Irish Rail Fixed Penalty notice

devnull

Hilly Bill wrote: »

That's what you do on a discussion forum or do you believe it all?

It's rare that I would agree with someone in relation to Irish Rail and even less that I would agree with you, but on this occasion I think you are pretty much spot on,

OP - the lads and lasses who will dish out the fines and catch you have heard all the excuses before, pretty much everyone who evades has an excuse to fit the circumstances.

However you should also feed this back to HR and get them to make it clear to their employees the travel area that the pass covers, because if what you say is true they didn't help you.

alig123aileen

I have empathy for the situation you find yourself in . You clearly did not mean to cheat the system. Since when did Irish rail inspectors and managers on your train turn into moral police and threaten you with back payment of 1k. Sorry but their reaction is ridiculous and implies there are thousands of people travelling the maynooth to kilcock train each day free just to swindle irish rail out of millions.I'd complain in writing to their head office especially regarding the way the manager and inspector dealt with you as no matter what you did you should have been treated with dignity and respect and I'd ask for a copy of their terms and conditions of the short hop fare and of the ticket you bought. Threaten to write to Shane Ross the transport minister or the national transport authority. I don't expect you will get very far with irish rail head office but it's worth a try. You didn't realise, you owned up, you offered to pay, you are a reasonable honest individual and still they intimated you had to pay back money of 1000. You may be liable to pay a nominal fine but please put up a spirited defence. This sort of nonsense has to stop. Just my humble opinion From me the minister of common sense:)

n97 mini

Hilly Bill wrote: »

That's what you do on a discussion forum or do you believe it all?

On this forum the high horses are very quick to come out in fairness. Stupidity should be punished, or similar.

When people post here I prefer to take them at face value, not immediately suspect them of trying to cheat the system. If anyone had a spot of trouble and asked me should the post here looking for advice or similar experience, my recommendation would be a resounding "no".

magicbastarder

alig123aileen wrote: »

Threaten to write to Shane Ross the transport minister

is there any history of transport ministers intervening in fare & fine disputes?

Hilly Bill

alig123aileen wrote: »

I have empathy for the situation you find yourself in . You clearly did not mean to cheat the system. Since when did Irish rail inspectors and managers on your train turn into moral police and threaten you with back payment of 1k. Sorry but their reaction is ridiculous and implies there are thousands of people travelling the maynooth to kilcock train each day free just to swindle irish rail out of millions.I'd complain in writing to their head office especially regarding the way the manager and inspector dealt with you as no matter what you did you should have been treated with dignity and respect and I'd ask for a copy of their terms and conditions of the short hop fare and of the ticket you bought. Threaten to write to Shane Ross the transport minister or the national transport authority. I don't expect you will get very far with irish rail head office but it's worth a try. You didn't realise, you owned up, you offered to pay, you are a reasonable honest individual and still they intimated you had to pay back money of 1000. You may be liable to pay a nominal fine but please put up a spirited defence. This sort of nonsense has to stop. Just my humble opinion From me the minister of common sense:)

You forgot Joe Duffy. Writing to head office won't get you anywhere as it's the ceo's decision to apply a zero tolerance approach to fare evading be it intentionally or otherwise. The minister or the NTA won't have any interest either. If the op felt they wasn't treated fairly or in a dignified manner then let the revenue crowd know when they are disputing the back payment.

alig123aileen

Hilly Bill wrote: »

You forgot Joe Duffy. Writing to head office won't get you anywhere as it's the ceo's decision to apply a zero tolerance approach to fare evading be it intentionally or otherwise. The minister or the NTA won't have any interest either. If the op felt they wasn't treated fairly or in a dignified manner then let the revenue crowd know when they are disputing the back payment.

The minister or NTA will of course investigate a complaint and while you might get the same outcome at least you will have pursued all channels. The sooner we get a minister for common sense the better. You might also be able to bring them to the ombusdsman (civil service/state ombudsman).

Hilly Bill

alig123aileen wrote: »

The minister or NTA will of course investigate a complaint and while you might get the same outcome at least you will have pursued all channels. The sooner we get a minister for common sense the better. You might also be able to bring them to the ombusdsman (civil service/state ombudsman).

Time and effort can be saved by being realistic. Do you honestly think the minister or the NTA will entertain you if you tell them that you got fined because you made a mistake?

magicbastarder

alig123aileen wrote: »

The minister or NTA will of course investigate a complaint

what makes you say this? it's not the minister's job to intervene in ongoing issues like this.

MOH

Hilly Bill wrote: »

That's what you do on a discussion forum or do you believe it all?

If the OP posts something saying they've made a genuine mistake and asking for advice, I'll take that at face value unless it's something completely unreasonable. Otherwise what's the point?
Especially when there's a long history of people unfamiliar with IR being penalised for being honest.

Hilly Bill

It's always a mistake after a fine is issued. If the op tells me they made a mistake then I'll take their word for it.

crv

Your own fault for giving him your true name and address.

L1011

crv wrote: »

Your own fault for giving him your true name and address.

They seized a personalised taxsaver ticket - they'd have got the details off that and the OP would be looking at even more trouble.

n97 mini

magicbastarder wrote: »

what makes you say this? it's not the minister's job to intervene in ongoing issues like this.

Local TD would be a (slightly) better bet, but YMMV.

Losty Dublin

devnull wrote: »

However you should also feed this back to HR and get them to make it clear to their employees the travel area that the pass covers, because if what you say is true they didn't help you.

Actually, when you are issued with a new personalised Leap Card it comes with a leaflet detailing the travel zone that it covers. Or at least the last three that I go had one with it.

Laura4193

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Actually, when you are issued with a new personalised Leap Card it comes with a leaflet detailing the travel zone that it covers. Or at least the last three that I go had one with it.

