Ireland's "neutrality" - enlightened or cowardly and shameful?

Avatar MIA

fizzypish wrote: »

Wouldn't the EU be obliged to intervene?

By sanctions, possibly. Militarily, not so much.

Laois_Man

Laois_Man wrote: »

as a far-fetched, hypothetical question....

If the Brits decided they would like to take the other 3 counties of the province of Ulster, and force ably did so in the morning, would anyone help us?

The US would probably step in. They went into the M.East for less reason, and the political groups/interest groups that have been milking the Irish connection for decades would push for it.

Anyway, it's a silly scenario. There would be no need to fight a conventional war with Britain. Ireland has nothing Britain would want... and get a hostile population who know that guerrilla warfare works.

Dylar

steddyeddy

To be honest a lot of people I've met abroad refer to us as the rebellious country. We haven't a reputation of sitting down and taking it.

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steddyeddy wrote: »

To be honest a lot of people I've met abroad refer to us as the rebellious country. We haven't a reputation of sitting down and taking it.

For a country to be on the doorstep of the most formidable empire in history and gain independence, kicking off a bit of an independence spree... was no mean achievement.

Mr.Micro

steddyeddy wrote: »

To be honest a lot of people I've met abroad refer to us as the rebellious country. We haven't a reputation of sitting down and taking it.

No, the church just dominated everybody, and still does in many respects. Lol

Arytonblue

A whole lot of twaddle in that OP, in terms of history, the USSR blocking our membership proves nothing beyond the fact that the Soviets obstructed numerous new memberships into the UN for the first decade after the war. They were desperate to punish the likes of Italy and Austria in the aftermath of the war and they similarly targeted Ireland in the same way as a means of pissing off the rest of the West, using the line of our 'neutrality' as an excuse. In short, I wouldn't take any foreign policy action by Stalin on merit.

Secondly, the OP and others are judging Ireland's neutrality with a massive amount of hindsight, as others have pointed to, the country lost thousands during the first World War, which ultimately did nothing but to help aid in the slaughter between a group of genocidal empires in Europe and the nation wasn't likely to aid Britain in another war against Germany. Churchill and his government were obsessed with clinging on to their empire and his dismissive attitude towards post-independence Ireland didn't gain much favour here.

The narrative of the evil Nazis against the good guys is one that did not resonate outside the Allied countries at the war's beginning. Even in the US and Soviet Union there was no clamour for intervention in 1939, it was seen as Britain and France's war. Similarly, concrete knowledge of the mass ethnic cleansing and genocide perpetrated by the Nazis did not become widespread until the later years of the war, for a lot of countries, not just Ireland, there was no 'moral imperative' to go to war.

Lastly, the economic boom of some countries aided by the Marshall Plan is entirely looked on in hindsight and it is blatant revisionism to decry Irish neutrality because we didn't benefit from it. You are essentially wishing that the Luftwaffe had bombarded our country and had killed Irish civilians all so that we could get sanctioned post war aid from the US, complete nonsense. Not to mention that Britain itself suffered rough economic hardship post war, still suffering from their post empire cold turkey.

tldr; OP is utter rubbish, please read a history book.

steddyeddy

Mr.Micro wrote: »

No, the church just dominated everybody, and still does in many respects. Lol

ROFL, lyk if yu cried xox

DanMurphy

It's worth mentioning here that in 1969, Jack Lynch asked the Americans (through, I assume, Tip O' Neill and Ted Kennedy) the following question...
'what would America do, militarily, if Ireland sent it's soldiers over the Border to assist the Catholics in Derry?'

They replied that if we set a military foot in NI, they would be legally and morally bound to come to the assistance of their British Allies, fellow NATO members, and they would bomb Ireland back to the stone age if necessary!'

At that time, our criminally underfunded, under paid, underfed, and criminally under equipped soldiers (19 year old me included) were massed on the Border in a ****ty, muddy field grandly called 'Camp Arrow' with no accomodation, no protective clothing except a Poncho to live under, with scant hit and miss rations, wearing 'parade' uniforms, with three days of ammunition for our worn-out antique weapons, a couple of vintage armored cars, no Air Power, a dozen 1930s, well bollixed soft-skinned vehicles... up to our arses in mud...waiting to hear what answer Jack Lynch got from the Yanks.


