Dublin bus capacity issues off peak

thomasj

Anyone else finding this occuring more and more often given the increase in passenger numbers and increasing pressure on limited resources?

Last night at 8.30pm both the 39 and 39a coming from the city had to skip stops after the quays due to being too full.

This is happening though more often than not and I've found in the recent weeks that on quite a few occasions I've found myself standing at the front door area , or even unable to get on the bus as there was no room.

The 39a is not a great route and the times they run every 20 minutes such as evenings and weekends, you find buses to be packed to capacity. 6.30pm is too early for it to running at a 20 minute frequency from the city.

I've emailed Dublin bus and they have said that they are reviewing plans on increasing services at the weekend, but they haven't got the resources to resolve the evening issues.

Anyone have any experience on this on other routes?

loyatemu

thomasj wrote: »

Anyone else finding this occuring more and more often given the increase in passenger numbers and increasing pressure on limited resources?

Last night at 8.30pm both the 39 and 39a coming from the city had to skip stops after the quays due to being too full.

This is happening though more often than not and I've found in the recent weeks that on quite a few occasions I've found myself standing at the front door area , or even unable to get on the bus as there was no room.

The 39a is not a great route and the times they run every 20 minutes such as evenings and weekends, you find buses to be packed to capacity. 6.30pm is too early for it to running at a 20 minute frequency from the city.

I've emailed Dublin bus and they have said that they are reviewing plans on increasing services at the weekend, but they haven't got the resources to resolve the evening issues.

Anyone have any experience on this on other routes?

Forward it onto the NTA maybe?

CIARAN_BOYLE

On my route there is a problem that every so often a gang of 70 foreign students will get on one bus from city centre to the terminus and there will be no availability for anyone else to get on so they must wait til the next bus.
You could add capacity but that's not needed most of the time. There should be a way to incentivise dublinbus into adding flexible capacity to the route. That is to say adding the ability to run an unscheduled service when the route is overlaoded. The problem is they don't get the farebox if they do that so theres no point.

Dyr

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

On my route there is a problem that every so often a gang of 70 foreign students will get on one bus from city centre to the terminus and there will be no availability for anyone else to get on so they must wait til the next bus.

Problem is that the cheap skate language schools are using public transport as private hire and causing chaos in the summer. Dublin bus are happy enough as they're making coin off it

Only public transport system that can handle those numbers is a metro

ArmaniJeanss

thomasj wrote: »

Anyone else finding this occuring more and more often given the increase in passenger numbers and increasing pressure on limited resources?

Last night at 8.30pm both the 39 and 39a coming from the city had to skip stops after the quays due to being too full.

This is happening though more often than not and I've found in the recent weeks that on quite a few occasions I've found myself standing at the front door area , or even unable to get on the bus as there was no room.

The 39a is not a great route and the times they run every 20 minutes such as evenings and weekends, you find buses to be packed to capacity. 6.30pm is too early for it to running at a 20 minute frequency from the city.

I've emailed Dublin bus and they have said that they are reviewing plans on increasing services at the weekend, but they haven't got the resources to resolve the evening issues.

Anyone have any experience on this on other routes?

I was on that 39 last night got on around 8.30 stoneybatter, annoyingly overcrowded for an offpeak journey. Theres a hole in the timetable between 8pm and 8.20 from stoneybatter area, never seems to be any 39/39a/70 due around then, so the next one that does arrive is overcrowded and travelling slow. I always try to get to the stop around 7.50/7.55 when there tends to be 3 or 4 buses.

punisher5112

Bambi wrote: »

Problem is that the cheap skate language schools are using public transport as private hire and causing chaos in the summer. Dublin bus are happy enough as they're making coin off it

Only public transport system that can handle those numbers is a metro

Not so as anything over 45 in numbers must hire out or be split up. Its around that number.

CIARAN_BOYLE

punisher5112 wrote: »

Not so as anything over 45 in numbers must hire out or be split up. Its around that number.