Mine didn't.

Or at least of it did I certainly wasn't given it. Just literally the card.

Laura4193

Hilly Bill wrote: »

It's always a mistake after a fine is issued. If the op tells me they made a mistake then I'll take their word for it.

I told the inspector before he even issued the fine it was a mistake.

I didn't knowingly make the mistake, it wasn't a conscious effort to "scam" IR when it wasn't even my money that I was saving at the time.

goingnowhere

Hilly Bill wrote: »

The op wasn't exploited.

Indeed, Irish Rail are now enforcing their side of the contract, you travel, you gonna pay.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Laura4193

goingnowhere wrote: »

Indeed, Irish Rail are now enforcing their side of the contract, you travel, you gonna pay.

Contract? In order for it to be a contract you need to be aware of the offer and accept. I wasn't.

I was never made aware of the terms and conditions of my ticket. And Irish Rail do not share information on their zones for such tickets other than online where you have to actively look for them.

L1011

Laura4193 wrote: »

Contract? In order for it to be a contract you need to be aware of the offer and accept. I wasn't.

I was never made aware of the terms and conditions of my ticket. And Irish Rail do not share information on their zones for such tickets other than online where you have to actively look for them.

Your Leap card informs you of the T&Cs. You chose not to read them. Completely different to not being made aware.

Laura4193

L1011 wrote: »

Your Leap card informs you of the T&Cs. You chose not to read them. Completely different to not being made aware.

My leapcard never made me aware it was a short hop zone ticket, that's the whole point of this thread. I was never once made aware of the tickets terms and conditions. I know how a leap card works, just not how the ticket loaded on it worked. Huge difference.

L1011

Laura4193 wrote: »

My leapcard never made me aware it was a short hop zone ticket, that's the whole point of this thread. I was never once made aware of the tickets terms and conditions. I know how a leap card works, just not how the ticket loaded on it worked. Huge difference.

It would have said so every time you used a validator.

You used a ticket stating that its use was dependent on terms and conditions - you WERE made aware of T&Cs and chose not to read them. Read the back of a Leap card.

Neither blissful or wilful ignorance work as defences.

Laura4193

L1011 wrote: »

It would have said so every time you used a validator.

You used a ticket stating that its use was dependent on terms and conditions - you WERE made aware of T&Cs and chose not to read them. Read the back of a Leap card.

Neither blissful or wilful ignorance work as defences.

For the millionth time there was no validator at the Kilcock station and the one at the station I got off at didn't say anything about what ticket it was on the leap card.

Once again, if I didn't know the ticket I didn't know the terms of the ticket. Simple as.

The back of the leap card doesn't tell me what type of ticket is on it, that's not how smart cards work.

L1011

Laura4193 wrote: »

For the millionth time there was no validator at the Kilcock station and the one at the station I got off at didn't say anything about what ticket it was on the leap card.

Read the screen.

Laura4193 wrote: »

Once again, if I didn't know the ticket I didn't know the terms of the ticket. Simple as.

The back of the leap card doesn't tell me what type of ticket is on it, that's not how smart cards work.

This is still an attempt to use ignorance as a defence.

The website, or the app if you have a suitable phone, will show you what ticket(s) are loaded. As will every validator. Possibly even TVMs but I've never checked. You were perfectly capable of reading the T&Cs which you were made aware existed and you were perfectly capable of finding out that your ticket was invalid.

I suspect that if you were using a different train you'd have been caught out a lot earlier as my experience is that the regular RPU staff on the early morning Sligo-Dublin services rarely scan personalised Leap cards at all. That won't be a defence either (if it happened)

Cakerbaker

The back of my leap card directs me to a website for their further terms and conditions. 2 easy and obvious links show that kilcock is not part of the short hop zone.

Hilly Bill

Laura4193 wrote: »

Contract? In order for it to be a contract you need to be aware of the offer and accept. I wasn't.

I was never made aware of the terms and conditions of my ticket. And Irish Rail do not share information on their zones for such tickets other than online where you have to actively look for them.

You accepted the ticket from your job, ask them why they didn't explain to you that you couldn't travel from a station further away from the station you told them that you would be travelling from.

Laura4193

L1011 wrote: »

Read the screen.



This is still an attempt to use ignorance as a defence.

The website, or the app if you have a suitable phone, will show you what ticket(s) are loaded. As will every validator. Possibly even TVMs but I've never checked. You were perfectly capable of reading the T&Cs which you were made aware existed and you were perfectly capable of finding out that your ticket was invalid.

I suspect that if you were using a different train you'd have been caught out a lot earlier as my experience is that the regular RPU staff on the early morning Sligo-Dublin services rarely scan personalised Leap cards at all. That won't be a defence either (if it happened)

The screen literally said "Tag". Not informative in the slightest.

As the card was registered with works account with leapcard I could not load the details for me to see and the app only works for the account holder too.

Laura4193

Cakerbaker wrote: »

The back of my leap card directs me to a website for their further terms and conditions. 2 easy and obvious links show that kilcock is not part of the short hop zone.

I didn't know it was a Short hop Zone ticket, that's the whole point of this thread. Please read the actual thread in future.

HonalD

Laura4193 wrote: »

I didn't know it was a Short hop Zone ticket, that's the whole point of this thread. Please read the actual thread in future.

I would suggest you should reflect on the content of the posts in the thread. The whole world, except you, can't be wrong in this case. You didn't know....but that's no defence. Let us know how you get on with an appeal to whoever.

Cakerbaker

Laura4193 wrote: »

I didn't know it was a Short hop Zone ticket, that's the whole point of this thread. Please read the actual thread in future.

you could also argue that you should read the terms and conditions of the back of tickets / travel cards you are using in future.