1:8 vs 1:12 twist 223

HW100S

Hello

I ordered a tikka 223 a while back from the local dealer. they arrived this week but all are 1:12 rate of twist.
After doing a bit of reading many people are recommending a 1:8 rate of twist in order to be able to shoot heavier bullets. (55 to 80gr)
I asked the dealer and he said that only 1:12 have being supplied in the past few years and that if I want a 1:8 it will be a special order and a 6 month wait from Tikka.
I'm shooting foxes so will the 1:12 twist be fine?
Will there be any reason to use a heavier bullet than 55gr for foxes?
All comments appreciated.
thanks in advance.

Cass

You're the second person i've spoken recently about this except the other guy actually ordered a 1:8 twist and when he went to pick it up got the 1:12.

I told him not to settle for something he did not order, and the prevailing attitude among dealers seems to be "sure it'll be grand". Now realistically the 1:12 is just as capable and frankly for the shooting we do in Ireland the 1:12 is possibly a better choice, but it's the fact that people are ordering and paying hard earned money for what they want and being given something else while being fed the line about it being "all that can be got".

The point is don't settle. If you're paying your money get what you want. Now if you did not specify 1:8, well the dealer is not really at fault as the 1:12 would be classed as the go to or standard twist.

HW100S wrote: »

I'm shooting foxes so will the 1:12 twist be fine?

Yes.

You will need to stick with 40gr to 55 gr ammo, but it'll do just fine. In fact, as i said above, you might be better off as the options for medium to heavier ammo in this country is terrible. I know, as i've searched for 60gr+ stuff and it's just not to be found. There is 75 gr stuff, but people think this is perfect for 1:8, it's not really. It'll work, and work fine, but 1:8 is what a lot of target shooters use to run their heavy rounds such as 77gr up to 90 gr (VLDs). Too heavy, hard to get, and need to be loaded for.

Will there be any reason to use a heavier bullet than 55gr for foxes?

No. With the right type of bullet (BT, etc) it'll peel them all day long.

The lighter 55gr (or lower) will travel the distances. It'll be faster out of the rifle (muzzle velocity, MV), but will drop quicker over longer distances. Whereas the heavier stuff will have a slower MV but maintain it's stability/velocity over longer distances. However i am talking long range (over 600 yards). Out to 500 yards there is little difference. Now i'm not a huge fan of ballistic calculators, but they are a useful tool to give you an idea of performance without having to spend hours and tons of money to find out. The real world results will differ slightly from the expected performance as suggested by any ballistic calculators.

So in ending you can stick with the 1:12 and work with the lighter range of ammo that will give you good performance out to 600 yards. You will have a larger selection of ammo as 40 to 55 gr stuff is much more popular due to 1:12 being a more common twist rate than faster ones. You will get heavier bullets, but you may find yourself struggling to not only find a good bullet, but a consistent supply. Trying to run the lighter stuff in a 1:8 twist will only frustrate you and leave you wanting something else.

ejg

I have had a few 223 T3's in 1/8. None shot quite as well as a 1/12 CZ or a Rem700 in 1/12. With not as well I mean they still achieved 3/4" with factory ammo vs 1/2" and below with the CZ/Remmy. Never had a 1/12 T3 yet. The 1/8 is a real bonus over 300m with heavy bullets. Foxing is mainly done below 300m so a 1/12 would be fine.... maybe even the better choice.
edi

yubabill1

I have a T3 1:8 and what Cass said is true.

However, I think the T3 1:8 has a 5.56x45 chamber and that might explain the 1/4" difference in groups - it's designed to be multi-purpose; it can shoot 5.56x45 and .223. there is a very slight difference in the neck/shoulder between the 2 rounds and a fair difference in pressure NEVER SHOOT 5.56X45 IN A .223 - if it's 1:12, it's very likely a .223 chamber.

5.56x45 is not commonly available here, the only one I know is Tulammo 62gr.

The 1:12 will work best with 55gr and lower and you won't have any problems for foxes. Many guys run 40gr through their 1:8 for fox, anyway as they drop very little @300 yds/metres.

tac foley

yubabill1 wrote: »

I have a T3 1:8 and what Cass said is true.

