BE strike [Read 1st post before posting]

JCX BXC

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

I would be a little concerned that the 'theory' that 'The job of Unions is to get the best deal for their members' is being bandied about on this thread.

And in my opinion this statement is completely accurate. Many unions in the public sector have shown time and time again to have no regard for the operationality of the business and seem to think that there is a cash cow available that they can milk dry.

While other unions may not be the same, this is the outlook that the vast majority of public service unions have. It's the sad truth.

To deny this would not be common sense, infact it would be deliberately evading the truth.

Stephen15

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/dublin-bus-moves-to-prevent-future-sympathy-strikes-1.3061176

eeguy

Stephen15 wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/dublin-bus-moves-to-prevent-future-sympathy-strikes-1.3061176

Good!

Hopefully DB and IE will go after them over the wildcat strike too.

The Parish Priest.

This story sure died from the media quickly... when will we know if they'll except the court recommendations ?

howiya

The Parish Priest. wrote: »

This story sure died from the media quickly... when will we know if they'll except the court recommendations ?

Don't think there's a timetable for the vote yet. Unions having a round of meetings with members around the country first

devnull

SIPTU Broadstone Committee have stated they will reject the LRC judgement and voting will happen during early May.

Appears it's all shaping up for an all out strike across multiple parts of CIE.

pilly

devnull wrote:

SIPTU Broadstone Committee have stated they will reject the LRC judgement but they have decided that they will not be formally voting at this time, instead voting will happen during early May.

How can they know they're rejecting it without voting? Doesn't make sense?

devnull

Sorry, source wasn't quite right, looked around and I guess it's slight misreporting of this.

n97 mini

I seriously hope Shane Ross has instructed the NTA to plan for the post BE era potentially we're heading into. This is his opportunity to fill the docks with imported coal. Timing is everything now.

end of the road

n97 mini wrote: »

I seriously hope Shane Ross has instructed the NTA to plan for the post BE era potentially we're heading into. This is his opportunity to fill the docks with imported coal. Timing is everything now.

so he should instruct the NTA to do their job, something they should be doing anyway? do the NTA need to be instructed to do their job and plan for something that could happen? if so, then that doesn't sound like a regulator we can have faith in to me.
there is no opportunity for him to "fill the docks with imported coal" as we have "irish coal" availible.
in fact, as he has said he isn't getting involved then he needs to stay out of it.

murphaph

end of the road wrote: »

so he should instruct the NTA to do their job, something they should be doing anyway? do the NTA need to be instructed to do their job and plan for something that could happen? if so, then that doesn't sound like a regulator we can have faith in to me.
there is no opportunity for him to "fill the docks with imported coal" as we have "irish coal" availible.
in fact, as he has said he isn't getting involved then he needs to stay out of it.

Don't be naïve eotr. The NTA doesn't operate in a vacuum. It takes its direction from the DoT. The government need to decide if they want CIE broken now or not and instruct the NTA accordingly.

MOH

end of the road wrote: »

so he should instruct the NTA to do their job, something they should be doing anyway? do the NTA need to be instructed to do their job and plan for something that could happen? if so, then that doesn't sound like a regulator we can have faith in to me.
there is no opportunity for him to "fill the docks with imported coal" as we have "irish coal" availible.
in fact, as he has said he isn't getting involved then he needs to stay out of it.

Did the strikers not want him involved? It's hard to keep up

I though the unions were complaining BE hadn't given them the information they needed to make a decision? Maybe they should find out what the Broadstone Committee know that they don't?

devnull

NBRU have lssued a four page letter to all members.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C-W46M0XUAw5Xm5.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C-W4733XUAEqhux.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C-W49ouXUAkoLoZ.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C-W4_mOXUAIK0bK.jpg

pjohnson

devnull wrote: »

SIPTU Broadstone Committee have stated they will reject the LRC judgement and voting will happen during early May.

Appears it's all shaping up for an all out strike across multiple parts of CIE.

Does this suprise anyone? This was always what the Unions wanted from before the even stepped into the Labour Court

pilly

devnull wrote: »

NBRU have lssued a four page letter to all members.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C-W46M0XUAw5Xm5.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C-W4733XUAEqhux.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C-W49ouXUAkoLoZ.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C-W4_mOXUAIK0bK.jpg

The tone and language they use just comes across as constantly aggressive.