Doesn't happen in practice. Bus drivers have no problem letting 70 people on at the one stop who all pay with separate travel leap card. It doesn't matter that they all get on at the one stop and all get off at the same stop. As far as the bus drivers are concerned they are all individual separate paying customers.

Dyr

punisher5112 wrote: »

Not so as anything over 45 in numbers must hire out or be split up. Its around that number.

Never happens though. It all works out fine for Dublin Bus and said schools. Only the tax payer who gets screwed.

schemingbohemia

Bambi wrote: »

Never happens though. It all works out fine for Dublin Bus and said schools. Only the tax payer who gets screwed.

They're customers just like you. It's just unlucky that they all get on the one bus.

Dyr

schemingbohemia wrote: »

They're customers just like you. It's just unlucky that they all get on the one bus.

No matey they're not. I'm a taxpayer who is subsidizing public transport and also shelling out four figures on a yearly card. They are companies who've figured out that its cheaper to buy leap cards en masse and game the system than to pay for private hire coaches for their groups.

bk

Bambi wrote: »

No matey they're not. I'm a taxpayer who is subsidizing public transport and also shelling out four figures on a yearly card. They are companies who've figured out that its cheaper to buy leap cards en masse and game the system than to pay for private hire coaches for their groups.

I'm sorry, but that is a terrible attitude!!

Public transport isn't just for regular commuters! It is also for irregular commuters, tourists and foreign students.

As long as they are paying a fare, then they are perfectly entitled to use the service.

Tourists and foreign students bring incredible amounts of revenue to our country every year. Many peoples jobs are completely reliant on such visitors and allowing them to use our public transport is a very small price to pay in return.

After all, any time I've been to Spain, etc. I've used their highly subsidised public transport and I'm sure you have too!

BTW Fortunately the NTA and government don't have the same attitude as you and they do a lot to encourage visitors use of public transport with tourist leap cards and for foreign language students the Dublin Trainee LEAP Card which offers foreign students 1 to 4 weeks of unlimited travel in the Dublin short hop zone.

BBTW I've been really impressed by the few times I've seen these foreign students boarding DB buses with this card, with it's flat fare. I've seen 40 students board quicker then the 4 to 5 local travellers who boarded at the same time with mixture of cash and driver interaction leap. It shows how good things could be if we move to zero driver interaction, leap only, flat fares.

Dyr

bk wrote: »

I'm sorry, but that is a terrible attitude!!

Public transport isn't just for regular commuters! It is also for irregular commuters, tourists and foreign students.

Its not for private companies to use as their own shuttle service.

if I was piling a thousand students a day onto a spanish bus route you might have a point. But I'm not and you don't.

CIARAN_BOYLE

schemingbohemia wrote: »

They're customers just like you. It's just unlucky that they all get on the one bus.

As the person who brought up foreign students can I just say that the only reason that I brought it up was because I feel that dublinbus need more dispatchable capacity. Its all well and good to run a bus every 20 minutes, but if one doesn't let anyone on because there is 70 foreign students and the second is full because it has all the people that missed the first it means I could be waiting an hour for the third bus to come.
This should be fixed by having a dispatchable reserve of busses (perhaps sitting in city centre) that can be added onto a route as needed.
Problem is there is little incentive for Dublin Bus to do this at the moment as the NTA gets the fare box and won't offer a bonus for extra services.

thomasj

Same story tonight! 8.30ish , 39a skipping stops along the quays due to being too full.

Thankfully the 39 after it had room .

bk

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Problem is there is little incentive for Dublin Bus to do this at the moment as the NTA gets the fare box and won't offer a bonus for extra services.

Actually that isn't true, Dublin Bus gets the fare box. The subsidy that the NTA gives to Dublin Bus is for all services overall, not for a certain number of departures, etc.

bk

Bambi wrote: »

Its not for private companies to use as their own shuttle service.

if I was piling a thousand students a day onto a spanish bus route you might have a point. But I'm not and you don't.

You don't get to choose who does and doesn't get to go on public buses, it is as simple as that. If they pay the fare, then they have every right to be there.

