Dublin bus capacity issues off peak

Stephen15

Bambi wrote: »

Problem is that the cheap skate language schools are using public transport as private hire and causing chaos in the summer. Dublin bus are happy enough as they're making coin off it

Only public transport system that can handle those numbers is a metro

So are Irish schools all cheapskates for not organizing private buses to bring their students to and from school this really sorry annoys as some students on buses still use cash for some bizarre reason I cannot for the life of me understand if was in charge of the NTA or DB I would ban all cash transcations from next week onwards.

Isambard

Hole in the timetable? No bus from 8 til 20 past? There'd be a riot in North Cork if that happened

bk

punisher5112 wrote: »

Db doesn't have enough vehicles or drivers even with all the new recruits.

That is peak, this thread is about off-peak services. DB has plenty of buses available off-peak (only 40% of the DB fleet operates off-peak). Obviously rosters changes would be required to make more drivers available off-peak.

But it is more of a culture at the company. Inflexibility, only operate the schedule. Don't push on reliefs when and where needed.

Non of this can be blamed on the NTA.

antoinolachtnai

The experience I have, too, is that if you offer a service on either side of the peak, with lower loadings and a bit more comfort, customers will gradually move to it and spread out the peak.

There are really serious off-peak gaps. For example, there is no bus that will get you from Swords to the airport in time to board the first scheduled flight (never mind if it's your job to de-ice the wings o a cold morning).

howiya

I was at the match Sunday and went to college green for a half 6 bus home. Most buses pulling in there at the two different stops were pretty fully loaded by the time they were leaving. As were the buses passing through College Green

Then yesterday morning I went to top up my leap card and realised I had more money on it than I thought. It took a while because I don't use the bus 7 days a week most weeks but it eventually dawned on me that because of leap fare capping I wasn't paying anything to use the three buses I took on Sunday.

I know this thread is about off peak services in general but there's probably a good few journeys on DB on a sunday that the passenger isn't paying for which would act as a disincentive to DB for providing extra services

antoinolachtnai

For sure, the overall fare capping concept is chaotic and haphazard. But there is still a lot of margin.

dfx-

bk wrote: »

That is peak, this thread is about off-peak services. DB has plenty of buses available off-peak (only 40% of the DB fleet operates off-peak). Obviously rosters changes would be required to make more drivers available off-peak.

But it is more of a culture at the company. Inflexibility, only operate the schedule. Don't push on reliefs when and where needed.

Non of this can be blamed on the NTA.

Reliefs? The services should be on the timetable and this is down to the NTA, they determine the service level to be provided.

The issue in the OP stems from a structural problem with the routes. The busy-ness of the 39s on the southside cause the problem the OP then experiences later on down the route. They bunch with the Burlington Road services and this creates a huge gap, then three buses together, then a huge gap.

It has been discussed here for the 39s before: lxflyer suggested a regular extra 39A departure off peak from 20mins or 30 minute frequency to a 15 minute frequency. But that is only one route in one direction from one garage. There are multiple examples of it.

It does not work by 'being flexible' or having 'reliefs', in other words making it up as they go along. It's all on the NTA since they want to call the shots and hold the purse strings.

antoinolachtnai

Flexibility is in the nature of the business. You have to run when the passengers are there.

Is there documentary evidence of this sustained NTA intransigence?

I think it is more likely that the NTA doesn't want to schedule a load of services that would only be lightly used for large portions of the year. If the management feel the same way about flexibility as you do, then maybe that is understandable.

Has the NTA refused permission to run an early morning service from Swords to the Airport too?

Cookie_Monster

They have to run at the same departure time.

Can't even get normal DB services to leave/run on time, what hope for additional reliefs?

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

That is peak, this thread is about off-peak services. DB has plenty of buses available off-peak (only 40% of the DB fleet operates off-peak). Obviously rosters changes would be required to make more drivers available off-peak.

But it is more of a culture at the company. Inflexibility, only operate the schedule. Don't push on reliefs when and where needed.

Non of this can be blamed on the NTA.

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Flexibility is in the nature of the business. You have to run when the passengers are there.

Is there documentary evidence of this sustained NTA intransigence?

I think it is more likely that the NTA doesn't want to schedule a load of services that would only be lightly used for large portions of the year. If the management feel the same way about flexibility as you do, then maybe that is understandable.

Has the NTA refused permission to run an early morning service from Swords to the Airport too?

It is true to say that most of the current service patterns across the Dublin city PSO bus network date back to the 2009-2011 implementation of Network Direct by Dublin Bus, which was principally down to them and rubber stamped by the NTA.

