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US-led Coalition airstrike kills more than 30 civilians near Raqqa

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    #32
    Autonomous Cowherd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭Autonomous Cowherd


    OldGoat wrote: »
    The first thing you did in the OP was to quote facts. I like facts.
    However you then went on to editorialise with an Anti-American theme. It was then that I quibbled with your post.

    Yah, you know...somehow I feel very angry with whoever it is that slaughters civilians, be it terrorists, Belgians, Russians, or Americans. An editorial (I could not go so far as to claim it was that, as that is rather lofty) generally states the authors personal slant on an event...in this instance, yes, I feel pissed at the situation that has a US led coalition interfering in a sovereign state in such a way that civilians are being slaughtered. Again. And again. And again. If I had editorial power, real editorial power, I would tell America to its face (and its allies) to get the hell out of the Middle East and stop turning it into an inferno.


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    #33
    Barry Badrinath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,460 ✭✭✭Barry Badrinath


    Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »
    I am not a he. And I know A LOT about the Syrian Conflict, Senorita. You used the word 'Merica' not I, silly billy. I posted an OP that states that the US coalition has slaughtered civilians in Raqqa. Which it has, and repeatedly, in the hundreds it may eventually be shown, and in the tens of thousands it may be found when the dust has settled. Just like Iraq. Or Afghanistan. And you want to dismiss me as some kind of ill-informed conspiracy theorist. You misjudge me.

    Ok lady....no idea why I think you are a CT head.

    Give us all a backbrief on how the conflict started, the current situation and who the regional actors are and what their motivatioms are.

    Dont forget to let us know who is fighting who and in what region. Where each entity's allegience (politically, financially, militarily, religiously) currently lies and why.

    Give us a rundown on the groups with the most allegience fluidity for financial reasons. Especially the Anti Regime forces.

    Any info on the Islamic State composition and activites and how they relate to Anti Regime / Pro Regime / Coalition and Turkish forces.

    List out ALL the international actors (including Ireland btw) that have an interest in Syria and the region and what influences they have in supoorting either pro or anti government forces.

    Or is your "A LOT" of knowledge based on open source, biased media reporting, most of which is regurgitated propaganda on both sides depending what institution you read it from?

    Either way, dont BS or skirt around your reply. You either know what actually is going on OR you dont.

    So far, it doesnt look good for you.


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    #34
    OldGoat
    Registered Users Posts: 12,633 ✭✭✭✭OldGoat


    Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »
    Yah, you know...somehow I feel very angry with whoever it is that slaughters civilians, be it terrorists, Belgians, Russians, or Americans. An editorial (I could not go so far as to claim it was that, as that is rather lofty) generally states the authors personal slant on an event...in this instance, yes, I feel pissed at the situation that has a US led coalition interfering in a sovereign state in such a way that civilians are being slaughtered. Again. And again. And again. If I had editorial power, real editorial power, I would tell America to its face (and its allies) to get the hell out of the Middle East and stop turning it into an inferno.
    Thats what you should have said in the OP and I'd be right there with you. The situation is terrible, the outcome is horrific.
    The situation however is not as simple as shouting "US out!". The combination or histories, religions, politics and economics all disputing the same piece of sand create the perfect storm conditions to turn civilians into mere statistics.

    I'm older than Minecraft goats.



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    #35
    Autonomous Cowherd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭Autonomous Cowherd


    Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »
    Ok lady....no idea why I think you are a CT head.

    Give us all a backbrief on how the conflict started, the current situation and who the regional actors are and what their motivatioms are.

    Dont forget to let us know who is fighting who and in what region. Where each entity's allegience (politically, financially, militarily, religiously) currently lies and why.

    Give us a rundown on the groups with the most allegience fluidity for financial reasons. Especially the Anti Regime forces.

    Any info on the Islamic State composition and activites and how they relate to Anti Regime / Pro Regime / Coalition and Turkish forces.

    List out ALL the international actors (including Ireland btw) that have an interest in Syria and the region and what influences they have in supoorting either pro or anti government forces.

    Or is your "A LOT" of knowledge based on open source, biased media reporting, most of which is regurgitated propaganda on both sides depending what institution you read it from?

    Either way, dont BS or skirt around your reply. You either know what actually is going on OR you dont.

    So far, it doesnt look good for you.
    No. Man.


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    #36
    topper75
    Registered Users Posts: 5,942 ✭✭✭topper75


    Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »
    ... Raqqa is a war zone because it has been made a war zone.
    ...

