The 109a Bus Thread

paulboland

PSO contract with bus eireann
These are PSO Routes

PDF attached

Table A1 2014-2019 (5 Years)
All of these routes will remain as PSO routes until at least 2019
The 109 and 109A for example are PSO routes
109A runs 24 hours a day every hour


Table A2 list was a contract from 2014-2016 (2 Years)

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Schedule_of_Services_in_Direct_Award_Contract_with_Bus_Eireann_from_1st_December_2014_File211.pdf

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/public-transport-services/public-service-obligation-contracts/

Table A 1 list most of them will most likely continue to be part of a new 5 year contract after 2019

bk

paulboland wrote: »

PSO contract with bus eireann
These are PSO Routes

Only because that is always the way it has been and because they were grandfathered into the NTA.

It doesn't mean it is the way it should be and it doesn't mean we the public of Ireland are getting the best value for our money by it being this way.

And the EU agrees, which is why they are forcing the market to be opened up to fair, open and transparent tendering.

If BE/DB open these contracts, then cool, it proves that we are getting good value for money from them. But we the public won't know until then.

As for the 109/A IMO it is insane that that route is a PSO route. How can a route that has double deckers jam packed with people every day and relatively high fares be a PSO route?!

Of BE needs a subsidy and free buses to run that route, it shows just how horribly inefficient they are IMO.

I see no reason why this and a few other routes shouldn't be offered on a commercial basis with two competing operators as usual. Of course BE could be one of these operators, but they shouldn't be the only bus on the route and they really shouldn't be getting a subsidy and free buses for it IMO.

paulboland

bk wrote: »

Only because that is always the way it has been and because they were grandfathered into the NTA.

It doesn't mean it is the way it should be and it doesn't mean we the public of Ireland are getting the best value for our money by it being this way.

And the EU agrees, which is why they are forcing the market to be opened up to fair, open and transparent tendering.

If BE/DB open these contracts, then cool, it proves that we are getting good value for money from them. But we the public won't know until then.

As for the 109/A IMO it is insane that that route is a PSO route. How can a route that has double deckers jam packed with people every day and relatively high fares be a PSO route?!

Of BE needs a subsidy and free buses to run that route, it shows just how horribly inefficient they are IMO.

I see no reason why this and a few other routes shouldn't be offered on a commercial basis with two competing operators as usual. Of course BE could be one of these operators, but they shouldn't be the only bus on the route and they really shouldn't be getting a subsidy and free buses for it IMO.

109A is not a full bus at all times far from it I use this Bus 7 times week
109 and 109A is not the same bus they are different bus routes

109A at times can have only 1-15 passengers in off peak hours it's only close to full in the morning with DCU students and in the Afternoon and Evening
The 109A route is not covered by any private operators

109 is also only packed in the mornings and evenings and is essential bus service to Navan and Kells and Cavan commuters

Don't get confused between the 109 and 109A they are not the same bus service

109A is a very essential PSO route
No private bus operator would provide the same bus service on the 109A route as a commercial service not a chance of that happening they would not have enough passengers to even pay for even 1 day for the run of the bus timetable
109A is a must to stay as a PSO route

ArmaniJeanss

bk wrote: »

I see no reason why this and a few other routes shouldn't be offered on a commercial basis with two competing operators as usual. Of course BE could be one of these operators, but they shouldn't be the only bus on the route and they really shouldn't be getting a subsidy and free buses for it IMO.

Slight digression but out of interest how would we (or indeed the NTA) intend yearly/monthly commuter tickets to work if there were two competing commercial operators on a route? Two competing operators sounds great and all, but not so good if I can only get every second bus on my prepaid ticket.

n97 mini

bk wrote: »

As for the 109/A IMO it is insane that that route is a PSO route. How can a route that has double deckers jam packed with people every day and relatively high fares be a PSO route?!

