Irish Rail Fixed Penalty notice

crv

Your own fault for giving him your true name and address.

L1011

crv wrote: »

Your own fault for giving him your true name and address.

They seized a personalised taxsaver ticket - they'd have got the details off that and the OP would be looking at even more trouble.

n97 mini

magicbastarder wrote: »

what makes you say this? it's not the minister's job to intervene in ongoing issues like this.

Local TD would be a (slightly) better bet, but YMMV.

Losty Dublin

devnull wrote: »

However you should also feed this back to HR and get them to make it clear to their employees the travel area that the pass covers, because if what you say is true they didn't help you.

Actually, when you are issued with a new personalised Leap Card it comes with a leaflet detailing the travel zone that it covers. Or at least the last three that I go had one with it.

Laura4193

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Actually, when you are issued with a new personalised Leap Card it comes with a leaflet detailing the travel zone that it covers. Or at least the last three that I go had one with it.

Mine didn't.

Or at least of it did I certainly wasn't given it. Just literally the card.

Laura4193

Hilly Bill wrote: »

It's always a mistake after a fine is issued. If the op tells me they made a mistake then I'll take their word for it.

I told the inspector before he even issued the fine it was a mistake.

I didn't knowingly make the mistake, it wasn't a conscious effort to "scam" IR when it wasn't even my money that I was saving at the time.

goingnowhere

Hilly Bill wrote: »

The op wasn't exploited.

Indeed, Irish Rail are now enforcing their side of the contract, you travel, you gonna pay.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Laura4193

goingnowhere wrote: »

Indeed, Irish Rail are now enforcing their side of the contract, you travel, you gonna pay.

Contract? In order for it to be a contract you need to be aware of the offer and accept. I wasn't.

I was never made aware of the terms and conditions of my ticket. And Irish Rail do not share information on their zones for such tickets other than online where you have to actively look for them.

L1011

Laura4193 wrote: »

Contract? In order for it to be a contract you need to be aware of the offer and accept. I wasn't.

I was never made aware of the terms and conditions of my ticket. And Irish Rail do not share information on their zones for such tickets other than online where you have to actively look for them.

Your Leap card informs you of the T&Cs. You chose not to read them. Completely different to not being made aware.

Laura4193

L1011 wrote: »

Your Leap card informs you of the T&Cs. You chose not to read them. Completely different to not being made aware.

My leapcard never made me aware it was a short hop zone ticket, that's the whole point of this thread. I was never once made aware of the tickets terms and conditions. I know how a leap card works, just not how the ticket loaded on it worked. Huge difference.

L1011

Laura4193 wrote: »

My leapcard never made me aware it was a short hop zone ticket, that's the whole point of this thread. I was never once made aware of the tickets terms and conditions. I know how a leap card works, just not how the ticket loaded on it worked. Huge difference.

It would have said so every time you used a validator.

You used a ticket stating that its use was dependent on terms and conditions - you WERE made aware of T&Cs and chose not to read them. Read the back of a Leap card.

Neither blissful or wilful ignorance work as defences.

Laura4193

L1011 wrote: »

It would have said so every time you used a validator.

You used a ticket stating that its use was dependent on terms and conditions - you WERE made aware of T&Cs and chose not to read them. Read the back of a Leap card.

Neither blissful or wilful ignorance work as defences.

For the millionth time there was no validator at the Kilcock station and the one at the station I got off at didn't say anything about what ticket it was on the leap card.

Once again, if I didn't know the ticket I didn't know the terms of the ticket. Simple as.

The back of the leap card doesn't tell me what type of ticket is on it, that's not how smart cards work.

L1011

Laura4193 wrote: »

For the millionth time there was no validator at the Kilcock station and the one at the station I got off at didn't say anything about what ticket it was on the leap card.

Read the screen.

Laura4193 wrote: »

Once again, if I didn't know the ticket I didn't know the terms of the ticket. Simple as.

The back of the leap card doesn't tell me what type of ticket is on it, that's not how smart cards work.

This is still an attempt to use ignorance as a defence.