    It's all regrettable for a rational person. It's not a cowboy movie with goodies and baddies. The death of innocents is what it is.

    That 'made into a war zone' comment though sounds a bit spurious... are we in doubt that the war is as a result of an uprising by some Syrian people against a Syrian leader?


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    #37
    Autonomous Cowherd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭Autonomous Cowherd


    OldGoat wrote: »
    Thats what you should have said in the OP and I'd be right there with you. The situation is terrible, the outcome is horrific.
    The situation however is not as simple as shouting "US out!". The combination or histories, religions, politics and economics all disputing the same piece of sand create the perfect storm conditions to turn civilians into mere statistics.

    It's just we are forced day in day out to bear witness to the unfolding of this unspeakable tragedy that is the middle east, and be ever more mute, unprincipled, uneducated, unmoved, and i grow so weary of it. We are made accomplices in our silence, it is horrific.


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    #38
    Autonomous Cowherd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭Autonomous Cowherd


    topper75 wrote: »
    It's all regrettable for a rational person. It's not a cowboy movie with goodies and baddies. The death of innocents is what it is.

    That 'made into a war zone' comment though sounds a bit spurious... are we in doubt that the war is as a result of an uprising by some Syrian people against a Syrian leader?

    Is that a trick question? Do you think I would be so foolish as to say it has been wholly an engineered coup by external forces seeking control of pipelines? Or do you want to be so foolish as to say it was a purely native uprising of Syrian people against a Syrian leader? No. Let us at least agree sensibly that factors of many types - overt and covert - have conspired to result in yet another of the ongoing and ever-increasing conflagrations in the Middle East. Then at least we would not be fools who argue over the causes as if the world can be explained by simplistic theories of everything.


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    #39
    Barry Badrinath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,460 ✭✭✭Barry Badrinath


    Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »
    No. Man.

    So you dont know a lot then?


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    #40
    wakka12
    Registered Users Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    This is tragic but its ridiculous to compare it to the same happening in America. As that is an active war zone and America is not. It would be bigger news if it happened in America as there arent daily aerial bombings and mass deaths in America


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    #41
    Barry Badrinath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,460 ✭✭✭Barry Badrinath


    Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »
    It's just we are forced day in day out to bear witness to the unfolding of this unspeakable tragedy that is the middle east, and be ever more mute, unprincipled, uneducated, unmoved, and i grow so weary of it. We are made accomplices in our silence, it is horrific.

    Who will you "speak" to? Who will listen to your protestations?

    It may only resonate with coalition forces. International coalition forces generally have stable governments and briefs.

    External (non operational) actors are the same.

    It wont work for the Syrian government and you can bet that IS wont give a flying fcuk what any of us think.

    IS are the biggest regional threat in the MENA region, not the coalition forces.


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    #42
    Autonomous Cowherd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭Autonomous Cowherd


    wakka12 wrote: »
    This is tragic but its ridiculous to compare it to the same happening in America. As that is an active war zone and America is not. It would be bigger news if it happened in America as there arent daily aerial bombings and mass deaths in America

    Do you think Syria has always been a war zone? That there has always been daily aerial bombings and mass deaths in beautiful Syria, in Syria with its most ancient of cultures and its thousands of years of learning and civilisation? Do you think a child in Damascus or Raqqa is less valuable than a child anywhere else? Why is it ridiculous to compare? If America was a war zone that would be horrific too. Why does it take its weapons and war machine abroad instead? Why? Why does it spend billions and trillions on weapons when a fraction of the cost could raise every human on this earth out of poverty? I am sick of rationalisations such as ''It is war.'' War is entirely irrational.


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    #43
    wakka12
    Registered Users Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »
    Do you think Syria has always been a war zone? That there has always been daily aerial bombings and mass deaths in beautiful Syria, in Syria with its most ancient of cultures and its thousands of years of learning and civilisation? Do you think a child in Damascus or Raqqa is less valuable than a child anywhere else? Why is it ridiculous to compare? If America was a war zone that would be horrific too. Why does it take its weapons and war machine abroad instead? Why? Why does it spend billions and trillions on weapons when a fraction of the cost could raise every human on this earth out of poverty? I am sick of rationalisations such as ''It is war.'' War is entirely irrational.

    No, I know quite a lot about what Syria was like before the war, if an american bombing had killed 33 people at a school in Syria in about 2009 then it would have been major news worldwide, as that would be an extraordinary occurrence.Thats all Im saying, I agree with all your other points


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    #44
    Autonomous Cowherd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭Autonomous Cowherd


    Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »
    Who will you "speak" to? Who will listen to your protestations?