However, I think the T3 1:8 has a 5.56x45 chamber and that might explain the 1/4" difference in groups - it's designed to be multi-purpose; it can shoot 5.56x45 and .223. there is a very slight difference in the neck/shoulder between the 2 rounds and a fair difference in pressure NEVER SHOOT 5.56X45 IN A .223 - if it's 1:12, it's very likely a .223 chamber.

5.56x45 is not commonly available here, the only one I know is Tulammo 62gr.

The 1:12 will work best with 55gr and lower and you won't have any problems for foxes. Many guys run 40gr through their 1:8 for fox, anyway as they drop very little @300 yds/metres.

Bill, I have to say that the last half-dozen Tikka T3 of any model that I have encountered in our club - helping the new owner set up his scope - will not actually chamber a 5.56x45 cartridge. The bolt will not go down past about 2 o'clock. Marking the case with a sharpie shows that the chambers are cut for the .223Remington case as per CIP dimensions, and NOT the NATO standard cartridge.

In our club we sell the NATO milsurp ammunition for noobs to use to settle their guns, or for visitors on guest days to try out - in rifles marked as .223/5.56, but IME no Tikka/SAKO in recent years here in UK will chamber a NATO-spec 5.45x45 case. All are stamped .223 Rem[ington].

Just sayin', that's all.

tac

yubabill1

Tac, my own says .223 Rem also.

It cycles tulammo 62gr but never tried radway green etc. Was told from trusted source tulammo 62 is milsurp Korean repackaged by rookies.

Interesting.

tac foley

Here we have MEN, not RG. Don't recall seeing RG since I was in the Army......

tac

yubabill1

:P

tac foley wrote: »

Here we have MEN, not RG. Don't recall seeing RG since I was in the Army......

tac

Cass

What makes you say TulAmmo is 5.56x45?

It doesn't say it on the box and is marketed and sold as 223 rem. Now Barnaul, same type of cheaper steel cased ammo, is sold as 5.56x45, but oddly is also marked as 223Rem which i think is wrong a great disservice to anyone considering buying.

We all know not to use 5.56 in a 223 so why would they market it as both. It cannot be. Unless they mean it can be used in a 5.56 rifle, but i've seen more than a few lads here that have got caught out using it. Stuck cases, stiff bolts are the usual signs of it.

Makes you wonder why they sell it as such considering other manufacturers such as Remington will not give any guarantees about using 5.56 ammo in their rifles (semi auto) even though they are rated for it. IOW they are the other side of cautious. Too cautious.

yubabill1

Cass wrote: »

What makes you say TulAmmo is 5.56x45?

It doesn't say it on the box and is marketed and sold as 223 rem. Now Barnaul, same type of cheaper steel cased ammo, is sold as 5.56x45, but oddly is also marked as 223Rem which i think is wrong a great disservice to anyone considering buying.

We all know not to use 5.56 in a 223 so why would they market it as both. It cannot be. Unless they mean it can be used in a 5.56 rifle, but i've seen more than a few lads here that have got caught out using it. Stuck cases, stiff bolts are the usual signs of it.

Makes you wonder why they sell it as such considering other manufacturers such as Remington will not give any guarantees about using 5.56 ammo in their rifles (semi auto) even though they are rated for it. IOW they are the other side of cautious. Too cautious.

+1

Got micrometer out ( nothing on TVs)

Fiocchi 50 gr hp shoulder measures 3.14 from base of neck

Tulammo 62 gr measures 3.2mm - not consistently on the same round - 3.2 to 3.21.

Necks same length on both 5.05mm.

HW100S

Firstly, thanks to all for the very detailed responses, much appreciated.

To give a bit more background:
I didn't actually specify the 1:8 twist, nor 1:12 for that matter. I approached a delaer before christmas looking for a 223, with tikka being the preferred choice. He had none - they were on order and only arrived last week.

I have been reading a bit between then and now about the diiferent rates of twist so I guess I made an assumption that it would be a 1:8 twist - wrong assumption by me.