The 109A runs 24 hours a day 7 days a week, which is pretty unbelievable. I wonder did they switch to 24 hour running to burn cash and make sure it wasn't profitable?

paulboland

n97 mini wrote: »

The 109A runs 24 hours a day 7 days a week, which is pretty unbelievable. I wonder did they switch to 24 hour running to burn cash and make sure it wasn't profitable?

PSO is to provide essential bus service on routes not profitable that's the purpose of any PSO route to provide transport to areas a private bus operator would not cover.

109A is 24 hours to provide a service from Dublin Airport and covers Kells/Navan/Ratoath/Ashbourne/DCU/Dublin Airport/Dublin

There was a serious lack of bus service on the route before 2010 as in very poor

The only way a passenger from Kells/Navan can to get to Ratoath/Ashbourne/Dublin Airport by Bus is the 109A

It can't be run as a commercial service as no private bus operator would provide that service every hour that is why it's a PSO route

jimmycrackcorm

paulboland wrote:

109A is 24 hours to provide a service from Dublin Airport and covers Kells/Navan/Ratoath/Ashbourne/DCU/Dublin Airport/Dublin

DB don't provide a 24 hour service, so why is it so essential?

paulboland

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

DB don't provide a 24 hour service, so why is it so essential?

The 109A covers Dublin and Co Meath

Passengers in Dublin who need to get to Dublin Airport use the 109A
The Bus run from Kells to Dublin and covers in between Navan/Ashbourne/Rataoth/DCU/Dublin Airport as well as Dublin
So Dublin Bus don't need to provide a 24 hour service to Dublin Airport it's covered by 109A

A lot of workers in Dublin and Co Meath work night shifts and is also used a lot in the weekends it's a better service than nightlink service is

devnull

paulboland wrote: »

Passengers in Dublin who need to get to Dublin Airport use the 109A
The Bus run from Kells to Dublin and covers in between Navan/Ashbourne/Rataoth/DCU/Dublin Airport as well as Dublin
So Dublin Bus don't need to provide a 24 hour service to Dublin Airport it's covered by 109A

No. That's not true at all.

The 109a cannot take people to or from Dublin airport and does not. It can only take people to the airport from outside Dublin. It cannot take inter Dublin traffic and never has done.

Dublin airport is served 24 hours a day by Aircoach who provide four services an hour from various parts of Dublin during the night every hour.

Those services are 2x 700 and 1x 703 and 1x 702.

n97 mini

paulboland wrote: »

Passengers in Dublin who need to get to Dublin Airport use the 109A

They don't as the outbound service is pick-up only at the airport. Check the timetable.

paulboland wrote: »

So Dublin Bus don't need to provide a 24 hour service to Dublin Airport it's covered by 109A

It's not. The only 24 hour service from the city centre is by those evil capitalists Aircoach, ironically.

Back to the 109A, ironic that it's a better service than the Nitelink, and yet it's publicly funded, whereas Nitelink is a commercial operation. Priorities sound backways there.

paulboland

devnull wrote: »

No. That's not true at all.

The 109a cannot take people to or from Dublin airport and does not. It can only take people to the airport from outside Dublin. It cannot take inter Dublin traffic and never has done.

Dublin airport is served 24 hours a day by Aircoach who provide four services an hour from various parts of Dublin during the night every hour.

Those services are 2x 700 and 1x 703 and 1x 702.

109a route was changed last year
http://www.buseireann.ie/timetables/1473263565-109A.pdf

The 109A bus does goto to Dublin Airport from Busaras

It provides a bus during the night from (Busaras) to Dublin Airport and continues to Kells
00:25 01:25 02:25 03:25 04:25 05:25 06:25

devnull

paulboland wrote: »

109a route was changed last year
http://www.buseireann.ie/timetables/1473263565-109A.pdf

The 109A bus does goto to Dublin Airport

It also provides during the night from (Busaras) to Dublin Airport and continues to Kells
00:25 01:25 02:25 03:25 04:25 05:25 06:25

You are wrong. It goes there but cannot take passengers between Dublin and Dublin airport.

