Near misses - mod warning 22/04 - see OP/post 822

CramCycle

Duffryman wrote: »

Anybody any thoughts on how the situation outlined above would apply in conditions like these?

Thats not a hard shoulder, that is a shared use bike lane. This said, only a few miles up the road and the hard shoulder is only 40cm wide and the shared use has disappeared so I am not sure of the question, depends on the day, traffic, what else is happening. Are there pedestrians using it, is there debris, how long does it stay like it is there, and its not very far if you head north along that specific road.

People are here looking for specifics on an entirely unspecific event

CramCycle

Duffryman wrote: »

I think this too might have been along the lines of what the other poster here had in mind. In a case like this, would it not be better for all if a second cyclist followed behind the first one, instead of coming onto the main carriageway to ride abreast of him?

And a few mile down that road it disappears completely as well, often has cars pulled over, people walking and so on. It, as said before, is always situation dependent. I'd cycle in it, unless I could see an obstruction, people in it. Regardless of any of these points though, it doesn't matter whether I use it or not, other road users, travelling faster than me and in bigger vehicles should be able to slow down to my speed if I am on the road way, whether they like it or not, and they should overtake with plenty of room given when safe to do so. Me being in the hard shoulder or the roadway should make no differnce. If I am in the hard shoulder, the motorist should slow, just in case something happens, hence why room should be given for an overtake as well. This is basic roadcraft and good driving practice

07Lapierre

Duffryman wrote: »

Speed limit along that stretch is 80 km/h. It's part of what used to be the N11 from Camolin into Gorey, before the Gorey bypass opened. Was a 100 km/h road before that (or maybe 60 mph, if it was back in the 'old' days), but was downgraded to R status and a lower limit when the bypass opened.
The stretch in the other pic I put up (the one with the van in it) is part of what's still the main N11 road, just south of Ferns, with a 100 km/h limit.

And as we all know, speed limits are adhered to religiously right? Let's face it, an 80kph limit means most vehicles will do 100+kph. A 100kph limit means vehicles will pass a single cyclist at 120 at least!

At least some motorists will slow down if they see a cyclist(s) ahead of them that is cycling near or in the "driving" lane.

Duffryman

magicbastarder wrote: »

that's the most perfect example of typical 'provisioning' for cyclists i think i've seen.
i.e. one where they've actually done nothing to provide anything or do anything specifically for cycling, except to paint a white line on the road in an existing space, and pretend that they've catered for cyclists.

I agree. So does a guy I know who's done a lot of work in campaigning for cycling safety. It looks like a real box-ticking exercise to help somebody in the Council say 'we provided x kilometres of cycling lanes this year', when really all they've done is paint a white line inside an existing broken yellow one, and not actually provided any extra facilities at all.


At the same time, by the letter of the law, they've rendered long stretches of the hard shoulder unusable by any motorist who needs to pull in to change a puncture, take a phone call, or anything else. I remember having to stop on it myself when my young lad (then just two or three years old) started crying in the back because he'd spilled water all over himself. Had to pull in to try dry him off.



Sod's law, but as I was stopped, two cyclists came along in the lane. I said sorry and pointed to the crying child as they went past, and in fairness they didn't make an issue of it, but I was conscious of how I shouldn't have been there all the same.

Duffryman

CramCycle wrote: »

And a few mile down that road it disappears completely as well, often has cars pulled over, people walking and so on.

Well, you're right about the first one, and how it narrows to almost nothing near Clogh - but not sure you're thinking of the right stretch here? That's the N11 south from Ferns towards Enniscorthy, and both road and hard shoulder are of that approximate width and standard for a good five miles from that point to just before the roundabout at Scarawalsh. There's nowhere on that stretch where the hard shoulder is regularly full of parked cars.



Then, after you get through that roundabout, there's about another three miles of wide road and wide hard shoulder before the next roundabout at Blackstoops (the outskirts of Enniscorthy itself, for anybody who doesn't know the area).