And clearly both DB and NTA are happy for them to be there as they go out of their way to make it easier for them with a dedicated Leap card.

CIARAN_BOYLE

bk wrote: »

Actually that isn't true, Dublin Bus gets the fare box. The subsidy that the NTA gives to Dublin Bus is for all services overall, not for a certain number of departures, etc.

Really? I thought dublin bus and the luas worked on the same system. Surprised it's two different systems. Then again dublin bus was around before NTA and luas.

bk

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Really? I thought dublin bus and the luas worked on the same system. Surprised it's two different systems. Then again dublin bus was around before NTA and luas.

Yes, as you say, it is because DB/BE/IR (it is the same for them all) were all around for far longer then the NTA and this is how they always operated, so the NTA had to accept it.

I do think the NTA will gradually move to this model, as then tender out routes, but that is for the future.

n97 mini

Got the 21.15 67 tonight. Standing room only by the Workmans. Parkgate St was a push to get everyone on.

thomasj

n97 mini wrote:

Got the 21.15 67 tonight. Standing room only by the Workmans. Parkgate St was a push to get everyone on.

So much for no demand for Sunday evening maynooth line services.

I love Sean nos

Bambi wrote: »

Its not for private companies to use as their own shuttle service.

if I was piling a thousand students a day onto a spanish bus route you might have a point. But I'm not and you don't.

Does your employer provide a private bus?

AngryLips

Bambi wrote: »

Its not for private companies to use as their own shuttle service.

if I was piling a thousand students a day onto a spanish bus route you might have a point. But I'm not and you don't.

I too have always felt that what Dublin is lacking is an apartheid bus service.

antoinolachtnai

Same thing happens with DART services and the Number 4 if there is a reduction in service, for example at the weekend. Their customers move over to the No. 4 bus during a stoppage and the regular passengers are left high and dry.

There is plenty of spare capacity in terms of buses and drivers available at that time of day. There is no reason why it can't be dispatched when needed.

Off-peak services on these types of routes are (or should be) highly profitable. You should be able to operate a bus service for 60 euros an hour and really for less for extra services. If you have more than forty passengers on the bus, it is certainly all profit after that. There is no reason (other than bad operations) not to find a way to cope with this type of demand.

dublinstevie

antoinolachtnai wrote:

Off-peak services on these types of routes are (or should be) highly profitable. You should be able to operate a bus service for 60 euros an hour and really for less for extra services. If you have more than forty passengers on the bus, it is certainly all profit after that. There is no reason (other than bad operations) not to find a way to cope with this type of demand.

antoinolachtnai wrote:

There is plenty of spare capacity in terms of buses and drivers available at that time of day. There is no reason why it can't be dispatched when needed.

antoinolachtnai wrote:

Same thing happens with DART services and the Number 4 if there is a reduction in service, for example at the weekend. Their customers move over to the No. 4 bus during a stoppage and the regular passengers are left high and dry.

NTA rules dictate that DB cant do that,the company want to add extra capacity on busy corridors but are constantly refused permission to do so from the NTA

antoinolachtnai

Providing extra services off peak is not an example of adding capacity.

If Dublin Bus management isn't able to deal with their financier and customer, then they need to sort that out.

I find it hard to believe that NTA has refused permission to operate profitable off-peak services. Maybe it's true, but I would want to see some documentary evidence before I would believe it.

And surely Dublin Bus could just refuse to honour Irish Rail tickets, if they don't have the capacity to cope with their own passengers for some regulatory reason.

The reality is that it is just chaos on wheels. There is no rhyme or reason to it.

dfx-

n97 mini wrote: »

Got the 21.15 67 tonight. Standing room only by the Workmans. Parkgate St was a push to get everyone on.

Sunday evenings through the college term is crush loads on a lot of routes. The 4, 7, 11, 39s, 46A, 145, 15, 16 (though that's a 24/7 problem), 27, 40, 13.

