Luas - Lucan Line

marno21

TII mentioned during an Oireachtas Committee meeting recently that work on a Luas line to Lucan will begin planning in 2017.

Starting from scratch.

https://www.kildarestreet.com/committees/?id=2017-03-22a.9

average_runner

marno21 wrote: »

TII mentioned during an Oireachtas Committee meeting recently that work on a Luas line to Lucan will begin planning in 2017.

Starting from scratch.

https://www.kildarestreet.com/committees/?id=2017-03-22a.9

Disaster. Means a cut in buses and a tram that goes half way around the world.

Then again if it's like the swimming pool promise, we might see it in 40 years

Grandeeod

No shock here either.

BonnieSituation

I haven't opened it. So I'm guessing it mentions an alignment that goes through Ballyfermot and then swings south to the Naas Road for no real reason?

BonnieSituation

Dara Calleary complaining we are "building fewer kms of road in 2025 than we are now and we are building less than we were in 2008/09". Good Jesus, just pave the country already.

donvito99

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Dara Calleary complaining we are "building fewer kms of road in 2025 than we are now and we are building less than we were in 2008/09". Good Jesus, just pave the country already.

marno21

MOD:

Luas Lucan please lads. There's a thread on capital spending on roads in the Roads forum.

MJohnston

I believe this was the original potential route for Line F as it was known:



Personally, I'm glad this never went ahead, and I hope the presence of a completed Broombridge line changes their plans. Main problem I'd have with it is that it barely expands the PT coverage of the city, and doesn't even provide its own Park and Ride facility.

That said, I suppose the presence of the valley around the Liffey restricts possible alternative routes without expensive bridges.

L1011

The bit of the old plan I wanted to see most was the city centre bit - would actually give some idea of a tram network again. Ballyfermot spur of the existing Red line might also work standalone but the full route was going to be too slow to be useful for end to end trips.

cgcsb

Bit of a mad route, I'd be more inclined to use the Lucan QBC

LXFlyer

L1011 wrote: »

The bit of the old plan I wanted to see most was the city centre bit - would actually give some idea of a tram network again. Ballyfermot spur of the existing Red line might also work standalone but the full route was going to be too slow to be useful for end to end trips.

I cannot see that section on-street between Fatima and Trinity happening. It would cause traffic mayhem.

dazberry

lxflyer wrote:

I cannot see that section on-street between Fatima and Trinity happening. It would cause traffic mayhem.

There was a provision in the cross city luas plans for a set of points to connect to this line at college green. It's very telling that these have been omitted during construction.

fionnsci

What will this line contribute then if the city centre portion is unlikely and the Lucan part is a strange route? Is it in essence a new spur off the Red line? Or is there a sensible redesign that would be more beneficial?

BonnieSituation

The section of the line as far as Liffey Valley serves an area not currently serviced by any buses (bar the infrequent 239 which goes from LV to Blanch). So in that sense it's a relatively good choice.

From an interchange pov It should probably begin at Adamstown Railway station and then head down the Newcastle Road.

Linking with the Red Line is a good idea. But the manner in which it is happening (ie. down the Kylemore Road to Bluebell) makes a mockery of the route to the city).

It would be better if it continued on straight, down the Con Colbert/John's Road and connected with the Red line at Heuston.

A much better idea would then to subsequently extend the the Red Line with a Spur from James' Street down to Trinity/SSG or that general direction anyway say James' St, Thomas St, H=igh St, Nicholas St, Patrick St, Kevin St, Cuffe St SSSG. This would give the added bonus of a Green Line connection without the chaos of digging up Lord Edward/Dame/College Green. Again. As well as opening up another area in the city for possible future expansion.

strassenwo!f

It's very hard to see how it makes any sense to build a new tram line parallel to, and at a maximum 2.3 km from, what is planned to be a high-capacity, 4-track rapid railway line into the heart of the city.

BonnieSituation

strassenwo!f wrote: »

It's very hard to see how it makes any sense to build a new tram line parallel to, and at a maximum 2.3 km from, what is planned to be a high-capacity, 4-track rapid railway line into the heart of the city.