Duffryman

07Lapierre wrote: »

And as we all know, speed limits are adhered to religiously right? Let's face it, an 80kph limit means most vehicles will do 100+kph. A 100kph limit means vehicles will pass a single cyclist at 120 at least!

At least some motorists will slow down if they see a cyclist(s) ahead of them that is cycling near or in the "driving" lane.

Well, there we go. I answer your question in a civil and factual manner, but you just have a lash anyway.


That 80 km/h road is actually regularly policed by Gatso vans which could be in any one of at least four different spots, and anybody who travels it regularly would know that, so in actual fact there's probably less breaking the limit on that road than on 99% of others.



As for the 120 in a 100 zone thing, maybe the roads and drivers are just different in whatever part of the country you're in yourself. Most of my drive to and from work is along a 100 km/h speed limit road. I'm generally driving at between 90 and 100 myself, if there's not slower moving traffic in front. And I'm certainly not being passed reguarly by others doing at least 120.

07Lapierre

I'm not having a lash? Just stating a fact. At least it's a fact on the roads where I live.

I'm glad to hear that roads limit is enforced. Nice to know there's one road where this is the case.

What Username Guidelines

May have a contender for my closest pass yet, happened this evening on the way home at a time I really didnt expect it, just pulling away from junction. I thought I'd had close passed before, but this was at a level of millimetres

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQxyEFYRVcQ

Duffryman

Curious about what part of the country you're in, if most cars really are booting it at 120 in a 100 zone? In my experience, only place I see that regularly is on the stretches of the M50 where it's a 100 km/h limit, instead of the 120 that applies on other parts of it. And obviously that's only at off-peak hours too, outside of gridlock times.

Or might it be the case that if you're on a bike, it's harder to gauge the actual speed of other vehicles, and they just appear to be going faster than they really are? Basically, if I'm doing just under 100 in the car and somebody goes past me, I can be pretty sure they're doing at least 110 and probably 120 or more. But if you're on a bike doing 20 or 30 or 40, might it just be harder to tell if the thing going past you is doing 90 or 110 or 130?

Chiparus

Duffryman wrote: »

Well, there we go. I answer your question in a civil and factual manner, but you just have a lash anyway.






As for the 120 in a 100 zone thing, maybe the roads and drivers are just different in whatever part of the country you're in yourself. Most of my drive to and from work is along a 100 km/h speed limit road. I'm generally driving at between 90 and 100 myself, if there's not slower moving traffic in front. And I'm certainly not being passed reguarly by others doing at least 120.

No need for safety cameras then on that road? Of the hundreds of thousands of penalty points , most are for speeding.

daragh_

Near the bottom of Gunny Hill yesterday evening around 6:15. Passenger in a black Golf leaned out while doing an ultra close pass and screamed at me. He had his arm out to either to push me off or hit me - but he missed.

Wasn't able to get the Reg and it's hard to give chase on Gunny

First time I've had someone deliberately do that. Utter Scum. I'll be getting a bike cam next payday.

buffalo

Duffryman wrote: »

For what it's worth, I go running on these roads myself, sometimes in a group of up to six or eight people, that can be two or even three abreast on the hard shoulder or shared pedestrian/cycle lane. Not one of us would ever even think about entering onto the main carriageway though. And when we're running on a narrower road, we're either in single file, or quickly get into single file whenever we hear a car approaching from behind. Are we wrong?

You're not wrong, but you're not on bikes either. :pac:

I'm curious as to why you're singling out when you hear a car approaching from behind though - are you not running on the right-hand side of the road? i.e. facing oncoming traffic?

Thargor

buffalo wrote: »

You're not wrong, but you're not on bikes either. :pac:

I'm curious as to why you're singling out when you hear a car approaching from behind though - are you not running on the right-hand side of the road? i.e. facing oncoming traffic?

Uh-oh!