However, the NTA are now responsible for dictating service levels on PSO services in Dublin, no longer Dublin Bus. They call the shots these days. Dublin Bus will obviously highlight issues with running times, loadings etc., but the NTA are responsible for approving service levels to be provided and providing the necessary funding to do so.

The notion that there are lots of drivers sitting around available to operate potential reliefs in the evening off-peak is nonsense. Even if there were, they would have to be paid overtime - something we are all criticising Bus Eireann for.

While I would suggest that there is a case for having some buses available in the city centre during the evening peak on busy cross-city routes in order to fill in gaps in service, that is not the solution in the off-peak. Off-peak capacity shortfalls need to be addressed by increasing scheduled service levels and not by having adhoc resources sitting around in the off chance that they might be used.

What is needed in the off-peak is an overhaul of schedules to meet the growing demand, e.g. increase the 39a to every 12-15 minutes in the evening. That will require additional drivers, and while new drivers are coming out of the driving school, many of them, and indeed many of the additional buses delivered to date, have been required to maintain existing service levels on routes due to the extended running times being experienced due to the LUAS cross-city works.

Some routes have seen improvements, but it has been a glacially slow process, and I personally suspect that the NTA are waiting for the LUAS works to come to a conclusion and see how bus times improve as a result before allocating additional resources to services.

I also understand that the NTA have commissioned transport consultants to carry out a full independent network review of the Dublin city bus network post-LUAS cross-city, to be carried out this summer, and I would imagine that will include looking at service levels.

As for the Airport well I've long felt that the design of PSO services to it has been an absolute disgrace. Historically Dublin Bus showed no real interest in it. It didn't help that the DAA would charge them for operating any additional services to/from the airport.

But the NTA now have a chance to change that. A full network of PSO services to/from North Dublin should be in place - at a minimum the 4, 27b, 33a, 33b and 140 should all be extended to serve the Airport, and they and the other PSO routes serving the airport should have operating hours that match employment shifts there. The focus should be on facilitating commuting habits of employees, with passengers benefitting as a result.

Cookie_Monster

lxflyer wrote: »

I also understand that the NTA have commissioned transport consultants to carry out a full independent network review of the Dublin city bus network post-LUAS cross-city, to be carried out this summer, and I would imagine that will include looking at service levels.

Oh yay. Network Indirect MkII!
have all the original suggestions even been finished yet? Sure the 7 only got transitioned in the last few months.

LXFlyer

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Oh yay. Network Indirect MkII!
have all the original suggestions even been finished yet? Sure the 7 only got transitioned in the last few months.

The only changes that weren't implemented were the western and southern orbital routes and the routes serving Swords and North County Dublin.

I don't think it is necessarily a bad thing to revisit this now, considering the impact that LUAS cross-city will have. Some routes may no longer be needed in the same form as at present.

The NTA have finally recognised that, unless significant government funding is provided for additional rail infrastructure, in the meantime the bus will remain the workhorse of our public transport network.

It's eight years since the Deloitte Report was published and Dublin is changing significantly - and LUAS cross-city is a major part of that. Bear in mind also that the NTA had only started out at that time, and had no great involvement in the Network Direct project.

I don't think it is unreasonable to have another review. Network Direct was at a time when the economy was slumping and there was significant over-capacity. Now things are on the up and capacity is badly needed along with more orbital routes in particular.

antoinolachtnai

lxflyer wrote: »

It is true to say that most of the current service patterns across the Dublin city PSO bus network date back to the 2009-2011 implementation of Network Direct by Dublin Bus, which was principally down to them and rubber stamped by the NTA.

However, the NTA are now responsible for dictating service levels on PSO services in Dublin, no longer Dublin Bus. They call the shots these days. Dublin Bus will obviously highlight issues with running times, loadings etc., but the NTA are responsible for approving service levels to be provided and providing the necessary funding to do so.

Then DB needs to work with them and negotiate.

The notion that there are lots of drivers sitting around available to operate potential reliefs in the evening off-peak is nonsense. Even if there were, they would have to be paid overtime - something we are all criticising Bus Eireann for.

1. I don't know anyone who is criticising BE for paying overtime.

2. the numbers don't lie. There appears to be a giant pool of under-utilised drivers. There are 2500 drivers and 850 buses. Even if everybody only worked an average of 31 hours a week, that would be enough to keep all the buses on the road 13 hours a day. (31 hours a week *2500 drivers /850 buses /7 days in the week = 13)

LXFlyer

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Then DB needs to work with them and negotiate.



