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Ireland's "neutrality" - enlightened or cowardly and shameful?

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  • 26-03-2017 4:08am
    #1
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,464 ✭✭✭✭


    It is laughable that a country, unlike Switzerland, that can not militarily defend it's so-called neutrality pretends to be so?

    To me it just seems self centered and morally bankrupt. How can a country be neutral between ISIS and the west for example - or as in WW2 - Nazi's and the western democracies.

    It is cowardice isn't it? God forbid we would contributed a jot to the defence of the free world and our "army" personel playing soldier in a pointless "army". Let other countries do it (some smaller who put their own soldiers on the frontline).

    I guess we have the Brits to defend us. That's why we have gotten away with it so long. Even the Russians kept Ireland out of the UN for years because Ireland was too scared for WW2.

    I think we should officially give up this lie and contribute. Stop hiding behind everyone else.


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    #2
    tomwaterford
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,768 ✭✭✭✭tomwaterford


    Was WW2 not like 20 years after a million or so irish people were lead to their death in WW1 and not one of the biggest causes of support for independence??



    Nothing to stop you from joining the fight vs ISIS op?


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    #3
    My name is URL
    Registered Users Posts: 25,060 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    How can a country be neutral against ISIS and the west for example

    We've done alright so far when it comes to 'neutrality'

    If you want a more hands-on approach sign up and go fight them yourself


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    #4
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,464 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    My name is URL wrote: »
    We've done alright so far when it comes to 'neutrality'

    If you want a more hands-on approach sign up and go fight them yourself

    We have an "army" don't we? Are they in constant holiday camps for the UN? I might join the army if I wanted to see adventure and the chance to make a difference. Not on offer.


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    #5
    My name is URL
    Registered Users Posts: 25,060 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    I think we should officially give up this lie and contribute. Stop hiding behind everyone else

    ...said one anonymous person on the internet :pac:


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    #6
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,464 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    tomwaterford wrote: »
    biggest causes of support for independence??



    How independent are you when you rely on your colonialists for something as basic as defence?


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    #7
    My name is URL
    Registered Users Posts: 25,060 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    We have an "army" don't we?

    We do yeah. They're not there to satiate your thirst, though

    Be a man and do something about what threatens you.


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    #8
    tomwaterford
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,768 ✭✭✭✭tomwaterford


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    How independent are you when you rely on your colonialists for something as basic as defence?

    How independent are you when at the first sign of trouble/war you follow your colonialist into battle/war to provide cannon fodder for them???




    Surly irish independence would've better to build up its own military....not follow the UK into yet another ruinous war as your OP seems to be suggesting?


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    #9
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,464 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    My name is URL wrote: »
    ...said one anonymous person on the internet :pac:

    Code for a coward country. "I'm not giving up my son or daughter to defend the free world (which I benefit from so much) - that is for other countries, we just take advantage".


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    #10
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    To say that the Irish Defense force contributions to UN peace keeping is not contributing is complete bull****. We are a small nation, and we do contribute via UN peace keeping, and I think everyone in this country, can be proud of the efforts of our defense forces UN peace keeping missions.


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    #11
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,464 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    tomwaterford wrote: »




    Surly irish independence would've better to build up its own military....not follow the UK into yet another ruinous war as your OP seems to be suggesting?

    I'd be grand with it if this was a country, like the Swiss, that could genuinely defend it's neutrality. We can't because we don't invest in defence.

    In other words we don't stand by this principle, we don't support our conviction. If we did (granted the limit small countries can go for defence) we would have a defence force that would, like Switzerland, have even big powers think before interfering with neutrality.


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    #12
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Have you pulled on the fatigues yourself, OP?


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    #13
    ChikiChiki
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,950 ✭✭✭ChikiChiki


    We are not neutral despite what we claim and its a bit hypocritical to claim so. The same way we speak about the Irish in America being undocumented instead of illegal. Our airports are used for refueling by US forces. That is showing some bias imo.


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    #14
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Code for a coward country. "I'm not giving up my son or daughter to defend the free world (which I benefit from so much) - that is for other countries, we just take advantage".

    You do realizes that members of our defense forces have died on UN peace keeping missions. Right? Do you think them cowards? Chicken hawk bull**** and nothing more.


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    #15
    tomwaterford
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,768 ✭✭✭✭tomwaterford


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    I'd be grand with it if this was a country, like the Swiss, that could genuinely defend it's neutrality. We can't because we don't invest in defence.

    So you want to contribute?? to wars around the world....all the while being of an opinion that ireland deont spend enough on defence as it is



    Seems at best a contradictory position to hold?,


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    #16
    My name is URL
    Registered Users Posts: 25,060 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Code for a coward country. "I'm not giving up my son or daughter to defend the free world (which I benefit from so much) - that is for other countries, we just take advantage".

    A coward country couldn't defend its position on non-alignment during a world war and live to tell the tale

    You're not calling anyone a coward other than yourself. Stop cribbing like the entitled person you are and go do something about it


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    #17
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,464 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    tomwaterford wrote: »
    So you want to contribute?? to wars around the world....all the while being of an opinion that ireland deont spend enough on defence as it is



    Seems at best a contradictory position to hold?,

    No, my point is that if a country wants to be neutral it should have the courage of it's convictions and stand by that and invest in defence to defend it's own neutrality.


    We can't defend our neutrality therefore by definition the country is not neutral.


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    #18
    tomwaterford
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,768 ✭✭✭✭tomwaterford


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    No, my point is that if a country wants to be neutral it should have the courage of it's convictions and stand by that and invest in defence to defend it's own neutrality.


