England vs Italy.

Rightwing

irishbucsfan wrote: »

And after the WC what did Woodward do? After not winning anything else what did Lievremont do? After leading Ireland to their worst 6 Nations what did Kidney do?

Jones is around for 20+ years but not many as a top level head coach. Mostly because he led Australia to a terrible season and ended up getting sacked and then took over the Queensland Reds and led them to a truly awful Super Rugby season and ended up resigning from there as well. After that he struggled to get a top job for quite a while, was an assistant and a consultant.

Lets try to keep to statement of facts rather than vague descriptions of people who "know how to win" as if that actually translates into anything that actually has any sort of real meaning.

Didn't he try Southampton to the best of my knowledge. Jones had the perseverance, makes him stand out as great. I'd rate hime ahead of Gatland, and winning the GS has done him no harm whatsoever.

CMOTDibbler

Rightwing wrote: »

Woodward won a WC. Lievremont should have won one. Kidney a proven winner. Jones is around for 20+ years.

On the otherhand, chaps like Lancaster have won admiration, but little else.

And all of this adds up to what? A reason to be churlish and putulant? An excuse for it? A right to feel aggrieved that he was out thought?

Not sure what Eddie's CV has to do with anything relating to the man and his behaviour at that presser.

molloyjh

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

And all of this adds up to what? A reason to be churlish and putulant? An excuse for it? A right to feel aggrieved that he was out thought?

Not sure what Eddie's CV has to do with anything relating to the man and his behaviour at that presser.

Nothing at all, but if you move the goalposts enough times and far enough you get to avoid dealing with what you've actually said completely and then get a false sense of confidence in an opinion that you've refused to allow anyone to truly challenge. The Donald would be proud.

Rightwing

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

And all of this adds up to what? A reason to be churlish and putulant? An excuse for it? A right to feel aggrieved that he was out thought?

Not sure what Eddie's CV has to do with anything relating to the man and his behaviour at that presser.

You had a problem with it, I certainly didn't.

CMOTDibbler

Rightwing wrote: »

You had a problem with it, I certainly didn't.

Problem?

Hardly. I do have some critical faculties though. If you have no problem, that's fine. You're the only one on here or anywhere else for that matter.

Neil3030

Rightwing, in the interest of full disclosure, did you par chance back England to beat the handicap?

Rightwing

Neil3030 wrote: »

Rightwing, in the interest of full disclosure, did you par chance back England to beat the handicap?

No. It was too big.
I also don't think Eng are great. I think player for player we are better. Jones is doing extraordinary stuff with them. If he gets a back to back GS with that group of players, I struggle to see a better achievement. Winning so many matches in a row.
Where I do agree with the most here is how limited Eng's thought process was yesterday. But this only further underlines how good Jones is, how he has turned chumps into champs.

swiwi_

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

You're right, it was. He was absolutely cracking up though.

For all those who were saying Italy shouldn't be in the 6N, you know who you are :pac:

They've provided the most entertainment this year so far. To completely steal the headlines from England and shove Jones's 'take them to the cleaners' comment where the sun don't shine is just glorious.

The game hasn't changed my opinion one iota that the 6N should not be a closed shop with Italy's inclusion.

O'Shea came up with a good tactic, which England utterly failed to adapt to.

That aside, Italy scored one fortuitous try and Campagnaro pulled off a bit of individual skill. Otherwise it was the usual Italy display of inexplicably dropped passes, malfunctioning line out, poor defence (once England adapted), limited attack, and to top it off, utterly inadequate goal kicking.

It was the most amusing match I've just about ever watched, but it was hardly a clarion call for all concerns about Italy to magically melt away. If they try that tactic again, they will get hammered IMO.

CMOTDibbler

Rightwing wrote: »

No. It was too big.
I also don't think Eng are great. I think player for player we are better. Jones is doing extraordinary stuff with them. If he gets a back to back GS with that group of players, I struggle to see a better achievement. Winning so many matches in a row.
Where I do agree with the most here is how limited Eng's thought process was yesterday. But this only further underlines how good Jones is, how he has turned chumps into champs.

To be fair to Jones, he's managed to instil a sense of belief in an England squad that's been heavily hit by injury. That belief has carried them over the line in a couple of tough matches against Wales and France. Barely, but still they managed.

What struck me about yesterday was when the plan wasn't working and when by half time, not only had they not taken Italy to the cleaners, but the Italians had stolen their clothes, the leadership on the field went completely missing.

They got their mojo back after a quick reboot at half time, but I'd wonder if the self belief is just a little but shakey now. If Scotland were to turn up in Twickenham with a bounce in their step and take an early lead like they did against us, I suspect that they could crumble.

It's always a fascinating competition.

irishbucsfan

Rightwing wrote: »

Didn't he try Southampton to the best of my knowledge.

Yes, and had little success. So much for knowing "how to win".

Rightwing wrote: »

Jones had the perseverance, makes him stand out as great. I'd rate hime ahead of Gatland, and winning the GS has done him no harm whatsoever.

Rate him ahead of Gatland based on what? One trophy and multiple failures?

Running Balance

I hope scotland do it at the first tackle breakdown next game.

Just for a laugh like!! See jones turnip head melt!!

Rightwing

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yes, and had little success. So much for knowing "how to win".


Rate him ahead of Gatland based on what? One trophy and multiple failures?

He won the WC, and a GS. That'll do me.

Stheno

Rightwing wrote: »

He won the WC, and a GS. That'll do me.

Who won the wc and a gs?

CMOTDibbler

Stheno wrote: »

Who won the wc and a gs?

Clive Wouldwould.

