Inter-County Bitterness and Boundary Disputes

JupiterKid

It never ceases to amaze me that different counties in this little country of ours can develop such rivalries that when issues of boundary changes come up - like when a town in one county wants to extend its boundaries into its suburbs that happen to be in a neighbouring county - sheer blue murder erupts.

Now I know a lot if this comes from the GAA culture and parochialism but its frankly a bit pathetic. At the moment there are a few very contentious boundary disputes afloat - the most prominent being where Waterford city wants to extend its boundaries in to its suburb of Ferrybank across the river Suir, which happens to lie in Kilkenny; where Limerick city wants to annex its it's northern suburb Corbally in County Clare, where Athlone in Westmeath wants to take in Monksland in adjacent Roscommon, and so on.

Surely the different local authorities can sit down and discuss these issues in a calm, rational and productive manner? And not act like squabbling children fighting over a prized toy? Are Irish counties so different from each other that the "not an inch" mindset should prevail.

Thoughts?

Samuel T. Cogley

I don't think places in Meath should be described as Dublin 15.

rainbowtrout

JupiterKid wrote: »

It never ceases to amaze me that different counties in this little country of ours can develop such rivalries that when issues of boundary changes come up - like when a town in one county wants to extend its boundaries into its suburbs that happen to be in a neighbouring county - sheer blue murder erupts.

Now I know a lot if this comes from the GAA culture and parochialism but its frankly a bit pathetic. At the moment there are a few very contentious boundary disputes afloat - the most prominent being where Waterford city wants to extend its boundaries in to its suburb of Ferrybank across the river Suir, which happens to lie in Kilkenny; where Limerick city wants to annex its it's northern suburb Corbally in County Clare, where Athlone in Westmeath wants to take in Monksland in adjacent Roscommon, and so on.

Surely the different local authorities can sit down and discuss these issues in a calm, rational and productive manner? And not act like squabbling children fighting over a prized toy? Are Irish counties so different from each other that the "not an inch" mindset should prevail.

Thoughts?

Corbally is in Limerick City. I'm from Corbally. It's two large estates, Shannon Banks and Westbury that are in Co. Clare but for all intents and purposes are in Limerick City. Most people I know living in either estate would give their address as Limerick. At least start with getting the facts right.

KERSPLAT!

The county we love to hate. ****ing Dubs, ever "expanding".

Barry Badrinath

Dubs - thinning out the culchie inbreading since 19 o'splash.

JupiterKid

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Corbally is in Limerick City. I'm from Corbally. It's two large estates, Shannon Banks and Westbury that are in Co. Clare but for all intents and purposes are in Limerick City. Most people I know living in either estate would give their address as Limerick. At least start with getting the facts right.

Well, who p*ssed in your cornfakes this morning? I've been told that Corbally is both in Limerick city AND in Clare. So what is correct? It seems people who live on the Clare side of the Shannon call their area Corbally too.

Roger Hassenforder

Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »

Dubs - thinning out the culchie inbreading since 19 o'splash.

*inbreeding you illiterate Jackeen

Barry Badrinath

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

*inbreeding you illiterate Jackeen

I'm frum Leitrim but I see you are familiar with the aul mother, sister, lover arrangement

kfallon

Ferrybank is not in Killkenny

Teddington Cuddlesworth

If it's not in Dublin, who cares?

JupiterKid

kfallon wrote: »

Ferrybank is not in Killkenny

Well, last I heard most of it is. Only a tiny section along the riverbank and a few hundred metres inland is in Waterford city's boundaries.

Red Kev

Not as simple as you make out OP and not all to do with the GAA. Your first boundary is your house, car, child or spouse. You tend to get tense when you see this being breached. Next boundary is your street/townland, then town, parish, county and country. People set their own boundaries and if you cross them, you get aggravation, rightly or wrongly. It's an inborn instinct in us.

Being from Roscommon, I'll try to explain the Westmeath "land grab" a bit better. It's simple enough, the map is attached below. Red is the existing boundary, gre yis the proposed new one.

It takes into no account parish, geopgraphy or anything else, it's literally lines drawn across fields. Thins is though, Roscommon County Council have spent a fortune there over the past couple of decades, enticing businesses to the area, building infrastructure for housing estates and the like. All that money that they (and the taxpayers of Roscommon) paid will be gone....AS WILL THE RATES.

