Help for a pal in Ireland....

tac foley

I've just received this query from an Irish gentleman posting on a US-based forum, and since I can't speak for An Post, I'm asking for your kindly-disposed advice.

Quote - 'Hello. Sorry to bother you, another user here suggested I contact you for some advice. I noticed you're living in the UK, and I was just wondering if you've any experience having firearms shipped in to you from outside the EU?

I live in Ireland myself and am trying to have a relative ship me an antique percussion pepperbox pistol from the USA. I'm already applying for a letter of permission from the Gardai as well as an import license, but I've hit a bit of a snag finding someone who will ship the thing to Ireland. Several of the postal services I checked (e.g. FedEx and UPS) don't seem to want to touch firearms for international shipping, and I was told An Post (our Irish postal service) has 'firearms and replicas' on their list of prohibited items.

I know youse in the UK have slightly different laws concerning antique guns than we do, but still I was advised to ask just in case you knew any shipping agents/exporters who deal in firearms between our region and the USA.

Thanks. End quote.

Now this antique has to be at least 150 years old - the technology precedes the Colt pistol of 1836, so what's the craic here, please Gentlemen?

TIA

tac

civdef

From the Commisioner's Guidelines:

COLLECTORS/DEACTIVATED FIREARMS
Antique firearms are exempt from the provisions of the Firearms Acts provided they are
held as ornaments or curiosities. In the absence of a definition for an ‘antique’ firearm,
Ballistics section at Garda H.Q. applies the ‘Pre Unitary Cartridge’ rule which appears to
conform to international standards. Unitary cartridge ammunition consists of a cartridge -
usually metal which contains the primer – the propellant and the bullet within it.
Modern reproductions of antique firearms are not exempt from firearms legislation.
Some people will occasionally wish to buy an old or antique firearm, or one which is
valuable because of its historical significance, for no reason other than as an investment.
This may sometimes be regarded as ‘Good Reason’ having regard to all the
circumstances, and if capable of being fired, these firearms will require a firearms
certificate.

Deactivated/Defective firearms, not capable of being fired, may be kept on the written
authorisation of the local superintendent under S.6 of the Firearms and Offensive
Weapons Act 1990 as amended. The superintendent must be satisfied that the firearm is
actually permanently deactivated and may request certification of same from a recognised
proof house and have the firearm examined by a suitably qualified member of the Garda
Síochána. Ballistics section Garda H.Q. may also be contacted to offer any further
assistance if required. The serial number on such a deactivated firearm should always be
maintained for identification purposes.

Cass

In relation to shipping, well without sounding like a dick, good luck. There seems to be a growing trend for shipping companies to refuse to carry firearms, ammunition and component parts. An Post will ship, but only within the state.

As for the paragraph civdef linked/quoted to above. You'll notice the highlighted parts:

In the absence of a definition for an ‘antique’ firearm,
Ballistics section at Garda H.Q. applies the ‘Pre Unitary Cartridge’ rule which appears to
conform to international standards.

As far as i'm aware this have not been clarified or updated so remains a "rule" as oppose to a legal definition with supportive legislation. This gives An Gardaí and the DoJ much broader powers to restrict certain types of firearms coming in or already in the state in terms of licensing.

In essence it's going to be pot luck as to whether it'[ll be allowed or not. Its a crappy answer, but when the law isn't specific so how can we be.

tac foley

Many thanks for that, Cass and civdef, much appreciated. I'll pass it on to my pal over there. As far as the'unitary cartridge' definition is concerned, the so-called pepper-box design consists of a revolving cylinder of five or six individual chambers, each of which has to be loaded with powder, ball and then capped - IOW, a percussion muzzleloader used for self-defence in the 1840s and 50s. The advent of the successful Colt's revolving pistol killed them dead right there, and they disappeared from history except as a curio.

tac

Grizzly 45

Tell him to ship it as an "antique family heirloom" when he gets it to a shipping company.As it isnt classified as a firearm in the USA,No BP stuff is ,ancient or modern repros he is being truthful on that point.

tac foley

Thanks, Grizzly45 - I've passed that on to him with little in the way of hope that he'll ever see it. My faith in An Post is virtually non-existant, I regret to say.

Anyhow, thanks to you guys I've done all I can to help.

tac

juice1304

as grizzly said under american law anything made before 1899 is considered and antique and not a firearm anymore and it really is so. There was a case where someone committed an armed robbery with an antique however they couldn't do him on firearms charges because it is not a firearm.

tac foley

Yup, I'm aware of the laws in the US of A - I live there for up to 90 days a year. What I didn't know about were the laws regarding how the Irish gubmint views antiques that were once live firearms. Now I know, and so does 'hama' somewhere in Ireland. I've had five antique firearms sent from USA to UK, in fact, I sent four of them myself, but the laws are quite different here, since any firearm for which ammunition is NOT available is classed as Section 58 [Obsolete calibre] and is freely available to anybody over the age of 18 who has the money to buy it. Obviously this covers both obsolete cartridges, as well as muzzle-loaders shooting loose projectiles - ball or bullet.

However, since here in UK we can make ammunition for any firearm for which we have a license, all that is necessary is to get the old gun on your 'ticket', load 'em up, and shoot.

tac