Really bugs me, as does they're getting involved in politics in any way.

fxotoole

devnull wrote: »

NBRU have lssued a four page letter to all members.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C-W46M0XUAw5Xm5.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C-W4733XUAEqhux.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C-W49ouXUAkoLoZ.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C-W4_mOXUAIK0bK.jpg

Can you boil it down to a summary?

Graham

fxotoole wrote: »

Can you boil it down to a summary?

Saving the company would be an unfair burden on the union members

pilly

fxotoole wrote: »

Can you boil it down to a summary?

Government are bad, blah blah blah, blueshirts, blah blah blah, we did our best. :mad:

murphaph

devnull wrote: »

NBRU have lssued a four page letter to all members.

The way they tear into the Dáil first and foremost shows their original plan all along was to drag the taxpayer into this.

Thankfully this plan failed miserably and the tone in the rest of the letter belies a great fear that the union is desperate for BÉ not to be allowed fail as they know well it's only the beginning of the end of state ownership of the other CIÉ companies if that happens. If that happens the role (and hence number of jobs within the union itself) will be under huge threat as unionisation in private companies is less beneficial to the members as they have no great leverage any more.

I still would not be surprised to see the offer rejected.

Also interesting to note how they see overtime as normal pay.

salonfire

I read that letter in Dermot O'Leary's voice

end of the road

pilly wrote: »

The tone and language they use just comes across as constantly aggressive.

Really bugs me, as does they're getting involved in politics in any way.

being political is one of the best ways a union can do it's job. they can help expose agendas of political parties and more.

murphaph wrote: »

The way they tear into the Dáil first and foremost shows their original plan all along was to drag the taxpayer into this.

Thankfully this plan failed miserably and the tone in the rest of the letter belies a great fear that the union is desperate for BÉ not to be allowed fail as they know well it's only the beginning of the end of state ownership of the other CIÉ companies if that happens. If that happens the role (and hence number of jobs within the union itself) will be under huge threat as unionisation in private companies is less beneficial to the members as they have no great leverage any more.

not true. nothing stopping them from seeking for example, pay increases across all companies at the same time, or dealing with different issues in a number of or all companies at the same time. the only way they will have less leverage is if the management are willing to listen to the issues and negotiate accordingly. the unions are going nowhere and it doesn't matter how much minny monopolies and the potential inefficientsies that brings are created the unions will continue to do the job requested of them by their paying members. whatever about bus eireann, and possibly dublin bus at a stretch, the only way IE would go anywhere is if our railway is ripped up.
the government know what happens with rail privatization in terms of passenger services all ready thanks to the uk.

MOH

end of the road wrote: »

stretch, the only way IE would go anywhere is if our railway is ripped up.
the government know what happens with rail privatization in terms of passenger services all ready thanks to the uk.

Indeed they're probably quite aware that passenger numbers more than doubled, while subsidies per passenger halved.

Can we bin IE along with BE?

devnull

end of the road wrote: »

the government know what happens with rail privatization in terms of passenger services all ready thanks to the uk.

You tried this tack and statement once before, so I'm going to debunk it once again.

People often compare the UK and say it has high subsidy levels, but decline to mention that whilst overall subsidy figures have gone up since privatization, the total figure has been going down for 10 years and the number of services, passenger numbers and passenger miles are more than double what they were under British Rail, the actual subsidy per passenger journey is now almost half what it was under British Rail.

Simply saying that British Rail paid x subsidy 25 years ago and that now y subsidy is more therefore this proves that the UK model has failed is laughable, because apart from the fact it does't allow for inflation, it's not comparing like for like, a better comparison is subsidy per passenger journey or km.

We keep hearing that subsidy is so high however when you look at it, it's actually not very highly subsdized at all. Belgium, France, Germany and Italy all have much higher subsidy per passenger journey in some cases by a large margin.

Latest figures I can find in Euro

Germany: 17bn subsidy for 79.3bn KM
France: 13.2bn subsidy for 83.9bn KM
Italy: 7.6bn subsidy for 39.7bn KM
Spain: 5.1bn subsidy for 24.5bn KM
UK: 4.4bn subsidy for 65.1bn KM.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_transport_in_Europe#Subsidies)

So compared against the biggest four European countries, the UK rail system provides by far the most effiecent use of subsidy and has the lowest level of subsidy of the five major countries in Europe.