Where it gets more interesting is when you consider that just south of that grey line is a huge area that was flooded out last year, so Westmeath's proposal was to essentially take the cream off the top for themselves and let the rest stay with Roscommon.

Nobody likes to see their hard work taken away from them, the people of Roscommon don't want that either. The situation was resolved (for the time being) when over 30,000 people sent in submissions to remain in Roscommon. No fighting, antagonising, no politicians involved; it was a community effort. It should be respected, not belittled.

mrsdewinter

Surely it's because we're a small country that we observe boundaries so closely. If you're in a country where there's loads of room (say the US) you have the mindset that you can always move somewhere else, that there's a frontier just over the horizon which you could conceivably go & conquer.
Plus, there's our whole obsession with land. There's a reason why 'The Field' was so popular.

Red Kev

Red Kev wrote: »

That's hilarious. You'd think they'd at least have gone to the trouble of outlining a boundary that followed townlands, or natural features like streams. That's like something a kid with a ruler would do.

Lt Dan

Deleted User wrote: »

That's hilarious. You'd think they'd at least have gone to the trouble of outlining a boundary that followed townlands, or natural features like streams. That's like something a kid with a ruler would do.

Hence the outcry

The OP post is nasty and bitter towards people who have pride and respect for their area

Literally, the Roscommon - Westmeath border in Athlone is a bit of a joke

As per eircode, you have an area like Baylough, where the pub is Shines (Brendan Shine the singer) is, Eircode says Westmeath, and directly across the road you will have a housing estate. 2 or 3 of the houses will say Westmeath and literally next door says "Roscommon".

What was attempted was nothing short of a land grab. Because of Roscommon County Council (or inspite of it) Monksland is now the most populated area in Roscommon. Many blow ins from Athlone Town have moved over there once they got money.

Annasopra

The outdated county boundaries make absolutely no sense to me at all.

JupiterKid

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

The outdated county boundaries make absolutely no sense to me at all.

Agreed. The county boundaries do not refelect the modern realities of an urbanised, interconnected Ireland where towns and cities have functional hinterland areas. In many regions of the country, you have several counties all competing for scarce resources and investment when, if they were merged into a single regional entity, could strategically plan their regions far better.

But I can't see that happening where entrenched parochial mindsets prevail. 7 different local authorities managing the Greater Dublin area is crazy.

oppenheimer1

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

The outdated county boundaries make absolutely no sense to me at all.

This is it. The counties should all be done away with, like they did in the North for administrative purposes. Boundaries set up in the time off King James are not relevant.

The amalgamation of counties into regional authorities, that take account of modern population distribution would be a step forward. Roscommon and westmeath should be joined together rather than them fighting over who gets the rates from "half a rood of rock".

If people want to continue to use the historic counties on their postal address, that's fine. And if sporting organisations want to organise on the old county boundaries that's fine too. They are moronic reasons to hold back progress though

Mrs OBumble

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

The outdated county boundaries make absolutely no sense to me at all.

Indeed, I've never understood why Irish people cling to these English administrative divisions.

The strange one here is the division of the Beara peninsula, reputed to have happened to split an area that had been difficult for the British because of the strength of the O'Sullivan clan. In fact all the peninsulas in the SW, Mizen, Sheeps Head, Beara, Iveragh and Dingle have more in common with each other, similar issues, similar landscape and income derived from sources like fishing and sheep farming, than with areas in their counties like North and East Kerry, Cork City, North and East Cork etc.

Roger Hassenforder

Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »

I'm frum Leitrim but I see you are familiar with the aul mother, sister, lover arrangement

even worse, a Jackeen wannabee- up dere in Dublin for his degree in Ag Science, an affected D4 accent, and not atin turnips anymore.

dirtyden

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

The outdated county boundaries make absolutely no sense to me at all.

Says the Wicklow mod :P.

RiderOnTheStorm

Its not just counties however. There was a big fuss in our estate when the post office said we were Dublin 24 after all houses were bought on understanding they were Dublin 16. I imagine there would be many Dubliners very annoyed if their address changed overnight.

MilesMorales1

All the houses in Waterside near where I live say its 'Waterside, Malahide' even though everyone knows its at best Kinsealy or Swords. Drives me mad.

PhuckHugh

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Corbally is in Limerick City. I'm from Corbally. It's two large estates, Shannon Banks and Westbury that are in Co. Clare but for all intents and purposes are in Limerick City. Most people I know living in either estate would give their address as Limerick. At least start with getting the facts right.