    It may only resonate with coalition forces. International coalition forces generally have stable governments and briefs.

    External (non operational) actors are the same.

    It wont work for the Syrian government and you can bet that IS wont give a flying fcuk what any of us think.

    IS are the biggest regional threat in the MENA region, not the coalition forces.

    IS did not arise from thin air. There is the factor of burgeoning Wahhabi extremism to consider in its growth, but to deny that the previous western-instigated wars in the middle east that have resulted in the deaths of HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS, if not more than a MILLION innocents, had no part in the seeding and nurture of extremist Islamic groups would be naive. IS is a huge existential threat to us all. The absolutely crazy thing that we may have to consider at some time in the future when the world has grown truly weary of senseless slaughter is that extremists may have to be brought to the peace table, just like we did here in Northern Ireland. Yes, we will actually at some point have to speak to these lunatics. We will not bomb and slaughter a fundamentalist idea into submission, we will simply drive it to breed more ferociously, and as a consequence all our lives will be more unsafe.
    We should do it sooner rather than later.


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    #45
    Your Face
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,277 ✭✭✭Your Face


    All three articles are very presumptive.


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    #46
    Barry Badrinath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,460 ✭✭✭Barry Badrinath


    Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »
    IS did not arise from thin air. There is the factor of burgeoning Wahhabi extremism to consider in its growth, but to deny that the previous western-instigated wars in the middle east that have resulted in the deaths of HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS, if not more than a MILLION innocents, had no part in the seeding and nurture of extremist Islamic groups would be naive. IS is a huge existential threat to us all. The absolutely crazy thing that we may have to consider at some time in the future when the world has grown truly weary of senseless slaughter is that extremists may have to be brought to the peace table, just like we did here in Northern Ireland. Yes, we will actually at some point have to speak to these lunatics. We will not bomb and slaughter a fundamentalist idea into submission, we will simply drive it to breed more ferociously, and as a consequence all our lives will be more unsafe.
    We should do it sooner rather than later.

    Im very aware of western interference which aided in the rise of IS. It was not the sole cause of it no matter how much you want it to be.

    I agree more with your sentiment now that I see you are not the typical Boards user that has just latched onto the latest media release.

    However, I disagree with the potential for peace talks. They will not be as inclusive or as effective as we would all hope.

    There are too many sides involved, not alone in Syria but MENA in general. Take the Astana talks for example. How were the extremists and Islamists catered for?

    You are 100% correct in regards to IS and their allies, supporters and symphatisers. Unfortunately IS or any future variant are here to stay. No amount of bombing can destroy an ideology but it is still necessery.


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    #47
    Autonomous Cowherd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭Autonomous Cowherd


    Please note, I am NOT saying this is true, but I do see unconfirmed reports here and there that many more than 33 were killed at that school.
    I hope that some accurate account will emerge soon.


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    #48
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    I see Damascus is currently getting hit pretty heavily the last few days by rebels ,
    Odd considering assad was firmly in control
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




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    #49
    Autonomous Cowherd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭Autonomous Cowherd


    Raqqa is Being Slaughtered Silently reported that the school was completely levelled by the strike, and that the 50 families who were sheltering there were still unaccounted for on Wednesday morning.


    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-39350475


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    #50
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-39350475

    Actually if you read it ,

    It's says what all your other links are saying according to the same "informed source "
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




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    #51
    Autonomous Cowherd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭Autonomous Cowherd


    Gatling wrote: »
    Actually if you read it ,

    It's says what all your other links are saying according to the same "informed source "

    I am well aware of the source, Gatling. A source you have been more than happy to use and back up heartily in numerous encounters we have had on boards. It is unusual in fact to see the Syrian Observatory being critical of coalition activities, which in itself is telling. Can you just wait and see what comes out of this now, though the immediate presence afterwards of IS militants may muddy the waters. My feeling (sadly) is it was an historic civilian massacre involving many sheltering families.


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    #52
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »
    My feeling (sadly) is it was an historic civilian massacre involving many sheltering families.

    As long as you believe it that's all that matters ,

    Like I already said the same "informed source" claimed a mosque had been destroyed in a deliberate air attack which was proven to be a lie but still hasn't acknowledged it himself ,
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




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    #53
    Barry Badrinath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,460 ✭✭✭Barry Badrinath


    What is your objective here OP?

    Is it just to highlight that coalition forces have killed innocents?


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    #54
    Autonomous Cowherd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭Autonomous Cowherd


    Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »
    What is your objective here OP?