See the note d and p next to the stops in timetable

paulboland

devnull wrote: »

You are wrong. It goes there but cannot take passengers between Dublin and Dublin airport.

See the note d and p next to the stops in timetable

I have got the 109A Bus before from Busaras and got off the bus at Atrium Rd Zone

Yes it's the pick up point to collect passengers going to Navan/Kells
Passengers get on the bus Atrium Rd Zone the Bus driver not going to stop you getting off the Bus lol

Strong Life in Dublin

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

DB don't provide a 24 hour service, so why is it so essential?

since when is the 109a bus operational 24 hours a day? I thought it stopped at 11pm

paulboland

Strong Life in Dublin wrote: »

since when is the 109a bus operational 24 hours a day? I thought it stopped at 11pm

July 31st 2016

http://www.buseireann.ie/news_timetable.php?id=2090&month=Jul

The service enhancements are as follows:

The route will now operate 24/7 with an hourly frequency throughout the night with additional departures as follows:
From Kells – 22:40, 23:40, 00:40, 01:40 and 02:40
From Dublin City Centre – 00:25, 01:25, 02:25, 03:25 and 04:25
From Dublin Airport – 00:40, 01:40, 02:40, 03:40 & 04:40
All service’s from Kells will now depart from a new terminus at the Lloyd Business Park at 40 minutes past the hour serving all stops as at present
Services at night will now operate to/from the City Centre providing a 24 hour service linking Kells, Navan, Dunshaughlin, Ratoath and Ashbourne to Dublin City Centre.


I work night shifts so the bus running during the night is very useful to me
You also get commuters using the Bus from Dublin Airport during the night to and from Ashbourne/Navan/Kells

boobycharlton

I find this very irritating. Meath has a better connection to Dublin Airport than actual DUBLIN suburbs like Tallaght/Lucan/Clondalkin etc. Why can't DB run at least a skeleton 24 hour service on main corridors and to the airport?

paulboland

boobycharlton wrote: »

I find this very irritating. Meath has a better connection to Dublin Airport than actual DUBLIN suburbs like Tallaght/Lucan/Clondalkin etc. Why can't DB run at least a skeleton 24 hour service on main corridors and to the airport?

Co meath has a population of 194,942
Navan alone has population of 31,689

We don't have any train service at all

The Bus Eireann Buses 109 and 109A is the only bus transport during both peak and off peak hours

109A bus route is not covered by any private bus operators

A lot of Navan use the 109A bus service instead of using car transport and also provides transport to Ashbourne and DCU and Dublin Airport

109A is the only Bus in Co meath that goes to Dublin Airport
A lot work night shifts also

Out of the 110,000 commuters that use Bus Eireann each day a lot of these are from Co Meath

n97 mini

boobycharlton wrote: »

I find this very irritating. Meath has a better connection to Dublin Airport than actual DUBLIN suburbs like Tallaght/Lucan/Clondalkin etc. Why can't DB run at least a skeleton 24 hour service on main corridors and to the airport?

The mind boggles. And as it's PSO we are paying for it!

paulboland

n97 mini wrote: »

The mind boggles. And as it's PSO we are paying for it!

That's the purpose of PSO to provide transport on no profitable routes

If you lived in Co Meath you would understand

We have no train service yet smaller towns with lot lower population do have a train service.

If you lived in co meath you would be looking for more transport options be provided trust me

Do you live in Dublin by any chance with your multi options of transport of Multi Dublin Buses/Dart/Luas/Train service

All we have in Navan is the 109 and 109A and 110 Navan Town bus service that's it

Without the 109A bus Navan commuters don't have a transport service to get to Ashbourne or Dublin Airport

109 bus is also essential

The only private bus operator is Sillan Tours it don't cover the 109A route
It only provides a very limited service in the mornings to Dublin

Navan population is bigger than a lot of the dublin towns yet they have lot of transport options


Off peak hours transport is essential service
It cost 80 a day to get to from Navan to Ashbourne and back to Navan by Taxi

To get a Taxi from Navan to Dublin Airport it would cost 70 Euro to 85 Euro
It would cost 150.00 Euro to goto Dublin Airport and Return back to Navan by Taxi

This is why we need 109A Bus the cost is 13.00 euro each way

Fiskar

Trains are the way forward given the housing and population growth in the town. The buses are not the answer and not to be relied on.