It's also hard to see why after 7 years that Kishoge station isn't open in West Dublin but ya know...

There's no point having a railway if you don't have stations open and you don't run trains on it. This is why we needed Dart Underground which you're more than familiar about.

Nothing in Ireland related to transport makes sense.

Don't forget these are the people that want to run Metro North onto the Green line, essentially replicating a service we have already going south.

average_runner

MJohnston wrote: »

I believe this was the original potential route for Line F as it was known:



Personally, I'm glad this never went ahead, and I hope the presence of a completed Broombridge line changes their plans. Main problem I'd have with it is that it barely expands the PT coverage of the city, and doesn't even provide its own Park and Ride facility.

That said, I suppose the presence of the valley around the Liffey restricts possible alternative routes without expensive bridges.

Some rough areas on that route, I stick to the bus, thank you

MJohnston

average_runner wrote: »

Some rough areas on that route, I stick to the bus, thank you

Okay...

Anyway, I've come to the layman's opinion that Broombridge could be used as a new hub for Luas/Metro lines running out as far as Maynooth or Ashbourne, without having to construct any additional city center infrastructure (or indeed in any built up area).

fionnsci

average_runner wrote: »

Some rough areas on that route, I stick to the bus, thank you

Heaven forbid we encourage investment in "rough areas" and connect them to major employment hubs.

average_runner

fionnsci wrote: »

Heaven forbid we encourage investment in "rough areas" and connect them to major employment hubs.

Yeah we tried that investment in boomsbridge, ask irish rail about the trouble since.


We don't want another red line.

MJohnston

average_runner wrote: »

Yeah we tried that investment in boomsbridge, ask irish rail about the trouble since.


We don't want another red line.

What investment was tried in Broombridge exactly? This is just silly, and you shouldn't say "we" when you hold a minority opinion.

wakka12

Why have Line F running parallel with the existing red line for so many stops when there are so many areas just directly south such as Terenure, Harolds cross, Drimnagh, Kimmage with no tram infrastructure anywhere near them

wakka12

It just makes me sad looking at plans like this because even with multiple theoretical proposed lines that will inevitably take decades to build *if* they even go ahead, and billions of euro later and then still large swathes of the city are poorly serviced by tram/metro

LXFlyer

wakka12 wrote: »

Why have Line F running parallel with the existing red line for so many stops when there are so many areas just directly south such as Terenure, Harolds cross, Drimnagh, Kimmage with no tram infrastructure anywhere near them

None of those areas are suitable for on-street rail infrastructure - the road space simply isn't there.

average_runner

MJohnston wrote: »

What investment was tried in Broombridge exactly? This is just silly, and you shouldn't say "we" when you hold a minority opinion.

Irish rail built a train station there. It gets attack most days, train windows smashed etc.

How do you know it's a minority opinion? Did you ask everyone?

Maybe ask people their opinion about the red line especially the ones that were assaulted on it or experience the drugs and alcohol issues on it.

MJohnston

average_runner wrote: »

Irish rail built a train station there. It gets attack most days, train windows smashed etc.

How do you know it's a minority opinion? Did you ask everyone?

Maybe ask people their opinion about the red line especially the ones that were assaulted on it or experience the drugs and alcohol issues on it.

Ah, so a railway stop built with minimal facilities nearly 30 years ago is your datapoint for why Broombridge and similar areas deserve no investment? No, look, that's not investment at all, investment is a process involving more than just a cursory railway platform and a couple of shelters.

It's about redeveloping the surrounding, mostly abandoned industrial area by stimulating commercial and residential construction, in a manner similar to how formerly dismal areas like the Docklands or Sandyford were completely rejuvenated. We need to create a SDZ in this area and truly invest in it. We've seen the start of this just a km up the tracks in Royal Canal Park and Ashtown.

You can keep your stories of constant vandalism, I've lived in and around this area for several years now, used the commuter rail services all the time, and things have changed greatly in the last ten years. I've also used the Red Line constantly and your stories there are just complete exaggerations.