    We can't defend our neutrality therefore by definition the country is not neutral.

    Is this not what the United nations is for.....nothing to stop you going out and joining the FCA or whatever its called now,to do your bit??


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    #19
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,464 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    My name is URL wrote: »
    A coward country couldn't defend its position on non-alignment during a world war

    lol! :pac: Non alignment during a world war???


    You mean bewteen the west and the Nazis??

    Non alignment? Because the Nazis were of equal moral stature right?

    We were not invaded, as we should have been, because the west were not bothered. They came close though.


    Remember this country was kept out of the UN for years by the Soviets. The Soviet Union ffs taking the moral high ground. Says it all about our reputation as a country at the time.


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    #20
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    We were not invaded, as we should have been, because the west were not bothered. They came close though.

    So you wanted this country to be invaded :rolleyes:. Thats level of self hatred that is truly unique.


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    #21
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,464 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    wes wrote: »
    So you wanted this country to be invaded :rolleyes:. Thats level of self hatred that is truly unique.

    Would have been better for it.

    The reason Ireland was such an economic backwater (even though we came through relatively better off than most after the war) was not only because of dumb-f**k economic proectionism but ALSO because the country did not receive the Marshal plan. A lot of people don't realise that. WW2 had a very damaging impact on Ireland's reputation. The rightful contempt toward Ireland from the FDR administration carried over. Very few wanted anything to do with us in the aftermath. It took until the 1960's for this to shift. At that stage we were an agricultural basketcase.

    FDR himself remarked just before the end of the war that "we have liberated Europe. From Ireland we did not get as much as a thank you".


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    #22
    tomwaterford
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,768 ✭✭✭✭tomwaterford


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Remember this country was kept out of the UN for years by the Soviets. The Soviet Union ffs taking the moral high ground. Says it all about our reputation as a country at the time.

    You seem strongly worried what other people think of the country.....a sign of very low self confidence...something that deosnt belong in modern ireland imo


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    #23
    tomwaterford
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,768 ✭✭✭✭tomwaterford


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Would have been better for it.

    The reason Ireland was such an economic backwater (even though we came through relatively better off than most after the war) was not only because of dumb-f**k economic proectionism but ALSO because the country did not receive the Marshal plan. A lot of people don't realise that. WW2 had a very damaging impact on Ireland's reputation. The rightful contempt toward Ireland from the FDR administration carried over. Very few wanted anything to do with us in the aftermath. It took until the 1960's for this to shift. At that stage we were an agricultural basketcase.

    FDR himself remarked just before the end of the war that "we have liberated Europe. From Ireland we did not get as much as a thank you".

    Ireland got 133 million from the marshell plan....you seem to be very misinformed


    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan#Expenditures


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    #24
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,464 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    tomwaterford wrote: »
    Ireland got 133 million from the marshell plan....you seem to be very misinformed


    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan#Expenditures

    Spare change, nothing remotely as significant as any other country per capita. This was done on purpose to send a message that Ireland did not co-operate in the war like they should have done.


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    #25
    tomwaterford
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,768 ✭✭✭✭tomwaterford


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Spare change, nothing remotely as significant as any other country per capita.

    Roughly twice what Portugal gotten??


    Fantastic thing about figure and maths is it deosnt lie:)



    You seem somewhat aggrevied that since ireland wasn't bombed to fcuk in ww2 (due to being neutral) that it received limited funds to rebuild??

    Your logic is flawed?


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    #26
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,464 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    tomwaterford wrote: »
    Roughly twice what Portugal gotten??


    Fantastic thing about figure and maths is it deosnt lie:)



    Currency exchange is a fantastic thing too.


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    #27
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Would have been better for it.

    Oh dear, you have lost the plot. Look at what happened to London during the blitz. We would have been destroyed.


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    #28
    tomwaterford
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,768 ✭✭✭✭tomwaterford


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Currency exchange is a fantastic thing too.

    It really is....hence why the link provided was all in USD


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    #29
    Barry Badrinath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,460 ✭✭✭Barry Badrinath


    Well, someone had is ranty pants on last night!

    I agree that the Defence budget is consistenty lacking in this country. Its not something that is ever going to change.

    The DF is under funded but if more money was given to the DF and taken away from other departments.....you would be complaining like fcuk.

    The Swiss spend almost 5 Billion on defence and have about 150,000 active troops.

    We spend less that 900 Million and have about 9,000 active troops.

    Cost isnt the only issue, its also strength. We dont have enough in numbers to be a fully functioning organisation. You would need to introduce conscription in order to have enough active and reserve troops to be able to be "neutral".

    UN missions arent a piece of cake either btw


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    #30
    Galwayguy35
    Registered Users Posts: 16,285 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    Ireland should be a contributing member of NATO, we sit back and let others carry the load.

    Have we even got a warplane?

    It's news to me if we have because I've never heard of us getting one.


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    #31
    Noddyholder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 696 ✭✭✭Noddyholder


    Galwayguy35 wrote: »
    Ireland should be a contributing member of NATO, we sit back and let others carry the load.

    Have we even got a warplane?

    It's news to me if we have because I've never heard of us getting one.

    Yes I agree, We should do our part, though we could not afford to buy Modern war planes,( Sure we hadn't even got the capability to use/get rescues planes up at last weeks helicopter crash when asked)

    We should allow a squadron/small armada of air force/navy from an other European country to be stationed here of our western coasts as the east is indirectly protected by the brits.


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