The website, or the app if you have a suitable phone, will show you what ticket(s) are loaded. As will every validator. Possibly even TVMs but I've never checked. You were perfectly capable of reading the T&Cs which you were made aware existed and you were perfectly capable of finding out that your ticket was invalid.

I suspect that if you were using a different train you'd have been caught out a lot earlier as my experience is that the regular RPU staff on the early morning Sligo-Dublin services rarely scan personalised Leap cards at all. That won't be a defence either (if it happened)

Cakerbaker

The back of my leap card directs me to a website for their further terms and conditions. 2 easy and obvious links show that kilcock is not part of the short hop zone.

Hilly Bill

Laura4193 wrote: »

Contract? In order for it to be a contract you need to be aware of the offer and accept. I wasn't.

I was never made aware of the terms and conditions of my ticket. And Irish Rail do not share information on their zones for such tickets other than online where you have to actively look for them.

You accepted the ticket from your job, ask them why they didn't explain to you that you couldn't travel from a station further away from the station you told them that you would be travelling from.

Laura4193

L1011 wrote: »

Read the screen.



This is still an attempt to use ignorance as a defence.

The website, or the app if you have a suitable phone, will show you what ticket(s) are loaded. As will every validator. Possibly even TVMs but I've never checked. You were perfectly capable of reading the T&Cs which you were made aware existed and you were perfectly capable of finding out that your ticket was invalid.

I suspect that if you were using a different train you'd have been caught out a lot earlier as my experience is that the regular RPU staff on the early morning Sligo-Dublin services rarely scan personalised Leap cards at all. That won't be a defence either (if it happened)

The screen literally said "Tag". Not informative in the slightest.

As the card was registered with works account with leapcard I could not load the details for me to see and the app only works for the account holder too.

Laura4193

Cakerbaker wrote: »

The back of my leap card directs me to a website for their further terms and conditions. 2 easy and obvious links show that kilcock is not part of the short hop zone.

I didn't know it was a Short hop Zone ticket, that's the whole point of this thread. Please read the actual thread in future.

HonalD

Laura4193 wrote: »

I didn't know it was a Short hop Zone ticket, that's the whole point of this thread. Please read the actual thread in future.

I would suggest you should reflect on the content of the posts in the thread. The whole world, except you, can't be wrong in this case. You didn't know....but that's no defence. Let us know how you get on with an appeal to whoever.

Cakerbaker

Laura4193 wrote: »

I didn't know it was a Short hop Zone ticket, that's the whole point of this thread. Please read the actual thread in future.

you could also argue that you should read the terms and conditions of the back of tickets / travel cards you are using in future.

L1011

Laura4193 wrote: »

The screen literally said "Tag". Not informative in the slightest.

As the card was registered with works account with leapcard I could not load the details for me to see and the app only works for the account holder too.

No validator just says "tag". It shows the ticket price/balance or type also.

The app doesn't give a damn who owns the card you're scanning. I've also never seen a workplace register staff cards, but its possible somewhere does.

You are still doing nothing to get away from a single claim of ignorance, which is no defence.

Laura4193

alig123aileen wrote: »

Laura my focus is on ways of resolving this issue for you not blaming and I assume you came on this forum for support and advice not for judgement😄. I think I may have found a way of you getting out of the large fine you have been hit with. Now I think we all know that no one minds paying a fine if they have not been compliant with the law or brazenly flouted the law but it appears from your story that that's simply not the case with you and you were not treated with dignity and respect by Irish rail and that's not acceptable at all. My background is consumer legislation and legal so if you want my help send me a PM I don't charge for this service. A solicitor will cost you. And please don't worry😉

I have PM'd you earlier

flatty

alig123aileen wrote: »

Laura4193 wrote: »

My leapcard never made me aware it was a short hop zone ticket, that's the whole point of this thread. I was never once made aware of the tickets terms and conditions. I know how a leap card works, just not how the ticket loaded on it worked. Huge difference.