I'm from Westbury and wrote Limerick as my address for the 15 years I lived there... I spat on the 'Welcome to Clare' sign every day I crossed the bridge.

ProudDUB

JupiterKid wrote: »

Well, who p*ssed in your cornfakes this morning? I've been told that Corbally is both in Limerick city AND in Clare. So what is correct? It seems people who live on the Clare side of the Shannon call their area Corbally too.

So you want other people to engage in calm, rational debate....but its ok for you to be confrontational and call people pathetic, or squabbing like small children?

Ok, got it. :rolleyes:

biko

Every thread like this makes me think of

Jack the Stripper

Take a cold shower folks and no fiddling with yer selves.

Noddyholder

Bray is in Wicklow or not. ?

osarusan

Westbury, Shannon Banks, and Carraig Midhe are in County Clare, not County Limerick...but are, effectively, estates in the suburb of Corbally in Limerick city.*

But Westbury, Limerick City, Co. Clare just sounds awful and nobody writes it like that.

*There was a dispute about just where the city border lies, or more specifically, in terms of who is responsible for the maintenance of those estates. I think that for the moment, it's still the responsibility of Clare CoCo.

All that is nothing compared to the bitterness that existed between Limerick City Council and Limerick County Council though.

JupiterKid

osarusan wrote: »

Westbury, Shannon Banks, and Carraig Midhe are in County Clare, not County Limerick...but are, effectively, estates in the suburb of Corbally in Limerick city.*

But Westbury, Limerick City, Co. Clare just sounds awful and nobody writes it like that.

*There was a dispute about just where the city border lies, or more specifically, in terms of who is responsible for the maintenance of those estates. I think that for the moment, it's still the responsibility of Clare CoCo.

All that is nothing compared to the bitterness that existed between Limerick City Council and Limerick County Council though.

Limerick city and Limerick county are now merged, as they should have been years ago. I heard that antipathy between the city and county councils was a major factor in the "doughnut effect" of businesses relocating to the edge of the city and hollowing out the city centre.

bullpost

Waterford/Killkenny one will go away soon - The Saudis are going to buy the bit in the middle:
http://www.thejournal.ie/waterford-shopping-mall-saudi-group-2-3299964-Mar2017/

__Alex__

I totally understand the objections of the South Kilkenny folk. I'd hate to suddenly be from a different county to the one I grew up in!

Un1corn

Drogheda also has this issue now. There is a tiny bit of County Louth, south of the Boyne. It is surrounded by Meath. However, the area is quite built up with the border going through housing estates. Definitely inconvenient.

RobertKK

bullpost wrote: »

Waterford/Killkenny one will go away soon - The Saudis are going to buy the bit in the middle:
http://www.thejournal.ie/waterford-shopping-mall-saudi-group-2-3299964-Mar2017/

Yeah the Waterford people want a part of Kilkenny and maybe their council are looking to bring in the Saudis to back their war against us in Kilkenny...
Probably jealous Kilkenny is more popular, so they want to take over bit by bit...

Roger Hassenforder

__Alex__ wrote: »

I totally understand the objections of the South Kilkenny folk. I'd hate to suddenly be from a different county to the one I grew up in!

Can you imagine going to bed with 36 all Irelands and waking up with only 2?

Carlos Orange

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Indeed, I've never understood why Irish people cling to these English administrative divisions.

I have never really understood why attaching the word English to things is supposed to make them undesirable.

Junkyard Tom

We need to draw a line-in-the-sand with these ridiculous disputes and say "NO MORE" :mad:

topper75

psinno wrote: »

I have never really understood why attaching the word English to things is supposed to make them undesirable.

Simple. The Irish lost their land to the conquering Elizabethan English and then the counties were formed for administration purposes to keep it that way. The last county to be shired was Wicklow, made up of parts of Dublin, Wexford, and Carlow. The Gaelic remnant parts that weren't under such tight English control in the west ended up as outsize counties (Donegal, Mayo, Galway, Cork, Kerry) Political power only really reverted to the native Irish in 1922. But no effort was made to shake up the arbitrary divisions and reset them in a way that would facilitate effective governance for the future.

And so this thread.

riffmongous

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Can you imagine going to bed with 36 all Irelands and waking up with only 2?

How could anyone live knowing their future is so bleak, summer after summer, spent in some sort of Sisyphean hell

__Alex__

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Can you imagine going to bed with 36 all Irelands and waking up with only 2?