    Is it just to highlight that coalition forces have killed innocents?

    What's your problem with the post?


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    #55
    topper75
    Registered Users Posts: 5,942 ✭✭✭topper75


    Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »
    Imagine if the Syrian air force had out of a clear blue sky murdered children in an American school - imagine how stoked up we would all be made to feel, sitting on the edge of our chairs waiting for Armageddon.
    Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »
    .. as if the world can be explained by simplistic theories of everything.

    OP, one side of your mouth comes out with a simplistic shoe-on-the-other foot scenario that ignores the war zone factor.

    The other side of your mouth decries simplistic analysis of the incident and its context.

    Does not compute.


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    #56
    Joshua J
    Registered Users Posts: 1,305 ✭✭✭Joshua J


    Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »
    This gob****e is....
    2017_3$LargePhoto17_Mar_2017_17032017102212.jpg
    Sweet Jesus but lads like these make my skin crawl. When it comes to politians you'd never meet a more duplicitous, lying, snakey group of gougers in your whole life and people fawn and genuflect over them. Blaggh.


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    #57
    Barry Badrinath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,460 ✭✭✭Barry Badrinath


    Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »
    What's your problem with the post?

    No problem, just

    I just want to know your objective.

    You have zero interest in answering any of my prior queries about your knowledge of Syria. It just looks like a one sided, anti coalition (US) news dump.

    Everyone is aware that civillian casualties occur in war zones. It happens from all sides of the coin. Its awful but do we start a thread on every occurence of this nature?

    Where is this going and what is the point? Theres no debate or balance to be had.


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    #58
    Elemonator
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,271 ✭✭✭Elemonator


    Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »
    This gob****e is....
    2017_3$LargePhoto17_Mar_2017_17032017102212.jpg

    Sure he's only the leader of a small, influence barren, insignificant island off the coast of Europe yet he get's to meet the most powerful man for a special day largely celebrating Ireland a day a year.

    It's not fawning, he's got an opportunity most other world leaders and countries would love.

    But it must be bad, because its Enda Kenny.


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    #59
    Autonomous Cowherd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭Autonomous Cowherd


    Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »
    No problem, just

    I just want to know your objective.

    You have zero interest in answering any of my prior queries about your knowledge of Syria. It just looks like a one sided, anti coalition (US) news dump.

    Everyone is aware that civillian casualties occur in war zones. It happens from all sides of the coin. Its awful but do we start a thread on every occurence of this nature?

    Where is this going and what is the point? Theres no debate or balance to be had.

    I saw news of a massacre which struck me as tragic and horrific and I shared it as per the normal activities of a public forum. I feel it is worthy of attention. I do not have to justify my motives to you. Post on whatever interests you and you won't hear a peep out of me.

    There is no point in trying to sum up what I think/know about Syria as it would be impossible to do justice in any length of a post about such a complex situation.
    Sorry if by debate you mean you could not dismiss me as a crack pot offhand. Thus far I see nothing to debate. The facts are emerging and it appears that there is yet another civilian massacre in Syria. What is there to debate?
    I do not have to justify my post to you or anyone else. If you don't find it justifiable, click Unfollow and attend to such posts as you feel comfortable with. About gaming perhaps, or some such other subject of great import that interests you.
    Threads are built around many things that occur regularly. I have not checked the front page of boards but I'm pretty sure they must be a thread about the London attack, even though terrorist attacks in Europe are by now a regular occurrence.
    Now quit with the ad hominen stuff. If you are not interested in a massacre in Raqqa, select Unfollow. Thank you.


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    #60
    nacho libre
    Registered Users Posts: 16,639 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »
    IS did not arise from thin air. There is the factor of burgeoning Wahhabi extremism to consider in its growth, but to deny that the previous western-instigated wars in the middle east that have resulted in the deaths of HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS, if not more than a MILLION innocents, had no part in the seeding and nurture of extremist Islamic groups would be naive. IS is a huge existential threat to us all. .

    It is a big factor, but also the way the State of Iraq has been run up to now. It allowed these groups to gain a foothold in Iraq and then flourish. ISIS as a governing force are on the brink of defeat in Mosul and in all of Iraq soon after, but unless the Iraqi government starts to govern differently compared to Maliki's sectarian government, ISIS, or some similar off shoot, may well return in the years to come in Sunni dominated areas


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    #61
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    Gatling wrote: »
    Actually if you read it ,

    It's says what all your other links are saying according to the same "informed source "

    The informed source based in a bedsit in Coventry.


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