1. I don't know anyone who is criticising BE for paying overtime.

2. the numbers don't lie. There appears to be a giant pool of under-utilised drivers. There are 2500 drivers and 850 buses. Even if everybody only worked an average of 31 hours a week, that would be enough to keep all the buses on the road 13 hours a day. (31 hours a week *2500 drivers /850 buses /7 days in the week = 13)

I'm pretty sure that DB are in constant negotiations with the NTA but anything involving public funds is never as simple as perhaps operating your service was for example.

That doesn't change the fact that the NTA are responsible for setting service levels and not DB.

As for BE - there are pages and pages of threads here of people criticising BE for operating a service that required large amounts of overtime as normal practice - I don't think that is the road to go down for DB. Better to deliver an enhanced off-peak schedule using normal rosters.

Operating a large PSO network with multiple depots I would suggest is not a simple as you make out. It's significantly different to operating a single route as you did. I'm quite sure that there are plenty of inefficiencies that could be eliminated but that will require further negotiations with the transport unions - it's not going to happen overnight.

antoinolachtnai

lxflyer wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that DB are in constant negotiations with the NTA but anything involving public funds is never as simple as perhaps operating your service was for example.

A bus service is a really simple thing. The problem with my service was that Dublin Bus decided that they would do everything they could to screw it up, in their usual beggar-thy-neighbour, cack-handed style.

As for BE - there are pages and pages of threads here of people criticising BE for operating a service that required large amounts of overtime as normal practice - I don't think that is the road to go down for DB. Better to deliver an enhanced off-peak schedule using normal rosters.

Bus drivers being available to do overtime to provide flexibility over the annual cycle and to respond to peaks in demand is part of the normal function of a bus company.

Operating a large PSO network with multiple depots I would suggest is not a simple as you make out. It's significantly different to operating a single route as you did. I'm quite sure that there are plenty of inefficiencies that could be eliminated but that will require further negotiations with the transport unions - it's not going to happen overnight.

No one expects things to happen overnight. This has been going on for at least 15 years now.

I am saying that what is going on makes no sense in light of the number of buses and number of drivers.

Roll on 2019 when the whole thing is going to have to go out to tender.

LXFlyer

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be some overtime. It is inevitable.

But operating an off-peak element of a city PSO bus service on the basis of using drivers sitting around on a standby basis to operate reliefs and thereby requiring overtime as another poster suggested is not the solution.

The solution is providing an improved off-peak timetable and higher service levels on an integrated roster as part of the normal duties.

antoinolachtnai

lxflyer wrote: »

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be some overtime. It is inevitable.

Then we are agreed on that.

But operating an off-peak element of a city PSO bus service on the basis of using drivers sitting around on a standby basis to operate reliefs and thereby requiring overtime is not the solution.

Why would they have to be sitting around? At any hour of the day after 9.30 am there are drivers who are already in their buses and driving, getting ready to come off duties around the peak times. It is a matter of utilising buses that are already on the road for an hour longer.

Why would drivers be paid overtime if they are only working on average less than 31 hours a week?

The solution is providing an improved timetable and higher service levels on an integrated roster as part of the normal duties.

Sure, that should be done too. But you always need flexibility. That is what makes running a bus service not-simple. If you do everything with fixed year-round rosters then it should be very simple indeed. But after 30 years in existence Dublin Bus can't even do that much.

Cookie_Monster

lxflyer wrote: »

The only changes that weren't implemented were the western and southern orbital routes and the routes serving Swords and North County Dublin.

I don't think it is necessarily a bad thing to revisit this now, considering the impact that LUAS cross-city will have. Some routes may no longer be needed in the same form as at present.

The NTA have finally recognised that, unless significant government funding is provided for additional rail infrastructure, in the meantime the bus will remain the workhorse of our public transport network.

It's eight years since the Deloitte Report was published and Dublin is changing significantly - and LUAS cross-city is a major part of that. Bear in mind also that the NTA had only started out at that time, and had no great involvement in the Network Direct project.

I don't think it is unreasonable to have another review. Network Direct was at a time when the economy was slumping and there was significant over-capacity. Now things are on the up and capacity is badly needed along with more orbital routes in particular.

yeah, I was just being facetious... but surely the NTA are experts in the field at this stage, it's pretty much their exact remit is it not, why outsource it yet again?

LXFlyer

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Why would they have to be sitting around? At any hour of the day after 9.30 am there are drivers who are already in their buses and driving, getting ready to come off duties around the peak times. It is a matter of utilising buses that are already on the road for an hour longer.

Without a detailed analysis and understanding of the individual rosters and the agreed rules governing them, neither of us is going to be able to say how feasible that is, both in terms of agreed work practices and practical implementation.

As I said I would fully expect that there are inefficiencies there that could be improved upon, and with long routes in particular getting the maximum driving hours out of staff becomes more difficult.