Peppa Pig

paulboland wrote: »

If you lived in Co Meath you would understand
We have no train service

No train service in Co.Meath? Except for Gormanston and Dunboyne and Laytown, unless they have been moved out of Meath.

n97 mini

Peppa Pig wrote: »

No train service in Co.Meath? Except for Gormanston and Dunboyne and Laytown, unless they have been moved out of Meath.

M3 Parkway is also in Meath. Unless it too has been moved.

Peppa Pig

n97 mini wrote: »

M3 Parkway is also in Meath. Unless it too has been moved.

I also forgot Enfield

markpb

paulboland wrote:

Do you live in Dublin by any chance with your multi options of transport of Multi Dublin Buses/Dart/Luas/Train service

Do you read the posts you're replying to? The poster asked why a different county has a better off-peak service to Dublin airport than Dublin has and your response is that Dublin has dart, dublin bus and luas. Are you aware that two of those don't serve the airport and the third service doesn't run at night?

paulboland

n97 mini wrote: »

M3 Parkway is also in Meath. Unless it too has been moved.

Not much use to Navan and Kells population who don't have car

Navan has been promised a train service for years it's not been provided

Also not much use with a bus strike

n97 mini

paulboland wrote: »

Not much use to Navan and Kells population who don't have car

You claimed Meath had no rail service at all, whereas it has at least 5 railway stations.

PeadarCo

n97 mini wrote:

You claimed Meath had no rail service at all, whereas it has at least 5 railway stations.

To be fair when people in meath talk about a train station they are taking about a train route along the M/N 3 corridor to at very least Navan. That's what I presume he was getting at.

My guess would be the reason for the 109 being a PSO route would be as compensation for the failure to meet that promise. Its a route that could easily be done on a commercial basis. I would be open to correction on that point though.

Peppa Pig

PeadarCo wrote: »

To be fair when people in meath talk about a train station they are taking about a train route along the M/N 3 corridor to at very least Navan.

Well then they shouldn't say that there are no trains in any of Meath, when there patently is.

paulboland

Peppa Pig wrote: »

Well then they shouldn't say that there are no trains in any of Meath, when there patently is.

Co Meath covers a large area
Ashbourne is Co Meath also

Navan has the largest population in Co Meath and Is one of the largest growing towns in Ireland

A lot of Dublin population moved to Navan from 1996 to date with a huge increase during 2000 to 2010
House prices in Dublin was high and got crazy during the boom years so a lot moved to Navan as house prices where cheaper and bigger houses as well

The big increase of the navan population it was decided to provide a train station and train services

This was before even M3 Parkway was been planned

The economic crash the government went back on their word to the navan population

What's really annoying is navan has train tracks already it used to have a train service long time ago and back then population was tiny

All that is needed is an upgrade of the existing tracks for public use

Peppa Pig

So you accept that are are train stations in Meath?

paulboland

Peppa Pig wrote: »

So you accept that are are train stations in Meath?

It don't have a train service provided to the largest population of Co Meath which is Navan

So what's your opinion to Navan population the largest population in Co Meath in terms of transport and lot of these are ex Dublin population

Peppa Pig

paulboland wrote: »

It don't have a train service provided to the largest population of Co Meath which is Navan

I suppose that's the closest we'll get to you accepting that you were wrong.

markpb

paulboland wrote:

It don't have a train service provided to the largest population of Co Meath which is Navan

Why didn't you say that Navan doesn't have a rail service then?

n97 mini

Peppa Pig wrote: »

I suppose that's the closest we'll get to you accepting that you were wrong.