But if it doesn't happen between 7-9am on weekdays on the major routes, there's no desire to do anything about it.

bk

dublinstevie wrote: »

NTA rules dictate that DB cant do that,the company want to add extra capacity on busy corridors but are constantly refused permission to do so from the NTA

That isn't true at all. The NTA has no problem at all with relief services being offered when needed due to demand and in fact encourage it.

Just look at the large number of reliefs Aircoach and the other privates are putting on at the moment due to the strikes.

Some people have some really weird about what the NTA does, they often seem to get blamed for the failings of others that has nothing to do with them!

punisher5112

bk wrote: »

That isn't true at all. The NTA has no problem at all with relief services being offered when needed due to demand and in fact encourage it.

Just look at the large number of reliefs Aircoach and the other privates are putting on at the moment due to the strikes.

Some people have some really weird about what the NTA does, they often seem to get blamed for the failings of others that has nothing to do with them!

They have to run at the same departure time.

bk

punisher5112 wrote: »

They have to run at the same departure time.

Yes on commercial routes, but not on PSO routes like DB.

punisher5112

bk wrote: »

Yes on commercial routes, but not on PSO routes like DB.

Db doesn't have enough vehicles or drivers even with all the new recruits.

antoinolachtnai

There are plenty vehicles off-peak. When you have a pool of drivers you should be able to schedule extra journeys outside the peak time. I would be very surprised if all drivers have their full working week utilised at present.

There are 2500 drivers for 850 buses, after all. This represents 39*2500 = 97500 hours of labour a week, allowing for holidays, training and absence. That is enough to operate every single bus in the fleet for 114 hours per week which is 16 hours a day. You can run a lot of services and make a lot of money with that scale of operations.

Stephen15

Bambi wrote: »

Problem is that the cheap skate language schools are using public transport as private hire and causing chaos in the summer. Dublin bus are happy enough as they're making coin off it

Only public transport system that can handle those numbers is a metro

So are Irish schools all cheapskates for not organizing private buses to bring their students to and from school this really sorry annoys as some students on buses still use cash for some bizarre reason I cannot for the life of me understand if was in charge of the NTA or DB I would ban all cash transcations from next week onwards.

Isambard

Hole in the timetable? No bus from 8 til 20 past? There'd be a riot in North Cork if that happened

bk

punisher5112 wrote: »

Db doesn't have enough vehicles or drivers even with all the new recruits.

That is peak, this thread is about off-peak services. DB has plenty of buses available off-peak (only 40% of the DB fleet operates off-peak). Obviously rosters changes would be required to make more drivers available off-peak.

But it is more of a culture at the company. Inflexibility, only operate the schedule. Don't push on reliefs when and where needed.

Non of this can be blamed on the NTA.

antoinolachtnai

The experience I have, too, is that if you offer a service on either side of the peak, with lower loadings and a bit more comfort, customers will gradually move to it and spread out the peak.

There are really serious off-peak gaps. For example, there is no bus that will get you from Swords to the airport in time to board the first scheduled flight (never mind if it's your job to de-ice the wings o a cold morning).

howiya

I was at the match Sunday and went to college green for a half 6 bus home. Most buses pulling in there at the two different stops were pretty fully loaded by the time they were leaving. As were the buses passing through College Green

Then yesterday morning I went to top up my leap card and realised I had more money on it than I thought. It took a while because I don't use the bus 7 days a week most weeks but it eventually dawned on me that because of leap fare capping I wasn't paying anything to use the three buses I took on Sunday.

I know this thread is about off peak services in general but there's probably a good few journeys on DB on a sunday that the passenger isn't paying for which would act as a disincentive to DB for providing extra services

antoinolachtnai

For sure, the overall fare capping concept is chaotic and haphazard. But there is still a lot of margin.

dfx-

bk wrote: »

That is peak, this thread is about off-peak services. DB has plenty of buses available off-peak (only 40% of the DB fleet operates off-peak). Obviously rosters changes would be required to make more drivers available off-peak.

But it is more of a culture at the company. Inflexibility, only operate the schedule. Don't push on reliefs when and where needed.

Non of this can be blamed on the NTA.