Laura my focus is on ways of resolving this issue for you not blaming and I assume you came on this forum for support and advice not for judgement😄. I think I may have found a way of you getting out of the large fine you have been hit with. Now I think we all know that no one minds paying a fine if they have not been compliant with the law or brazenly flouted the law but it appears from your story that that's simply not the case with you and you were not treated with dignity and respect by Irish rail and that's not acceptable at all. My background is consumer legislation and legal so if you want my help send me a PM I don't charge for this service. A solicitor will cost you. And please don't worry😉

ðŸ‘ðŸ‘ðŸ‘

Laura4193

L1011 wrote: »

No validator just says "tag". It shows the ticket price/balance or type also.

The app doesn't give a damn who owns the card you're scanning. I've also never seen a workplace register staff cards, but its possible somewhere does.

You are still doing nothing to get away from a single claim of ignorance, which is no defence.

I must be lying so cause I have loads to gain from staying on an extra stop with a card I don't pay for

It's on my contract with work that travel is paid for as a BIK with taxsaver and they organise it themselves. I guess you don't know everything.

I'm not claiming ignorance I'm on here explaining my story, you don't have to like it.

Laura4193

Cakerbaker wrote: »

you could also argue that you should read the terms and conditions of the back of tickets / travel cards you are using in future.

The back of the smart card I.e. Leap card does not say what ticket is loaded on it. I know the terms and conditions of the leap card itself but the tickets you can buy to load on it have different terms for each one, I cannot know terms for a ticket that I did not know I had.

Again, please read the actual full thread to understand. Or maybe you just don't understand how prepaid tickets work with the leap card?

L1011

Laura4193 wrote: »

I'm not claiming ignorance I'm on here explaining my story, you don't have to like it.

Your entire claim boils down to ignorance - "wasn't informed" of the T&Cs which are on the back of the ticket; "wasn't informed" of the ticket type which every validator in an Irish Rail station will tell you, "wasn't informed" of it being SHZ etc.

You made the decision to go further than the ticket you had - you had every opportunity to check if you could do this, and didn't. Your sole defence is ignorance, which will not be accepted

You need to try negotiate a settlement with Irish Rail - you should be able to pay rather a lot less than the initial demand - or else it is likely they will go to court; and a judge will not give much heed to claims of not being informed.

You can try blame your employer, Irish Rail, anyone and everyone but you made the decisions and you decided not to check anything.

Laura4193

HonalD wrote: »

I would suggest you should reflect on the content of the posts in the thread. The whole world, except you, can't be wrong in this case. You didn't know....but that's no defence. Let us know how you get on with an appeal to whoever.

I'm not the only one arguing this side of it and I do believe the whole world has more interesting things to do than be on this thread.

So far the solicitor believes that IR don't have a case, so so far so good
Guess the "whole world" isn't so right after all..

Cakerbaker

Laura4193 wrote: »

The back of the smart card I.e. Leap card does not say what ticket is loaded on it. I know the terms and conditions of the leap card itself but the tickets you can buy to load on it have different terms for each one, I cannot know terms for a ticket that I did not know I had.

Again, please read the actual full thread to understand. Or maybe you just don't understand how prepaid tickets work with the leap card?

I do understand as I looked as the back of my tax saver ticket before replying to this tread. There it tells me to go to leapcard.ie for the full terms and conditions which I did. Then I click on a link for Dublin and then a link for dart and commuter rail which shows a map which does NOT include Kilcock.

L1011

Laura4193 wrote: »

Or maybe you just don't understand how prepaid tickets work with the leap card?

It would appear that you are the one with the issues understanding that here, to be honest.

Laura4193

L1011 wrote: »

Your entire claim boils down to ignorance - "wasn't informed" of the T&Cs which are on the back of the ticket; "wasn't informed" of the ticket type which every validator in an Irish Rail station will tell you, "wasn't informed" of it being SHZ etc.

You made the decision to go further than the ticket you had - you had every opportunity to check if you could do this, and didn't. Your sole defence is ignorance, which will not be accepted

You need to try negotiate a settlement with Irish Rail - you should be able to pay rather a lot less than the initial demand - or else it is likely they will go to court; and a judge will not give much heed to claims of not being informed.

You can try blame your employer, Irish Rail, anyone and everyone but you made the decisions and you decided not to check anything.