Amen!

paulboland

Peppa Pig wrote: »

I suppose that's the closest we'll get to you accepting that you were wrong.

Dunboyne although yes is in Co Meath is only 17.9 Km to Dublin that's only 11 miles it's basically just 4 miles to blanchardstown


Navan to Dublin is 53.3 km as in 32.93 miles
It's really of no use to Navan population the Dunboyne M3 train station
By the time you get there in a car or bus your only a short distance to Dublin anyway not much need to use it

What is needed is train service to M3 Parkway from a Navan train station

I would love you to see the response you get from navan public in person to your views on navan transport and what they want

A train service that's 36.8 km from Navan

n97 mini

Peppa Pig wrote: »

I suppose that's the closest we'll get to you accepting that you were wrong.

Looks like that's a no then.

paulboland

markpb wrote: »

Why didn't you say that Navan doesn't have a rail service then?

I have done in many posts in this thread and other threads

I'm not alone a lot of posts in various threads over the past few years by others about the broken promise of a Navan train service

Yes Co Meath has some train stations but are just outside Dublin at the start of Co Meath

The largest population of Co Meath navan has no train service in Navan

You have to go to towards Dublin by bus or car
It takes over an hour on a bus to get to M3 train station why bother your in Dublin in a few later min by staying on the bus lol

gazzer

I wonder will there be any chance of a private bus service from Cavan to Dublin starting anytime soon. Its been such a hassle the last few weeks trying to arrange lifts to and from Dublin. I dont work in Dublin every day so I can only imagine what it has been like for people who have to work in Dublin full time.

devnull

They cannot as the 109 is protected from competition as it's a PSO route.

n97 mini

The only way to compete with a PSO route is another PSO route!

I would think if the railway section from Navan to M3 Parkway ever opened that there would be a serious curtailment of the 109/109A routes. As the buses between 1am and 5am are probably the biggest loss makers they would be first to get the axe.

Would people be happy to axe the 24hr running and more of the 109A in exchange for a railway? The stations are likely to be at Navan, Dunshaughlin and Kilmessan.

gazzer

devnull wrote: »

They cannot as the 109 is protected from competition as it's a PSO route.

But surely if a private bus did a route from Cavan, Virginia and then direct to Dublin (via the M3) it would be allowed??? I seem to recall a private bus a while back that came from (I think) Donegal and then did Cavan, Viriginia and Dublin City Centre

devnull

gazzer wrote: »

But surely if a private bus did a route from Cavan, Virginia and then direct to Dublin (via the M3) it would be allowed??? I seem to recall a private bus a while back that came from (I think) Donegal and then did Cavan, Viriginia and Dublin City Centre

There's very little allowed that wouldn't be without stops that would be restricted to pick up or set down only so they don't interfere with the PSO service, it would have to be radically different from the PSO route

It would also be financially impossible to make it work when you would have a competitor who had unlimited free buses available to it, not need to pay commercial insurance and not have any service running costs as they would be paid for by the state.

paulboland

n97 mini wrote: »

The only way to compete with a PSO route is another PSO route!

I would think if the railway section from Navan to M3 Parkway ever opened that there would be a serious curtailment of the 109/109A routes. As the buses between 1am and 5am are probably the biggest loss makers they would be first to get the axe.

Would people be happy to axe the 24hr running and more of the 109A in exchange for a railway? The stations are likely to be at Navan, Dunshaughlin and Kilmessan.

Ashbourne was also mentioned to be as part of of the transport 21 plan to add a train station

Part 2 of the plan though got put on hold by the government due to the economic crash

The original plan was part 2 to be done by 2015
Co meath TD's in Navan have been lobbing the government and transport dept to get the part 2 plan back on track

Navan has the train tracks in use but it's only by freight trains all that is needed it's upgraded to use for public transport and extended to other train stations

n97 mini

It's about reopening the old line and Asbourne was not on it.
http://www.irishrail.ie/about-us/navan-railway-line

Re Meath Co Co, they have not helped by running a major sewer pipe along the old alignment, against regulations.

