commercial expansion in the city, so significant amounts of new units of housing are required *now*. There's no way to relocate that problem elsewhere, we have to build more in Dublin, and it needs to be higher density to reduce sprawl.


  • Registered Users Posts: 119 ✭✭ fionnsci


    myshirt wrote: »
    The correct response to this urban sprawl is not higher and higher buildings, it is balanced regional development. Get the M20 built and start feeding a pipeline of workers and consumers into Cork, Galway and Limerick.

    It's both, actually.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,155 ✭✭✭✭ Geuze


    Every 1 and 2 storey house inside the canals should be knocked.

    Replace with 5-8 storey blocks.

    This will require a lot of imagination, legally, financially, and politically.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 78,221 ✭✭✭✭ Victor


    Geuze wrote: »
    Every 1 and 2 storey house inside the canals should be knocked.
    This isn't necessary when there are large amounts of vacant land available.

    Additionally, much of that 1 and 2 storey housing is actually quite dense, especially older properties, as they don't have large gardens. Compare the different property types here: https://binged.it/2onPEdE - and the vacant land.


  • Registered Users Posts: 881 ✭✭✭ Bray Head


    Victor wrote: »
    Geuze wrote: »
    Every 1 and 2 storey house inside the canals should be knocked.
    This isn't necessary when there are large amounts of vacant land available.

    Additionally, much of that 1 and 2 storey housing is actually quite dense, especially older properties, as they don't have large gardens. Compare the different property types here: https://binged.it/2onPEdE - and the vacant land.
    Exactly. A lot of property inside the canals dates from before the era of mass car ownership.

    They were built for people to walked or cycled to work and amenities.

    The footprint is much more efficient than say a 1950s suburb like Clontarf or Mount Merrion.

    People who think of large-scale CPO-ing of individually owned residences for demolition can stop dreaming.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,194 ✭✭✭ man98


    Buildings don't necessarily need to be big, but that's not to say that they can't be made more efficient in their use of space. Definitely agree with the minister on this matter as it's doing untold damage along the commuter belt. Plenty of brown field sites in Dublin city centre which are ideal for a considerably taller building.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,516 ✭✭✭✭ Idbatterim


    The glass bottle site has buildings of four floors proposed! The councillors are the problem. They won't do anything about the issue. National government needs to sort this issue...


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,211 ✭✭✭ MayoSalmon


    Just back from Chicago...Dublin City counselors should all be ashamed of themselves


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,183 ✭✭✭ cgcsb


    Proposals for 4 storeys at the proposed glass bottle site should result in firings. We can't waste anymore central land. Also more SDZs, the abandoned industrial area north of broom bride station is screaming for an sdz


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,155 ✭✭✭✭ Geuze


    Victor wrote: »
    This isn't necessary when there are large amounts of vacant land available.

    Additionally, much of that 1 and 2 storey housing is actually quite dense, especially older properties, as they don't have large gardens. Compare the different property types here: https://binged.it/2onPEdE - and the vacant land.

    Okay, I'm open to be convinced.

    But 1-storey housing off Dorset, surely it should be knocked?


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,155 ✭✭✭✭ Geuze


    Victor wrote: »
    This isn't necessary when there are large amounts of vacant land available.

    Is there?

    Where, exactly?


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,884 ✭✭✭✭ murphaph


    Geuze wrote: »
    Okay, I'm open to be convinced.

    But 1-storey housing off Dorset, surely it should be knocked?
    With proper planning control (ie prevention of sprawl) the market value of the land would see to it that it would be knocked but not compulsorily.

    At the moment however there is still plenty of brown field land in the city and this should see significantly higher building than at present.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 78,221 ✭✭✭✭ Victor


    Geuze wrote: »
    Is there?

    Where, exactly?
    South and North Docklands, Connoly, Summerhill, Grangeorman, Broadstone, O'Devaney Gardens, Cabra, Heuston, Newmarket, Charlemont Street and a bunch of other sites.


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