Reliefs? The services should be on the timetable and this is down to the NTA, they determine the service level to be provided.

The issue in the OP stems from a structural problem with the routes. The busy-ness of the 39s on the southside cause the problem the OP then experiences later on down the route. They bunch with the Burlington Road services and this creates a huge gap, then three buses together, then a huge gap.

It has been discussed here for the 39s before: lxflyer suggested a regular extra 39A departure off peak from 20mins or 30 minute frequency to a 15 minute frequency. But that is only one route in one direction from one garage. There are multiple examples of it.

It does not work by 'being flexible' or having 'reliefs', in other words making it up as they go along. It's all on the NTA since they want to call the shots and hold the purse strings.

antoinolachtnai

Flexibility is in the nature of the business. You have to run when the passengers are there.

Is there documentary evidence of this sustained NTA intransigence?

I think it is more likely that the NTA doesn't want to schedule a load of services that would only be lightly used for large portions of the year. If the management feel the same way about flexibility as you do, then maybe that is understandable.

Has the NTA refused permission to run an early morning service from Swords to the Airport too?

Cookie_Monster

They have to run at the same departure time.

Can't even get normal DB services to leave/run on time, what hope for additional reliefs?

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

That is peak, this thread is about off-peak services. DB has plenty of buses available off-peak (only 40% of the DB fleet operates off-peak). Obviously rosters changes would be required to make more drivers available off-peak.

But it is more of a culture at the company. Inflexibility, only operate the schedule. Don't push on reliefs when and where needed.

Non of this can be blamed on the NTA.

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Flexibility is in the nature of the business. You have to run when the passengers are there.

Is there documentary evidence of this sustained NTA intransigence?

I think it is more likely that the NTA doesn't want to schedule a load of services that would only be lightly used for large portions of the year. If the management feel the same way about flexibility as you do, then maybe that is understandable.

Has the NTA refused permission to run an early morning service from Swords to the Airport too?

It is true to say that most of the current service patterns across the Dublin city PSO bus network date back to the 2009-2011 implementation of Network Direct by Dublin Bus, which was principally down to them and rubber stamped by the NTA.

However, the NTA are now responsible for dictating service levels on PSO services in Dublin, no longer Dublin Bus. They call the shots these days. Dublin Bus will obviously highlight issues with running times, loadings etc., but the NTA are responsible for approving service levels to be provided and providing the necessary funding to do so.

The notion that there are lots of drivers sitting around available to operate potential reliefs in the evening off-peak is nonsense. Even if there were, they would have to be paid overtime - something we are all criticising Bus Eireann for.

While I would suggest that there is a case for having some buses available in the city centre during the evening peak on busy cross-city routes in order to fill in gaps in service, that is not the solution in the off-peak. Off-peak capacity shortfalls need to be addressed by increasing scheduled service levels and not by having adhoc resources sitting around in the off chance that they might be used.

What is needed in the off-peak is an overhaul of schedules to meet the growing demand, e.g. increase the 39a to every 12-15 minutes in the evening. That will require additional drivers, and while new drivers are coming out of the driving school, many of them, and indeed many of the additional buses delivered to date, have been required to maintain existing service levels on routes due to the extended running times being experienced due to the LUAS cross-city works.

Some routes have seen improvements, but it has been a glacially slow process, and I personally suspect that the NTA are waiting for the LUAS works to come to a conclusion and see how bus times improve as a result before allocating additional resources to services.

I also understand that the NTA have commissioned transport consultants to carry out a full independent network review of the Dublin city bus network post-LUAS cross-city, to be carried out this summer, and I would imagine that will include looking at service levels.

As for the Airport well I've long felt that the design of PSO services to it has been an absolute disgrace. Historically Dublin Bus showed no real interest in it. It didn't help that the DAA would charge them for operating any additional services to/from the airport.

But the NTA now have a chance to change that. A full network of PSO services to/from North Dublin should be in place - at a minimum the 4, 27b, 33a, 33b and 140 should all be extended to serve the Airport, and they and the other PSO routes serving the airport should have operating hours that match employment shifts there. The focus should be on facilitating commuting habits of employees, with passengers benefitting as a result.