But tell me, you'd be happy for Navan to get a reduction in 109/109a services in exchange for a train service?

paulboland

n97 mini wrote: »

It's about reopening the old line and Asbourne was not on it.
http://www.irishrail.ie/about-us/navan-railway-line

Re Meath Co Co, they have not helped by running a major sewer pipe along the old alignment, against regulations.

But tell me, you'd be happy for Navan to get a reduction in 109/109a services in exchange for a train service?

Both services are needed it will take more cars of the road and be more public transport use

109A would continue unless they provided a train service from Kells to Navan to Rataoth/Ashbourne to DCU and Dublin Airport

Ashbourne was a town mentioned to be considered as part of a link station to the transport plan 2 but is not officially listed in the original part 2 plan

n97 mini

paulboland wrote: »

Both services are needed it will take more cars of the road and be more public transport use

109A would continue unless they provided a train service from Kells to Navan to Rataoth/Ashbourne to DCU and Dublin Airport

Ashbourne was a town mentioned to be considered as part of a link station to the transport plan 2 but is not officially listed in the original part 2 plan

So would you be happy for a reduction in 109/109a services in exchange for the rail line to be reopened to Navan? A lot of people would switch to rail so the existing level of bus service would not be required.

Ashbourne would get a feeder bus to Dunshaughlin at best.

paulboland

n97 mini wrote: »

So would you be happy for a reduction in 109/109a services in exchange for the rail line to be reopened to Navan? A lot of people would switch to rail so the existing level of bus service would not be required.

Ashbourne would get a feeder bus to Dunshaughlin at best.

Ashbourne would get a bus service from navan if 109a was replaced by train service it used to be serviced by the 107 bus but was not regular enough and is why 109A had Ashbourne added

There still woukd be a bus service provided from navan to Ashbourne if 109A services was cut
Its part of the PSO route

n97 mini

paulboland wrote: »

Ashbourne would get a bus service from navan if 109a was replaced by train service it used to be serviced by the 107 bus but was not regular enough and is why 109A had Ashbourne added

There still woukd be a bus service provided from navan to Ashbourne if 109A services was cut
Its part of the PSO route

I'm saying as part of any railway plan Ashbourne would not get a station but a feeder bus at best.

Third time: you'd be happy for a reduction in bus services if the rail link from M3 Parkway to Navan was completed?

paulboland

n97 mini wrote: »

I'm saying as part of any railway plan Ashbourne would not get a station but a feeder bus at best.

Third time: you'd be happy for a reduction in bus services if the rail link from M3 Parkway to Navan was completed?

There still woukd be a bus service from navan to Ashbourne to Dublin Airport unless train service ran 24 hours and included Navan to Ashbourne to Dublin Airport

Train service would not be 24 hours I doubt so a bus service would continue
It would still be from Navan to Ashbourne bus service not a feeder bus from outside navan

ThisRegard

paulboland wrote: »

Dunboyne although yes is in Co Meath is only 17.9 Km to Dublin that's only 11 miles it's basically just 4 miles to blanchardstown

Blanchardstown, spitting distance to the airport, to which there's no direct public transport options to. People in Meath can ​get to and from it easier.

paulboland

ThisRegard wrote: »

Blanchardstown, spitting distance to the airport, to which there's no direct public transport options to. People in Meath can ​get to and from it easier.

Blanchardstown population can use the 109 or other Dublin buses to get to Dublin and then to Dublin Airport

109A covers Kells/Navan/Dunshaughlin/Rathoth and Ashbourne population to get to Dublin Airport and Dcu

109 don't cover Rathoth/Ashbourne population

Blanchardstown is covered by lot of Dublin buses including 109

109 and 109A is not the same bus or bus route