Mickiemcfist

What Username Guidelines wrote: »

May have a contender for my closest pass yet, happened this evening on the way home at a time I really didnt expect it, just pulling away from junction. I thought I'd had close passed before, but this was at a level of millimetres

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQxyEFYRVcQ

Jesus christ that's bad

xckjoo

Duffryman wrote: »

Well, there we go. I answer your question in a civil and factual manner, but you just have a lash anyway.


That 80 km/h road is actually regularly policed by Gatso vans which could be in any one of at least four different spots, and anybody who travels it regularly would know that, so in actual fact there's probably less breaking the limit on that road than on 99% of others.



As for the 120 in a 100 zone thing, maybe the roads and drivers are just different in whatever part of the country you're in yourself. Most of my drive to and from work is along a 100 km/h speed limit road. I'm generally driving at between 90 and 100 myself, if there's not slower moving traffic in front. And I'm certainly not being passed reguarly by others doing at least 120.

Don't take this as an attack, but I'm not sure you're ever going to get answers that satisfy you. You're asking hypothetical questions and then responding with really specific real-world examples that you've encountered. If a cyclist gives you a potential reason for a behaviour, you counter with "that's not relevant here because...". So for example you might know that the hard shoulders are always 100% clear in a specific stretch of road, but anybody cycling that road won't necessarily know that and if you've ever encountered even a small bit of debris while travelling fast on a bike, you'd be wary of doing it again. Coming off your bike at high speed on the side of a busy road could be the last thing you ever do. I constantly adjust my cycling behaviour and routes based on previous experiences and I'd wager most others do too. Most of the adjustments I make are to try and reduce risk wherever possible. I've a few areas now that I have to take control of the whole lane for a 100m or so because I know there's a pinch point on a blind corner coming up and, from experience, I know that I can't trust drivers to hang back until they know it's safe to overtake. Perhaps the adage of "once bitten twice shy" is applicable. The consequences of a bike-car collision are usually only fatal for one party so we have to act conservatively and assume everyone is out to get us :pac:
You seem to be trying to get an understanding though so fair play. Best advice I can offer is that the reason you see the same few reasons coming up time and time again is that they're the things we've encountered before. Just because they might not be applicable in every situation doesn't mean they aren't widely applicable and that's the main driver in the decisions we make.

Duffryman

buffalo wrote: »

You're not wrong, but you're not on bikes either. :pac:

I'm curious as to why you're singling out when you hear a car approaching from behind though - are you not running on the right-hand side of the road? i.e. facing oncoming traffic?

Thargor wrote: »

Uh-oh!

We'd single out if there was a vehicle approaching from either direction. I'm talking about the sort of single lane country road that's typically about 4 metres wide. Being in single file where both of us are maybe 50 cm out from the ditch on our side leaves more room for a vehicle to go past in either direction than if we were running side by side, with one of us maybe a metre out onto the road.

We're probably getting further and further away from the point of the normal discussion around here, though...

Duffryman

xckjoo wrote: »

You seem to be trying to get an understanding though so fair play.

Thank you for acknowledging this and for giving a considered input yourself.

site_owner

Duffryman wrote: »

We'd single out if there was a vehicle approaching from either direction. I'm talking about the sort of single lane country road that's typically about 4 metres wide. Being in single file where both of us are maybe 50 cm out from the ditch on our side leaves more room for a vehicle to go past in either direction than if we were running side by side, with one of us maybe a metre out onto the road.

We're probably getting further and further away from the point of the normal discussion around here, though...

You were in the hard shoulder a minute ago.

Fighting Tao

If anyone truly wants to understand why cyclists behave as aforementioned they should get a lend of a bike and cycle for at least a month on the roads they have created scenarios for.

Duffryman

site_owner wrote: »

You were in the hard shoulder a minute ago.

I honestly don't know if sometimes people on Boards are just pulling the p*ss or if they're just not actually reading things properly.

Sometimes we're on the hard shoulder of the main road. Sometimes we're on one of the single-lane rural roads that lead to and from the main road. And sometimes we do a loop that's completely on the smaller roads.

jjpep

Duffryman wrote: »

Thank you for acknowledging this and for giving a considered input yourself.