And the Green Line extension to Broombridge is built, that's the proof that a majority wanted it.

wakka12

MJohnston wrote: »

Ah, so a railway stop built with minimal facilities nearly 30 years ago is your datapoint for why Broombridge and similar areas deserve no investment? No, look, that's not investment at all, investment is a process involving more than just a cursory railway platform and a couple of shelters.

It's about redeveloping the surrounding, mostly abandoned industrial area by stimulating commercial and residential construction, in a manner similar to how formerly dismal areas like the Docklands or Sandyford were completely rejuvenated. We need to create a SDZ in this area and truly invest in it. We've seen the start of this just a km up the tracks in Royal Canal Park and Ashtown.

You can keep your stories of constant vandalism, I've lived in and around this area for several years now, used the commuter rail services all the time, and things have changed greatly in the last ten years. I've also used the Red Line constantly and your stories there are just complete exaggerations.

And the Green Line extension to Broombridge is built, that's the proof that a majority wanted it.

Does that always mean the majority wanted it? The government might choose a tram route/stop because of economic reasons, efficiency reasons or many other reasons other than simply the majority of the public wanting a stop to be built there

L1011

wakka12 wrote: »

Why have Line F running parallel with the existing red line for so many stops when there are so many areas just directly south such as Terenure, Harolds cross, Drimnagh, Kimmage with no tram infrastructure anywhere near them

Because none of them are on the way to Lucan.

average_runner wrote: »

Irish rail built a train station there. It gets attack most days, train windows smashed etc.

Not for ten+ years.

MJohnston

wakka12 wrote: »

Does that always mean the majority wanted it? The government might choose a tram route/stop because of economic reasons, efficiency reasons or many other reasons other than simply the majority of the public wanting a stop to be built there

You raise a good point - who cares if a majority want it or don't? That's supposed to be the point of government, they should make decisions on our behalf because we aren't generally aware of all the facts for any given situation. For example, is anyone outside the catchment area of the Broombridge Luas extension going to want money spent on it? I'm sure it becomes decreasingly likely the further you get from benefitting from it, but then the exact same thing applies to any infrastructure project.

hmmm

Lucan needs better connections certainly, but once the line goes beyond Liffey Valley it's all a bit pointless. I suggest better to run a LUAS around Lucan and some neighbouring areas, connecting to Kishogue, Fonthill & Adamstown railway stations.

van_beano

hmmm wrote: »

Lucan needs better connections certainly, but once the line goes beyond Liffey Valley it's all a bit pointless. I suggest better to run a LUAS around Lucan and some neighbouring areas, connecting to Kishogue, Fonthill & Adamstown railway stations.

Why would it be pointless going beyond Liffey Valley? There's a massive population in South Lucan and there's further development in the pipeline in Kishogue / Clonburris. The population will be comparable to the Red Line beyond The Square with all that's in Citywest etc. or Green Line before Carrickmines.

SPDUB

lxflyer wrote: »

None of those areas are suitable for on-street rail infrastructure - the road space simply isn't there.

As someone who lives in those areas I believe what you mean is that keeping all the roads open for cars as well isn't possible

BonnieSituation

van_beano wrote: »

Why would it be pointless going beyond Liffey Valley? There's a massive population in South Lucan and there's further development in the pipeline in Kishogue / Clonburris. The population will be comparable to the Red Line beyond The Square with all that's in Citywest etc. or Green Line before Carrickmines.

i'd settle for Kishoge finally opening tbh

LXFlyer

SPDUB wrote: »

As someone who lives in those areas I believe what you mean is that keeping all the roads open for cars as well isn't possible

It's both - there are limits to the restrictions that you can put on private vehicles in the suburbs.

But there are plenty of roads within those areas that don't have enough road space for a bus lane and a general traffic lane in both directions.

On-street rail is not the solution in those areas.