I suspect this is significantly more complex than you suggest.

LXFlyer

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

yeah, I was just being facetious... but surely the NTA are experts in the field at this stage, it's pretty much their exact remit is it not, why outsource it yet again?

Do you really think that they have the staff and internal expertise to this?

The PSO section is very small as I understand it in terms of staffing - with things like this you are generally best to bring in people who do this professionally and can give examples of best practice.

It's one thing doing small reviews of local Bus Eireann/Rural Link PSO networks - it's another thing looking at the entire city bus network.

antoinolachtnai

lxflyer wrote: »

Without a detailed analysis and understanding of the individual rosters and the agreed rules governing them, neither of us is going to be able to say how feasible that is, both in terms of agreed work practices and practical implementation.

As I said I would fully expect that there are inefficiencies there that could be improved upon, and with long routes in particular getting the maximum driving hours out of staff becomes more difficult.

Who is talking about maximum hours? I am talking about the expectation that everybody have 31-hour of work to do each week. That isn't too hard.

The very basic figures above indicate that the lead is being swung at Dublin Bus.

I suspect this is significantly more complex than you suggest.

I didn't say it was simple. But that's why Dublin Bus has 'management'. The well compensated management group is supposed to be the fountain of knowledge and experience that can sort these problems out. If they can't sort it out, we need to get someone else.

antoinolachtnai

lxflyer wrote: »

However, the NTA are now responsible for dictating service levels on PSO services in Dublin, no longer Dublin Bus. They call the shots these days. Dublin Bus will obviously highlight issues with running times, loadings etc., but the NTA are responsible for approving service levels to be provided and providing the necessary funding to do so.

It is worth noting that even before the NTA began 'calling the shots', and even when the service was flooded with subsidies, the service was very very bad.

dfx-

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Why would they have to be sitting around? At any hour of the day after 9.30 am there are drivers who are already in their buses and driving, getting ready to come off duties around the peak times. It is a matter of utilising buses that are already on the road for an hour longer.

Any hour of the day? All those drivers are gone home by 7pm. That's just on a weekday too. How does it resolve the OP's capacity issue on a Sunday evening?

This idea of reliefs or working with what they already have is nonsense.

antoinolachtnai

dfx- wrote: »

Any hour of the day? All those drivers are gone home by 7pm. That's just on a weekday too. How does it resolve the OP's capacity issue on a Sunday evening?

This idea of reliefs or working with what they already have is nonsense.

Drivers are on the road less than 30 hours a week on average at present. There are plenty drivers. For Sundays? There are two shifts on most routes even with the very light timetable and it would be easy to add more flexibility by changing the roster as the Sunday schedule is ramped up.

The long division doesn't lie. There are loads of drivers and they have tens of thousands of spare hours available off-peak.

Stephen15

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Drivers are on the road less than 30 hours a week on average at present. There are plenty drivers. For Sundays? There are two shifts on most routes even with the very light timetable and it would be easy to add more flexibility by changing the roster as the Sunday schedule is ramped up.

The long division doesn't lie. There are loads of drivers and they have tens of thousands of spare hours available off-peak.

I personally aswell that Saturday timetables should be the same as weekday timetables especially off peak if anything frequency off peak should increased.

LXFlyer

Stephen15 wrote: »

I personally aswell that Saturday timetables should be the same as weekday timetables especially off peak if anything frequency off peak should increased.

You don't need the same service on Saturdays as during the week by any stretch of the imagination. Early morning traffic is tiny by comparison.

Peak loading time on Saturdays is from roughly 12:00 until 19:00 and that's when you need the main focus of the service.

antoinolachtnai

Do you have documentary evidence showing that Dublin Bus offered to increase the level of service without any additional cost In terms of subsidy and without requiring any extra vehicles, and that the NTA refused?

thomasj

Standing at Essex quay since 8.10 and two 39as have passed full. With the next one due in 20 minutes resorted to getting the 70 to castaheany . Crazy how packed those 2 buses were !

LXFlyer

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Do you have documentary evidence showing that Dublin Bus offered to increase the level of service without any additional cost In terms of subsidy and without requiring any extra vehicles, and that the NTA refused?

I never made that claim so I'm not sure why you're asking me that (I assume that was aimed at me)?

I stated that the NTA specify service levels on all PSO routes. That's not Dublin Bus' responsibility as the operator anymore.

antoinolachtnai

lxflyer wrote: »

I never made that claim so I'm not sure why you're asking me that.

I stated that the NTA specify service levels on all PSO routes. That's not Dublin Bus' responsibility as the operator anymore.

So who is managing these services?