Its been an interesting back and forth. One thing I would add is when you see someone on the road (on foot, on bike or in a car) doing something that you perceive as out of the ordinary/unusual there's generally two possibilities:

1. there's a considered reason for what they're doing (flooding up ahead, debris on the road - a multitude of possibilities).

2. there's no considered reason. They're being inattentive or a dick or whatever.

Either way you (we, all of us) need to deal with it in a safe way. If its someone on a bike cycling in the middle of a lane, overtake safely (if you're driving - you'd want to be fairly fast runner if its when you're out for a jog :-) ). If its a car weaving all over the road or lane, hang back. Etc etc.

Chips Lovell

Mod Note

Hi folks. There's already been two mod warnings on this thread, the first of which is noted in the OP:

Beasty wrote: »

Anyone else starting to discuss red light jumping or otherwise trying to change the topic into a discussion of cyclist behaviour can expect mod action

Any questions PM me

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

Mod Note

Please pay heed to the charter:

"8. Negativity
There are lots of places on the internet where you can have a rant about cyclists. This isn't one of them. This is a place for people with an interest in cycling to discuss cycling. If you treat it as a venue for holding all cyclists to account for perceived or actual misbehaviour by some, you can expect to find your access swiftly removed. In short, we are not your punching bag. If you really do want do want an answer to your gripe, do a search. The usual topics, such as cycle lanes, cycling two abreast etc. have been discussed, ad nauseam, many, many times before"

If you don't have a genuine interest in cycling, don't post here.

Pinch Flat

UK registered Audi skimmed a group of us at batterstown, co Meath this morning. Doing well in excess of 100kph and passed us very close. Open road and didn’t even alter his course.

Duckjob

Pinch Flat wrote: »

UK registered Audi skimmed a group of us at batterstown, co Meath this morning. Doing well in excess of 100kph and passed us very close. Open road and didn’t even alter his course.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzRyEI00PXc

Weepsie

Stopped at a traffic light, going straight ahead. I'm between 2 cars and going straight on as is the car ahead. Car behind is going left and doesn't want to wait. But for I had some inkling, I'd have been under their wheels.

RacoonQueen

Someone decided it would be sound to overtake me this morning (on solid white but whatever)...while I was going downhill hitting ~45kph (on a 50kph road )...about 20 metres before a stop sign. That one second he saved nearly had me through his rearwindshield if I had't *felt* him behind me and braked early, I do that route so often I have my braking to a tee for that stop sign, you don't expect anyone to be stupid enough to overtake you just before a stop sign though...alas, they're out there :rolleyes:

Ray Bloody Purchase

I was driving out of town by Bushy Park on Paddys Day and this young lad (around thirteen or fourteen) swerved across the road in front of me on his bike. Around eight in the evening.

He had no lights. I had to stick the car to the road. He's a very lucky boy that i saw him at all. All dark clothes. He was on the footpath on the right and swerved right across the road in front of me on the way to the footpath on the other side. Didn't look.

I politely suggested to him that he may have been a bit of a silly billy.

I'd say he was pissed.

magicbastarder

Ray Bloody Purchase wrote: »

I'd say he was pissed.

he sounds a bit young for that, but kids these days...

Chiparus

Ray Bloody Purchase wrote: »

I was driving out of town by Bushy Park on Paddys Day and this young lad (around thirteen or fourteen) swerved across the road in front of me on his bike. Around eight in the evening.

He had no lights. I had to stick the car to the road. He's a very lucky boy that i saw him at all. All dark clothes. He was on the footpath on the right and swerved right across the road in front of me on the way to the footpath on the other side. Didn't look.

I politely suggested to him that he may have been a bit of a silly billy.

I'd say he was pissed.

Ever do anything stupid when you were 13 or 14?

Well done for being aware, so many drivers dont think of the hazards and go mad when the "unexpected" happens.

Ray Bloody Purchase

magicbastarder wrote: »

he sounds a bit young for that, but kids these days...

Ehh. Sorry. He was probably stoned!!