Underground is the only proper solution.

veryangryman

Did a walk yesterday to Lucan via Ballyfermot... i dont know if theres room for the tracks through the village - can anyone get crayons out and point out how it would go through said place

BonnieSituation

veryangryman wrote: »

Did a walk yesterday to Lucan via Ballyfermot... i dont know if theres room for the tracks through the village - can anyone get crayons out and point out how it would go through said place

Lucan Village or Ballyfermot?

veryangryman

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Lucan Village or Ballyfermot?

Ballyfermot

BonnieSituation

Narrowing of footpaths and carparks for one. Plus the trams will share road space with other traffic. Personally I think it's It's unlikely to happen.

Central median of the N4 would be a better bet.

MJohnston

It'd almost certainly have to be shared with cars if it was above ground, which would be a mistake.

I'd agree the N4 median would be a better physical route, but it has the problem of being rather inaccessible to pedestrians, so it might be difficult to add stations on it.

I still think it's a good idea as a route though, lots of areas along it ripe for residential development, and most of the areas are largely unserved by rail (though Ballyfermot would definitely benefit from DART Line 2)

spacetweek

MJohnston wrote: »

I'd agree the N4 median would be a better physical route, but it has the problem of being rather inaccessible to pedestrians, so it might be difficult to add stations on it.

What median? That one-metre concrete barrier?
The N4 has bus lanes both ways as far as Islandbridge. Turn it into a rapid bus corridor. No need for Luas.

Run the Luas somewhere else. I'd start it at Liffey Valley and follow Patrick St/Cuffe St to terminate at Stephen's Green South as another poster suggested.

In any case I really don't think this project should be a priority.

marno21

spacetweek wrote: »

What median? That one-metre concrete barrier?
The N4 has bus lanes both ways as far as Islandbridge. Turn it into a rapid bus corridor. No need for Luas.

Run the Luas somewhere else. I'd start it at Liffey Valley and follow Patrick St/Cuffe St to terminate at Stephen's Green South as another poster suggested.

In any case I really don't think this project should be a priority.

IMO we shouldn't be running Luas lines outside the M50. At that distance their speed makes them less effective. A greater level of segregation is required over that kind of distance to provide decent journey times.

Dargan Bridge

marno21 wrote: »

IMO we shouldn't be running Luas lines outside the M50. At that distance their speed makes them less effective. A greater level of segregation is required over that kind of distance to provide decent journey times.

In that case the Lucan Luas needs to be a proper Metro. Because there's a hell of a lot of people in Lucan who need a better public transport option than what is on offer.

LXFlyer

Dargan Bridge wrote: »

In that case the Lucan Luas needs to be a proper Metro. Because there's a hell of a lot of people in Lucan who need a better public transport option than what is on offer.

Ummm, DART Underground?

Claude Wilton

spacetweek wrote: »

What median? That one-metre concrete barrier?
The N4 has bus lanes both ways as far as Islandbridge. Turn it into a rapid bus corridor. No need for Luas.

Run the Luas somewhere else. I'd start it at Liffey Valley and follow Patrick St/Cuffe St to terminate at Stephen's Green South as another poster suggested.

In any case I really don't think this project should be a priority.

Proof then that the QBC concept was a load of phooey. Buses can't generate a critical mass of trips away from private cars, no matter how they are tarted up by marketeers.

AngryLips

Claude Wilton wrote: »

Proof then that the QBC concept was a load of phooey. Buses can't generate a critical mass of trips away from private cars, no matter how they are tarted up by marketeers.

Actually the 46A route achieves similar levels of patronage as the Luas green line and bus stop catchment along the N11 corridor has been found to match that of light rail stops (1km vs 500m)

Claude Wilton

AngryLips wrote: »

Actually the 46A route achieves similar levels of patronage as the Luas green line and bus stop catchment along the N11 corridor has been found to match that of light rail stops (1km vs 500m)

Source - and is the journey time end to end on a wet winter evening comparable with a mid afternoon one?

AngryLips

Who cares? You're comparing two completely different routes. I'm just pointing out that your claim that QBCs cannot attract the same critical mass of trips to be complete BS when the 46A route does just that.