I'm from Mayo...

Carlos Orange

topper75 wrote: »

Simple. The Irish lost their land to the conquering Elizabethan English.............

And so this thread.

This thread (as started by the OP) isn't really about having a chip on your shoulder about Englishness. It is about people having emotional attachments to arbitrary administrative boundaries. The OP did thank your post so maybe they could edit the original post to clarify. If anything, peoples attachment to being independent is exactly what the OP is railing against.

JupiterKid

psinno wrote: »

This thread (as started by the OP) isn't really about having a chip on your shoulder about Englishness. It is about people having emotional attachments to arbitrary administrative boundaries. The OP did thank your post so maybe they could edit the original post to clarify. If anything, peoples attachment to being independent is exactly what the OP is railing against.

No, I've absolutely no problem with people being independent (I think it's a very good thing) and taking pride in their areas/localities. What I do take issue with are different counties bickering over boundaries to the detriment of sensible, strategic development and planning. It's nonsense.

DanielODonnell

A lot of GAA fans base their historical knowledge on that the GAA teaches them, County Cork is where all the old IRA rebels were from, nowhere outside Cork. All High kings of Ireland were from the royal county of Meath and the red hand belongs to county Tyrone regardless of how the Ui Neill were spread throughout Ulster and how they were originally based in the Derry/Inishowen area pre 10th century, not to mention how the red hand myth involved a king cutting off his hand and throwing it to the coast, County Tyrone doesn't have a coast.

osarusan

JupiterKid wrote: »

LiI heard that antipathy between the city and county councils was a major factor in the "doughnut effect" of businesses relocating to the edge of the city and hollowing out the city centre.

It was also to do with business rates and which council would get them - with the county council facilitating the development of shopping centres just on the county side of the county/city border.

Moronic councillors like Gerry McLoughlin stoked the flames with stuff like this: "These country bumpkins have no regard for Limerick. They have destroyed the city with the planning, and are no friends of ours. We are not here to serve Newcastle West, or other places in the arsehole of county Limerick. I am a city man - I don't go down there, and have no time for them."

An Ciarraioch

DanielODonnell wrote: »

A lot of GAA fans base their historical knowledge on that the GAA teaches them, County Cork is where all the old IRA rebels were from, nowhere outside Cork. All High kings of Ireland were from the royal county of Meath and the red hand belongs to county Tyrone regardless of how the Ui Neill were spread throughout Ulster and how they were originally based in the Derry/Inishowen area pre 10th century, not to mention how the red hand myth involved a king cutting off his hand and throwing it to the coast, County Tyrone doesn't have a coast.

It does, on Lough Neagh.

rainbowtrout

PhuckHugh wrote: »

I'm from Westbury and wrote Limerick as my address for the 15 years I lived there... I spat on the 'Welcome to Clare' sign every day I crossed the bridge.

As does everyone else I know from there. It's not practical for two housing estates on the edge of the city to write Westbury, Co. Clare as an address if they want post to get to them and not get redirected to Ennis or wherever. But they still come under the remit of Clare Co. Co.

rainbowtrout

JupiterKid wrote: »

Well, who p*ssed in your cornfakes this morning? I've been told that Corbally is both in Limerick city AND in Clare. So what is correct? It seems people who live on the Clare side of the Shannon call their area Corbally too.

When you go over the bridge over the Shannon in Corbally and into Co. Clare you are no longer in Corbally, or Limerick for that matter. People in Shannon Banks and Westbury don't use Corbally in their address.

osarusan

rainbowtrout wrote: »

When you go over the bridge over the Shannon in Corbally and into Co. Clare you are no longer in Corbally, or Limerick for that matter. People in Shannon Banks and Westbury don't use Corbally in their address.

Where's Corbally United's pitch?

Un1corn

Un1corn wrote: »

Drogheda also has this issue now. There is a tiny bit of County Louth, south of the Boyne. It is surrounded by Meath. However, the area is quite built up with the border going through housing estates. Definitely inconvenient.

This report from last month recommends no change for the Louth/Meath boundary around Drogheda.

http://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/publications/files/drogheda_report_final_16022017.pdf

Poor Uncle Tom

What would be wrong with each city/large town not being specifically attached to any one county but have it's own metropolitan area directly proportional to the population of the city/town?

Wasn't this what was intended when the original UDC's were set up, until that knuckle dragger, Hogan put his septic seal on that notion.