I use the word 'criminally' to highlight the fact that one Battalion, plus a few APCs, of Irish troops were expected to, by our Government and people, to 'cross swords' with one of the most powerful military nations on earth, who were also backed by the full might of Americas Armed Forces!

We wouldn't have lasted a New York minute, but WE WOULD, of course, have went in there...if we'd been given the go ahead.

The Government, upon hearing the Yanks reaction, got cold feet and the rest is history.

I never hear this mentioned in modern times, except that Jack Lynch said 'he'd not stand idly by...etc.'


Whenever I hear that 'America is a friend of Ireland' I remember those words of 1969 and shake my head.

America is NO friend to Ireland, and at one time, not that long ago, were prepared to bomb us out of existence.

FTA69

Free world me b*llocks. Ten years after WW2 the French were slaughtering Algerians in their thousands, mass interning and torturing people in the name of keeping a part of North Africa a possession of France. Five odd years after WW2 the Brits were opening fire into demonstrators in India and carried on a similar vein until the 1960s. The notion that the world was split into goodies and baddies is simplistic revisionist nonsense.

I'm proud that we have never gotten involved in the imperial adventures of other European countries and hope that we stay somewhat neutral in future.

Your Face

I love history.

When I was in Vienna there were Irish names in their military Hall of Fame.

There are Irish names in many of the Memorials in French museums. One of their Presidents was of Irish ancestry.

There were Irish names on various memorials through the New England region of the USA.

There was a large part of the Golden Age Spanish army made up of Irish soldiers.

That's before I mention all the rebellions against British rule in Ireland.

Also, let's not forget those who fought with the British, regardless of what those of certain persuasions would have us think.


A right bunch of cowards the Irish are.

Avatar MIA

Deleted User wrote: »

The US would probably step in.

I cringe when I read this kind of remark. Guinness may share a similar colour to oil, but that's where the similarity ends.

DanMurphy wrote: »

America is NO friend to Ireland, and at one time, not that long ago, were prepared to bomb us out of existence.

This is closer to the truth, I suspect, if push ever came to shove.

Avatar MIA

Avatar MIA wrote: »

I cringe when I read this kind of remark. Guinness may share a similar colour to oil, but that's where the similarity ends.

Cringe away... you're entitled to your opinion.. just as I am mine. There doesn't need to be an actual connection with the States. That's never stopped them before using Ireland/'Irishness' for part of their culture..

But If Irish people signed up to fight for Britain in two world wars... and the Americans did the same prior to their own entry, then I suspect quite a lot of Americans would seek the same for Ireland, especially if Ireland was invaded by the British.

But as I said, Ireland being invaded is a silly scenario..

Dirty Dingus McGee

If every country was like ours there would be no wars.

Therefore our attitude is the correct one.

Perhaps the opening poster should take up arms himself and go fight ISIS no point being a hypocrite and criticizing the policy without actually doing something constructive.

DanMurphy

Deleted User wrote: »

Cringe away... you're entitled to your opinion.. just as I am mine. There doesn't need to be an actual connection with the States. That's never stopped them before using Ireland/'Irishness' for part of their culture..

But If Irish people signed up to fight for Britain in two world wars... and the Americans did the same prior to their own entry, then I suspect quite a lot of Americans would seek the same for Ireland, especially if Ireland was invaded by the British.

But as I said, Ireland being invaded is a silly scenario..

It might not have made the local papers over there in China, but the British DID invade Ireland, and I've not seen any evidence of Americans riding in to help fight them off?
BTW, I've no gripe against America, or England for that matter, but us Irish must understand where Ireland stands in the grand scheme of things...which is nowhere, if it came right down to the wire.
America loves us Paddies during Presidential election time, of that there's no doubt.

If France decided tomorrow to invade us, the Americans would be duty, legally, and morally bound to assist them, as NATO allies.

It'd be 'goodnight Irene' for us Paddies.:mad:

Militarily we need to get real, but of course it'll never happen.