Cookie_Monster

lxflyer wrote: »

I also understand that the NTA have commissioned transport consultants to carry out a full independent network review of the Dublin city bus network post-LUAS cross-city, to be carried out this summer, and I would imagine that will include looking at service levels.

Oh yay. Network Indirect MkII!
have all the original suggestions even been finished yet? Sure the 7 only got transitioned in the last few months.

LXFlyer

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Oh yay. Network Indirect MkII!
have all the original suggestions even been finished yet? Sure the 7 only got transitioned in the last few months.

The only changes that weren't implemented were the western and southern orbital routes and the routes serving Swords and North County Dublin.

I don't think it is necessarily a bad thing to revisit this now, considering the impact that LUAS cross-city will have. Some routes may no longer be needed in the same form as at present.

The NTA have finally recognised that, unless significant government funding is provided for additional rail infrastructure, in the meantime the bus will remain the workhorse of our public transport network.

It's eight years since the Deloitte Report was published and Dublin is changing significantly - and LUAS cross-city is a major part of that. Bear in mind also that the NTA had only started out at that time, and had no great involvement in the Network Direct project.

I don't think it is unreasonable to have another review. Network Direct was at a time when the economy was slumping and there was significant over-capacity. Now things are on the up and capacity is badly needed along with more orbital routes in particular.

antoinolachtnai

lxflyer wrote: »

It is true to say that most of the current service patterns across the Dublin city PSO bus network date back to the 2009-2011 implementation of Network Direct by Dublin Bus, which was principally down to them and rubber stamped by the NTA.

However, the NTA are now responsible for dictating service levels on PSO services in Dublin, no longer Dublin Bus. They call the shots these days. Dublin Bus will obviously highlight issues with running times, loadings etc., but the NTA are responsible for approving service levels to be provided and providing the necessary funding to do so.

Then DB needs to work with them and negotiate.

The notion that there are lots of drivers sitting around available to operate potential reliefs in the evening off-peak is nonsense. Even if there were, they would have to be paid overtime - something we are all criticising Bus Eireann for.

1. I don't know anyone who is criticising BE for paying overtime.

2. the numbers don't lie. There appears to be a giant pool of under-utilised drivers. There are 2500 drivers and 850 buses. Even if everybody only worked an average of 31 hours a week, that would be enough to keep all the buses on the road 13 hours a day. (31 hours a week *2500 drivers /850 buses /7 days in the week = 13)

LXFlyer

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Then DB needs to work with them and negotiate.



1. I don't know anyone who is criticising BE for paying overtime.

2. the numbers don't lie. There appears to be a giant pool of under-utilised drivers. There are 2500 drivers and 850 buses. Even if everybody only worked an average of 31 hours a week, that would be enough to keep all the buses on the road 13 hours a day. (31 hours a week *2500 drivers /850 buses /7 days in the week = 13)

I'm pretty sure that DB are in constant negotiations with the NTA but anything involving public funds is never as simple as perhaps operating your service was for example.

That doesn't change the fact that the NTA are responsible for setting service levels and not DB.

As for BE - there are pages and pages of threads here of people criticising BE for operating a service that required large amounts of overtime as normal practice - I don't think that is the road to go down for DB. Better to deliver an enhanced off-peak schedule using normal rosters.

Operating a large PSO network with multiple depots I would suggest is not a simple as you make out. It's significantly different to operating a single route as you did. I'm quite sure that there are plenty of inefficiencies that could be eliminated but that will require further negotiations with the transport unions - it's not going to happen overnight.

antoinolachtnai

lxflyer wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that DB are in constant negotiations with the NTA but anything involving public funds is never as simple as perhaps operating your service was for example.

A bus service is a really simple thing. The problem with my service was that Dublin Bus decided that they would do everything they could to screw it up, in their usual beggar-thy-neighbour, cack-handed style.