1. There was no physical ticket handed to me, only a leap card which terms and conditions do not state what actual card is loaded on it.

2. The validator didn't tell me the ticket type, build a bridge over that one.

3. My sole defence is not ignorance, if you read my posts fully you will see that a) there is no solid proof of the back dated "journeys" IR have decided to charge me full fares of seen as they are going on assumptions that a tag on with out a tag off is automatically from Kilcock and b) I was charged only for the fine when I called to pay and was told that I was fully paid up.

Laura4193

Cakerbaker wrote: »

I do understand as I looked as the back of my tax saver ticket before replying to this tread. There it tells me to go to leapcard.ie for the full terms and conditions which I did. Then I click on a link for Dublin and then a link for dart and commuter rail which shows a map which does NOT include Kilcock.

But at the time of being given the ticket I didn't understand it to be a taxsaver ticket. I was literally just told "Bus and Rail".

It's different when you order a ticket for yourself of course you know what you're getting! But I trusted that what I was handed had me covered for everything

Losty Dublin

Laura4193 wrote: »

1. There was no physical ticket handed to me, only a leap card which terms and conditions do not state what actual card is loaded on it.

2. The validator didn't tell me the ticket type, build a bridge over that one.

1. The Leapcard is the physical ticket. It is up to the bearer to know that they have fare credit or the requisite pass loaded onto the card to cover the trip.

2. Everybody else's ticket type comes up when they tag on and off in the Leap travel area. Why not yours?

Cakerbaker

Laura4193 wrote: »

But at the time of being given the ticket I didn't understand it to be a taxsaver ticket. I was literally just told "Bus and Rail".

It's different when you order a ticket for yourself of course you know what you're getting! But I trusted that what I was handed had me covered for everything

If you went to the link at the back of the ticket you would have seen that the rail option didn't include kilcock.

Laura4193

Losty Dublin wrote: »

1. The Leapcard is the physical ticket. It is up to the bearer to know that they have fare credit or the requisite pass loaded onto the card to cover the trip.

2. Everybody else's ticket type comes up when they tag on and off in the Leap travel area. Why not yours?

I wasn't going looking for a solution to a problem when I didn't believe there to be a problem.

If there are truly validators at every SHZ station and the leap card only works for Short hop zone then I would suggest IR program the barriers so that they only open on disembarking a train when the card has been tagged on. My problem was that the barriers let me through all the time so I was under the impression my ticket was valid.

If it wasn't the barriers should not have opened, that way people will know their ticket is invalid.

Laura4193

Cakerbaker wrote: »

If you went to the link at the back of the ticket you would have seen that the rail option didn't include kilcock.

How exactly is this advice/helpful to me now though?

Or do you think people come on here to hear what they done wrong for the laugh?

In my original post I asked for advice and help on how to avoid having to pay the fees that I never wanted to pay or needed to pay in the first place had I of known.

Of course if I had of looked into it I'm sure I would have found out some information but my whole point is that you have to go looking as with other public transport fares and tickets are advertised clearly at bus stops and Luas stops, IR are completely the opposite.

Now thank fully I met a good solicitor who sorted this all out for me but for the record when an OP comes on looking for help and advice on what to do next try actually being helpful or don't post at all?

Hilly Bill

Laura4193 wrote: »

I must be lying so cause I have loads to gain from staying on an extra stop with a card I don't pay for

It's on my contract with work that travel is paid for as a BIK with taxsaver and they organise it themselves. I guess you don't know everything.

I'm not claiming ignorance I'm on here explaining my story, you don't have to like it.

Get onto the job and ask them to change it to kilcock and it's problem solved.

Laura4193

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Get onto the job and ask them to change it to kilcock and it's problem solved.

Thanks.

It was more the backdated journeys I was worried about and couldn't afford but they're being sorted now and I'm sticking with DB.

It was never a problem for me using Maynooth as I'm using it now I just believed it was possible to do otherwise but since I've been told and since I've paid my fine I've been travelling from Maynooth .