If we were members of NATO back in '69...would things have been different?
No doubt they would.

DanMurphy

Deleted User wrote: »

The US would probably step in. They went into the M.East for less reason, and the political groups/interest groups that have been milking the Irish connection for decades would push for it.

Anyway, it's a silly scenario. There would be no need to fight a conventional war with Britain. Ireland has nothing Britain would want... and get a hostile population who know that guerrilla warfare works.

"You mean Paddy behind the ditch with a shotgun"
This is 2017, NOT 1917.

Avatar MIA

DanMurphy wrote: »

If France decided tomorrow to invade us, the Americans would be duty, legally, and morally bound to assist them, as NATO allies.

I stand to be corrected, but I think NATO only works if a member country is invaded, not to assist an invader NATO member.

lazybones32

steddyeddy wrote: »

To be honest a lot of people I've met abroad refer to us as the rebellious country. We haven't a reputation of sitting down and taking it.

Seriously? We've taken quite an amount of sh*t of late. Besides, those who have rebelled were always in the minority, but they were fondly remembered by the majority after their deaths.

DanMurphy wrote: »

It's worth mentioning here that in 1969, Jack Lynch asked the Americans (through, I assume, Tip O' Neill and Ted Kennedy) the following question...
'what would America do, militarily, if Ireland sent it's soldiers over the Border to assist the Catholics in Derry?'

They replied that if we set a military foot in NI, they would be legally and morally bound to come to the assistance of their British Allies, fellow NATO members, and they would bomb Ireland back to the stone age if necessary!''

What's the source on this? I'm not doubting you but would like to read more myself.

Your Face wrote: »

I love history.

When I was in Vienna there were Irish names in their military Hall of Fame.

There are Irish names in many of the Memorials in French museums. One of their Presidents was of Irish ancestry.

There were Irish names on various memorials through the New England region of the USA.

There was a large part of the Golden Age Spanish army made up of Irish soldiers.

That's before I mention all the rebellions against British rule in Ireland.

Also, let's not forget those who fought with the British, regardless of what those of certain persuasions would have us think.


A right bunch of cowards the Irish are.

There was a particular French General (18 C maybe) who had 1 or 2 Irish Batt.'s under his command and he quipped that they needed war. On the battlefield, the Irish were the bravest and most courageous but it's when the fighting stopped that the Irish caused no end of trouble with the drunkenness and rowdy behaviour - fighting among themselves, fighting the other soldiers, laziness, no respect for authority or commands. Lawless and impossible to control.

DanMurphy

DanMurphy wrote: »

"You mean Paddy behind the ditch with a shotgun"
This is 2017, NOT 1917.

Nope. There are far more effective weapons left behind by the IRA and even if there wasn't, 'Paddy' could take them from the enemy. (Which has shown to be very possible in Guerilla style or "terrorism" theatres across this century)
You really have such a low opinion of Irish people.

And very limited understanding of how modern occupation can occur by a western nation, towards another western nation (in Western Europe of all places). So, unless, an enemy could magically make all Irish people disappear, a western nation wouldn't be able to apply the levels of cruelty and oppression to maintain control over a hostile population.

DanMurphy wrote: »

It might not have made the local papers over there in China, but the British DID invade Ireland, and I've not seen any evidence of Americans riding in to help fight them off?

sigh. Just shows how weak your argument is. okay then. When did Britain invade the Republic of Ireland within the last 7 years? (Since that's the amount of time I've lived here). I'll make it easier. When did Britain invade Ireland in the last 100 years? Or since the US became a world power, and capable of projecting its military beyond its borders?

BTW, I've no gripe against America, or England for that matter, but us Irish must understand where Ireland stands in the grand scheme of things...which is nowhere, if it came right down to the wire.
America loves us Paddies during Presidential election time, of that there's no doubt.

Oh, I'm extremely cynical of US foreign policy... I'm just less cynical about the variety of American people, I have met both in the US and abroad.[but then, I'm very cynical about all politicians and all political groups]

If France decided tomorrow to invade us, the Americans would be duty, legally, and morally bound to assist them, as NATO allies.