As for BE - there are pages and pages of threads here of people criticising BE for operating a service that required large amounts of overtime as normal practice - I don't think that is the road to go down for DB. Better to deliver an enhanced off-peak schedule using normal rosters.

Bus drivers being available to do overtime to provide flexibility over the annual cycle and to respond to peaks in demand is part of the normal function of a bus company.

Operating a large PSO network with multiple depots I would suggest is not a simple as you make out. It's significantly different to operating a single route as you did. I'm quite sure that there are plenty of inefficiencies that could be eliminated but that will require further negotiations with the transport unions - it's not going to happen overnight.

No one expects things to happen overnight. This has been going on for at least 15 years now.

I am saying that what is going on makes no sense in light of the number of buses and number of drivers.

Roll on 2019 when the whole thing is going to have to go out to tender.

LXFlyer

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be some overtime. It is inevitable.

But operating an off-peak element of a city PSO bus service on the basis of using drivers sitting around on a standby basis to operate reliefs and thereby requiring overtime as another poster suggested is not the solution.

The solution is providing an improved off-peak timetable and higher service levels on an integrated roster as part of the normal duties.

antoinolachtnai

lxflyer wrote: »

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be some overtime. It is inevitable.

Then we are agreed on that.

But operating an off-peak element of a city PSO bus service on the basis of using drivers sitting around on a standby basis to operate reliefs and thereby requiring overtime is not the solution.

Why would they have to be sitting around? At any hour of the day after 9.30 am there are drivers who are already in their buses and driving, getting ready to come off duties around the peak times. It is a matter of utilising buses that are already on the road for an hour longer.

Why would drivers be paid overtime if they are only working on average less than 31 hours a week?

The solution is providing an improved timetable and higher service levels on an integrated roster as part of the normal duties.

Sure, that should be done too. But you always need flexibility. That is what makes running a bus service not-simple. If you do everything with fixed year-round rosters then it should be very simple indeed. But after 30 years in existence Dublin Bus can't even do that much.

Cookie_Monster

lxflyer wrote: »

The only changes that weren't implemented were the western and southern orbital routes and the routes serving Swords and North County Dublin.

I don't think it is necessarily a bad thing to revisit this now, considering the impact that LUAS cross-city will have. Some routes may no longer be needed in the same form as at present.

The NTA have finally recognised that, unless significant government funding is provided for additional rail infrastructure, in the meantime the bus will remain the workhorse of our public transport network.

It's eight years since the Deloitte Report was published and Dublin is changing significantly - and LUAS cross-city is a major part of that. Bear in mind also that the NTA had only started out at that time, and had no great involvement in the Network Direct project.

I don't think it is unreasonable to have another review. Network Direct was at a time when the economy was slumping and there was significant over-capacity. Now things are on the up and capacity is badly needed along with more orbital routes in particular.

yeah, I was just being facetious... but surely the NTA are experts in the field at this stage, it's pretty much their exact remit is it not, why outsource it yet again?

LXFlyer

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Why would they have to be sitting around? At any hour of the day after 9.30 am there are drivers who are already in their buses and driving, getting ready to come off duties around the peak times. It is a matter of utilising buses that are already on the road for an hour longer.

Without a detailed analysis and understanding of the individual rosters and the agreed rules governing them, neither of us is going to be able to say how feasible that is, both in terms of agreed work practices and practical implementation.

As I said I would fully expect that there are inefficiencies there that could be improved upon, and with long routes in particular getting the maximum driving hours out of staff becomes more difficult.

I suspect this is significantly more complex than you suggest.

LXFlyer

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

yeah, I was just being facetious... but surely the NTA are experts in the field at this stage, it's pretty much their exact remit is it not, why outsource it yet again?

Do you really think that they have the staff and internal expertise to this?

The PSO section is very small as I understand it in terms of staffing - with things like this you are generally best to bring in people who do this professionally and can give examples of best practice.

It's one thing doing small reviews of local Bus Eireann/Rural Link PSO networks - it's another thing looking at the entire city bus network.