I don't necessarily have a problem with the 1:12 twist. My initial question probably should have been Is 1:12 twist good enough for my situation.

Well my situation is as follows:
Quarry: fox and other small vermin
Distance: up to 300mm - due to ability, size of land, safe back stops etc
Current set Up: 17HMR 20gr Hornady - able to knock down foxes up to 120-130m but want to push the distances a bit further.
So, reading the responses leads me to believe I can proceed with my new Tikka T3x 1:12 without too much concern.

Cass wrote: »

Trying to run the lighter stuff in a 1:8 twist will only frustrate you and leave you wanting something else.

I had wondered about this thinking if I get the more versatile 1:8 but want to shoot mostly 55gr and below due to availability and price, will they actually work?

Again, thanks a lot for the contributions.

Cass

A 1:12 with 40 gr to 55 gr will shoot well and accurately out to 600 yards. I've seen this done with a stock factory Tikka, using 55 gr factory rounds, with a Leupold 3-9 scope. Some shooting by the young lad in question but he held an MOA & half at 600 yards. If he had a better scope i guarantee that would be halved.

As you said the availability of 40 to 55 gr stuff is much better than 60gr+. I know as my rifle is 1:9. As a semi auto it's more fussy about what ammo to the degree that anything over 69gr won't run well in it so i'm stuck looking for 60-69 gr stuff. When i find it i buy as much as the RFD has or i can afford. The selection is poor and sometimes not what i want or the gun wants.

I've yet to see a 1:12 that will not fire the 40 -55 stuff well.

Nekarsulm

Cass wrote: »

What makes you say TulAmmo is 5.56x45?

It doesn't say it on the box and is marketed and sold as 223 rem. Now Barnaul, same type of cheaper steel cased ammo, is sold as 5.56x45, but oddly is also marked as 223Rem which i think is wrong a great disservice to anyone considering buying.

The TulAmmo I have is certainly only marked as 223 Rem.

yubabill1

Wrecking my head measuring cases. I don't know how they measured the cases in the article below, can't get in the same ballpark

http://www.glockforum.com/forum/f12/interesting-article-223-vs-5-56-a-10453/

john jameson

Hi lads I was the one who held out for the 1/8 tikka and delighted I did as it does what our 1/12 cz does with the added bonus of being able to fire the remington 69 gr and hornady 75gr at very long distance. After the dealer gave me the 1/12 I made enquiries with GMK myself they had a stainless tikka .223 in stock so got back to my dealer and told him to order it he put the 1/12 back on the shelf so all ended well iv since toped it off with IOR valdada lutaz 3-25x50 and tier one mounts and it's the perfect complment to a class rifle. I try post pictures later

yubabill1

It will also group very well with lighter stuff - I tried a few Remy 45gr HP's in mine after it was bedded, one ragged hole at 50yds.

It likes Hornady Steel Match target HP's 55gr very much, too.

Well may ye wear it.

123shooter

john jameson wrote: »

Hi lads I was the one who held out for the 1/8 tikka and delighted I did as it does what our 1/12 cz does with the added bonus of being able to fire the remington 69 gr and hornady 75gr at very long distance. After the dealer gave me the 1/12 I made enquiries with GMK myself they had a stainless tikka .223 in stock so got back to my dealer and told him to order it he put the 1/12 back on the shelf so all ended well iv since toped it off with IOR valdada lutaz 3-25x50 and tier one mounts and it's the perfect complment to a class rifle. I try post pictures later

You probably done the right thing because just after reading this thread a few months back, I came across a video where the heavier rounds fired in a 1:12 were key holing on the target paper.........don't know whether its relevant in this case but worth a look?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKQizbg1zBw

Points made at 1 minute 36 secs.

john jameson

Iv watched so many videos on that subject my head hurts lol I wanted the 8twist for long range days and iv not been disappointed iv kept a few boxes of heavy ammo for long range days iv a few boxes of sellier&belliet 69gr and remi 69gr also I'm currently shooting s&b fmj 55gr bulk pack and when they will shoot a stone off a fince post at 372 meters there worth sticking with for a while be grand for plinking .