Hilly Bill

Laura4193 wrote: »

1. There was no physical ticket handed to me, only a leap card which terms and conditions do not state what actual card is loaded on it.

2. The validator didn't tell me the ticket type, build a bridge over that one.

3. My sole defence is not ignorance, if you read my posts fully you will see that a) there is no solid proof of the back dated "journeys" IR have decided to charge me full fares of seen as they are going on assumptions that a tag on with out a tag off is automatically from Kilcock and b) I was charged only for the fine when I called to pay and was told that I was fully paid up.

So in a nut shell, you used a service without knowing if you had a valid ticket or not? Would you park in Longford and say that you didn't know it didn't cover that far?

Hilly Bill

Laura4193 wrote: »

Thanks.

It was more the backdated journeys I was worried about and couldn't afford but they're being sorted now and I'm sticking with DB.

It was never a problem for me using Maynooth as I'm using it now I just believed it was possible to do otherwise but since I've been told and since I've paid my fine I've been travelling from Maynooth .

Ask the job if they will pay the backdated journeys since its BIK.

Laura4193

Hilly Bill wrote: »

So in a nut shell, you used a service without knowing if you had a valid ticket or not? Would you park in Longford and say that you didn't know it didn't cover that far?

No. As I've mentioned my ticket got through the barrier. If it wasn't a valid ticket the barrier should never of opened, just like if I did use my ticket in Longford or cork for example the barrier would beep back and not let me through.

I also believed my ticket to be a commuter based ticket to some level, I certainly believed Kilcock to be included as it is a commuter town and certainly IR seem to agree considering they're officially adding it in June.

Laura4193

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Ask the job if they will pay the backdated journeys since its BIK.

They won't need to. IR will be dropping the charges.

Hilly Bill

Laura4193 wrote: »

I wasn't going looking for a solution to a problem when I didn't believe there to be a problem.

If there are truly validators at every SHZ station and the leap card only works for Short hop zone then I would suggest IR program the barriers so that they only open on disembarking a train when the card has been tagged on. My problem was that the barriers let me through all the time so I was under the impression my ticket was valid.

If it wasn't the barriers should not have opened, that way people will know their ticket is invalid.

The absence of barriers at kilcock should have given you a big clue.

Hilly Bill

Laura4193 wrote: »

They won't need to. IR will be dropping the charges.

Did they tell you that?

Laura4193

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Did they tell you that?

Yes. So let it go and stop bombarding my thread with the same s**t ðŸ‘ðŸ¼

Hilly Bill

Laura4193 wrote: »

No. As I've mentioned my ticket got through the barrier. If it wasn't a valid ticket the barrier should never of opened, just like if I did use my ticket in Longford or cork for example the barrier would beep back and not let me through.

I also believed my ticket to be a commuter based ticket to some level, I certainly believed Kilcock to be included as it is a commuter town and certainly IR seem to agree considering they're officially adding it in June.

Ye June ;-). You just jumped the gun a bit :-)

Hilly Bill

Laura4193 wrote: »

Yes. So let it go and stop bombarding my thread with the same s**t ðŸ‘ðŸ¼

Then happy days, case closed :-).

flexcon

Laura4193 wrote: »

They won't need to. IR will be dropping the charges.

Delighted to hear that!!!!

HonalD

Laura4193 wrote: »

I'm not the only one arguing this side of it and I do believe the whole world has more interesting things to do than be on this thread.

So far the solicitor believes that IR don't have a case, so so far so good
Guess the "whole world" isn't so right after all..

Well if "the solicitor" believes that IR don't have a case then stop and you believe them, why are you still posting? It's appearing to be that you are not interested in other people's opinions or advice so take your chances and see what happens.

flatty

I'm delighted IR have seen sense. Actually I suspect that they didn't, and that the kind person who helped you found a way around this, but I can easily see how it happened to you, and the guts of a thousand euro was wholly unfair in the circumstances.
Isn't it great to see the milk of human kindness on display from the bulk of the other posters all the same?

L1011

Laura4193 wrote: »

Yes. So let it go and stop bombarding my thread with the same s**t ðŸ‘ðŸ¼

They told you between 11pm and midnight?