Some other stats
- Since privatization, modal share of rail has increased from 5% to 10%
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_of_the_privatisation_of_British_Rail#/media/File:Rail_modal_share.png

- The UK has the safest railways in Europe based on the number of train safety incidents.
(https://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2013/7/25/1374774811646/Train-fatalities-graphic.-001.jpg)

- Overall Subsidy has fell by 50% in the last 10 years, but passenger numbers increased by almost 75%. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_of_the_privatisation_of_British_Rail#/media/File:UK_Rail_subsidy_1985-2014_(in_2014_prices).png)

- The only time passenger numbers had a big decline was when the railway was in public ownership
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_of_the_privatisation_of_British_Rail#/media/File:GBR_rail_passengers_by_year_1830-2015.png)

being political is one of the best ways a union can do it's job. they can help expose agendas of political parties and more.

Isn't their job to represent their members as you have told us a number of times and their only job? At the end of the day it's all about holding the taxpayer as hostage and milking the money cow, at least in my view but I respect that other people may have a different one.

fxotoole

end of the road wrote: »

being political is one of the best ways a union can do it's job. they can help expose agendas of political parties and more.

What specifically makes you think that anyone has an agenda? Do you mean an agenda to privatise public transport? The union mindset (and the mindset of the Left in general) is all about constantly being under attack from or in conflict with some external force. Yet I don't see any politicians with an agenda (well, except for PBP/AAA/Solidarity et al)

trellheim

The initial lines of the NBRU letter posted above just make me groan

We are more than aware that the issues at the core of the dispute in BE are saturated in politics


1) what does "more than aware" mean ? does it mean I glow with hyper-awareness ?

2) what does "saturated in politics" mean ? like a deep fried sausage or something


3) let me tell you that if you were interested in the politics which is about getting the Irish public a better all round deal for public transport then you are perhaps not approaching it in the best place.


<

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Rant off

It looks as if BE management have missed a trick without having forced NBRU to ballot these proposals immediately and let them get some money in their pockets to strike again

end of the road

MOH wrote: »

Indeed they're probably quite aware that passenger numbers more than doubled, while subsidies per passenger halved.

passenger numbers more then doubled due to external factors. there is no evidence the passenger subsidy has halved, i have certainly saw nothing reliable to prove it.

trellheim wrote: »

It looks as if BE management have missed a trick without having forced NBRU to ballot these proposals immediately and let them get some money in their pockets to strike again

well they should have provided the rosters in a timely manner then. the staff can't be balloted when they don't have the rosters.

pilly

end of the road wrote: »

passenger numbers more then doubled due to external factors. there is no evidence the passenger subsidy has halved, i have certainly saw nothing reliable to prove it.



well they should have provided the rosters in a timely manner then. the staff can't be balloted when they don't have the rosters.

You've seen nothing to dispute your points of view EOTR because you don't do any research, you merely make things up.

Not once have you provided any back up for any of your random "statements of fact".

devnull

end of the road wrote: »

passenger numbers more then doubled due to external factors. there is no evidence the passenger subsidy has halved, i have certainly saw nothing reliable to prove it.

There is plenty, but since you dispute otherwise, I'll declare my sources (I didn't just post the graphs from wikipedia, I checked to see where they were sourced from before posting as well)

The Figures that I am using for passenger numbers come from:
ATOC and the UK Office of Rail Regulation.

The figures I am using for Overall subsidy figures are from:
The UK Office of Rail Regulation.

The figures I am using for subsidy per passenger journey are from:
ATOC and the UK Office of Rail Regulation and Terry Gourvish's "British Rail 1974-1997: From Integration to Privatisation"

The figures I am using for modal share are from:
UK Department of Transport

MOH

end of the road wrote: »

passenger numbers more then doubled due to external factors. there is no evidence the passenger subsidy has halved, i have certainly saw nothing reliable to prove it.

I never said passenger subsidy halved, kindly stop lying when quoting me.
You're a really poor troll.

Subsidy per passenger has halved, for which there is plenty of evidence.

pilly

MOH wrote: »

I never said passenger subsidy halved, kindly stop lying when quoting me.
You're a really poor troll.

Subsidy per passenger has halved, for which there is plenty of evidence.

Sad thing is he's not even a troll.