It'd be 'goodnight Irene' for us Paddies.:mad:

It's still a silly scenario.

Why would any country invade Ireland when there are absolutely no gains to be had? It's not as if conquering Ireland has some prestige attached to it, resources that everyone craves, or a strategic location that can't be had elsewhere with less 'fuss'.

Militarily we need to get real, but of course it'll never happen.

You believe that the possibility of an Irish Army ever (before we get Star trek economics/technology) being capable of fighting off another nation (which will have a larger population, revenue, military commitment, etc) in a conventional war? You did say that we needed to get real, didn't you?

Outlaw Pete

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Would have been better for it.

Well, we were bombed and even though mistakenly (as some suggest) I don't think we would have been the better for it were that not the case.

26 August 1940: Five German bombs were dropped on County Wexford in a daylight raid. One bomb hit the Shelbourne Co-operative Creamery in Campile killing three people .

20 December 1940: At approximately 7:30 in the evening, two bombs fell on Sandycove near Dún Laoghaire (the first at the junction of Rosmeen Park and Summerhill Road and the second between Rosmeen Park and Rosmeen Gardens), injuring three people. A third bomb fell about half an hour later near Carrickmacross in County Monaghan, slightly injuring one person.

1–2 January 1941: bombs fell in Counties Meath, Carlow, Kildare, Wicklow, Wexford and Dublin. In Meath, five bombs fell at Duleek and three at Julianstown, without casualties; In Carlow, a house in Knockroe was destroyed, killing three people and injuring two others; In Kildare three high explosive, as well as many incendiary, bombs fell in the Curragh area; two sea mines were dropped by parachute near Enniskerry in Kildare; Ballymurrin in Wexford saw three German bombs fall without casualties; and in Dublin, German bombs hit Terenure, two falling at Rathdown Park, with another two at Fortfield Road and Lavarna Grove, with injuries but no loss of life.

3 January 1941: Dublin was again hit by the German Luftwaffe, with bombs falling on Donore Terrace in the South Circular Road area with 20 people injured, but no loss of life.

31 May 1941: the most fatal attack occurred when four German bombs fell on North Dublin in the North Strand area, killing 28 people.

2 June 1941: Arklow was bombed by the Luftwaffe, with no casualties.

24 July 1941: Bombs fell on Dundalk, causing only minor damage and no casualties.

Interesting narration that finishes off the following clip... the cheeky bastard

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rwJ1T6rmAg

El Tarangu

Your Face wrote: »

I love history.

When I was in Vienna there were Irish names in their military Hall of Fame.

There are Irish names in many of the Memorials in French museums. One of their Presidents was of Irish ancestry.

There were Irish names on various memorials through the New England region of the USA.

There was a large part of the Golden Age Spanish army made up of Irish soldiers.

That's before I mention all the rebellions against British rule in Ireland.

Also, let's not forget those who fought with the British, regardless of what those of certain persuasions would have us think.


A right bunch of cowards the Irish are.

Isn't it great that we now have economic opportunities available to us other than being cannon-fodder in foreign wars?

ohnonotgmail

DanMurphy wrote: »

It might not have made the local papers over there in China, but the British DID invade Ireland, and I've not seen any evidence of Americans riding in to help fight them off?
BTW, I've no gripe against America, or England for that matter, but us Irish must understand where Ireland stands in the grand scheme of things...which is nowhere, if it came right down to the wire.
America loves us Paddies during Presidential election time, of that there's no doubt.

If France decided tomorrow to invade us, the Americans would be duty, legally, and morally bound to assist them, as NATO allies.

It'd be 'goodnight Irene' for us Paddies.:mad:

Militarily we need to get real, but of course it'll never happen.


If we were members of NATO back in '69...would things have been different?
No doubt they would.

try to read up on what NATO actually does.

Glenster

DanMurphy wrote: »

It might not have made the local papers over there in China, but the British DID invade Ireland, and I've not seen any evidence of Americans riding in to help fight them off?

The Cambro-Normans invaded Ireland.

Avatar MIA

Glenster wrote: »

The Cambro-Normans invaded Ireland.

When did they go home :P