ScrubsfanChris

t8010789

I thought that Haskell and Hartley had a "doh!" moment asking the ref the rules, in their favour "there's no such thing as a stupid question"

Will Hartley keep the captaincy? I think given that he has Jamie George breathing down his neck and his discipline nearly cost him this 6N, it can only be a matter of time before that role is given to Farrell.

Jones caused himself a whole load of s**t after the match but did not go blaming the team. He's certainly not making any friends but he does have an uncanny knack of keeping the heat on him and not the players. Does the game/viewing benefit from his presence?

pickarooney

BBDBB wrote: »

taking your point full circle though, these lads have played rugby for many years, starting at mini rugby some of them, stupidity is understandable in professional sportsmen, weve all seen the really talented lad at school, miss lessons for trials, matches and competitions, academia is unlikely to be their strong suit.


But this is their "rugby brain", the on the field stuff where they earn their living (and a damn fine one at that) they are supposed to be top of their profession. Coaching has a massive role to play in educating players about the laws and nuances of the game. If this was a new tactic then I could perhaps understand it, but we all saw Pocock do it to Murray who subsequently negated it and Haskell is quoted as saying Toulouse did it against Wasps. For the entire England team to have no idea what was happening and to have no answer for 35 minutes before Danny Care took a snipe up the middle was shameful.


Conor O'Shea has done them a massive favour

The funniest bit of all was when Cole decided he was going to try it himself after an English tackle, but he completely ****ed it up by coming around the side and tackling a player who was not bound.

Johnny 'tackle my own scrum' May at least can be relieved that he's no longer the most clueless player in the squad.

Bridge93

England have:
Over 4 times the registered male players as France
Over 10 times the registered male players as Ireland
29 times the male players as Wales
40 times the players as Scotland

Shouldn't be a surprise they're doing well now, they should have the best players. And they do so I would hardly say a Jones is working wonders. Their depth is in a different league to anyone else and their finish to games shows this

Bridge93

Why did Luke McClean not kick when it became clear Allan was struggling?

KM88

Deleted User wrote: »

For those who didn't get a chance to see it. This is up there with Venter and Brown's post match interviews for sheer saltyness.

WOW! how assh01sh can a coach get?
- "not rugby; no rugby; no game; bowling; yada, yada"

Italy played by the rules.
Italy won the first half on the scoreboard and on the strategy board.
England won the second half on the scoreboard by almost enough to save their embarrassment ...
But then their coach dug their hole of embarrassment even deeper.

International Rugby (or whatever that was) is great entertainment - lets have plenty more of that please

TheCitizen

KM88 wrote: »

WOW! how assh01sh can a coach get?
- "not rugby; no rugby; no game; bowling; yada, yada"

Italy played by the rules.
Italy won the first half on the scoreboard and on the strategy board.
England won the second half on the scoreboard by almost enough to save their embarrassment ...
But then their coach dug their hole even deeper.

International Rugby (or whatever that was) is great entertainment - lets have plenty more of that please

Why does he get such an easy time from the press? If things turn sour for England the knives will be out for him.

ScrubsfanChris

Is it true he refused to speak with the Italian media? Doubt anything will come from it but in the NFL coaches and players get hefty fines for refusing to take part in their media obligations.

tritriagain

TheCitizen wrote: »

Why does he get such an easy time from the press? If things turn sour for England the knives will be out for him.

Have to agree with earlier poster. I reckon jones is creating such a fuss to take heat off the team. They had a very bad first half . So had we against scotland. It doesnt turn a good team into a bad team. Just hope england and ireland win next matches to set up a cracker.

KM88

Rightwing wrote: »

... this only further underlines how good Jones is, how he has turned chumps into champs.

... champs into chumps.
my spellchecker fixed that for you. No thanks necessary;)

The Rape of Lucretia

I think creating such a hoohaa about it is just highlighting how sore he is about it, and about how so utterly dumb his players looked while they tried to understand what was going on, and almost pleading with Poitester 'we are England, this shouldnt be happening, it wasnt in Eddies script at aaaall - pleeeeeaaaaase help us!'.

Dog Botherer

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Poitester

This is a war crime.

swiwi_

errlloyd wrote: »

I have absolutely no idea how you intend on changing it without adding an offside line to the tackle, which unfortunately is impossible.

Imagine this. Player makes a break, goes one on one with the fullback, gets tackled. He turns in the tackle and offloads it backwards to the winger in support. Now what happens? The fullback was the last man, so every single defender on the opposition is offside. So none of them can tackle the winger until they have got back onside.

Spot on brother.

swiwi_

Dog Botherer wrote: »

This is a war crime.

Poitest. What Eddie Jones churlishly did after the match.

Mawwiage. When two people join together in holy matrimony.

CMOTDibbler

swiwi_ wrote: »

The game hasn't changed my opinion one iota that the 6N should not be a closed shop with Italy's inclusion.

O'Shea came up with a good tactic, which England utterly failed to adapt to.

That aside, Italy scored one fortuitous try and Campagnaro pulled off a bit of individual skill. Otherwise it was the usual Italy display of inexplicably dropped passes, malfunctioning line out, poor defence (once England adapted), limited attack, and to top it off, utterly inadequate goal kicking.

It was the most amusing match I've just about ever watched, but it was hardly a clarion call for all concerns about Italy to magically melt away. If they try that tactic again, they will get hammered IMO.

I'd agree about the error count, but it's a bit one-sided to just concentrate on Italy's contribution on that score. They made 45 errors according to the official stats, but England were a close second with 38 .

They badly need a good goal kicker; something they've lacked for a while now. But that's not an insurmountable problem as they actually have a couple in their Pro12 teams. Those guys need a bit more development, but it's hardly a hanging offence. Esapecially when you look at Owen Farrell's abysmal stats from the game.

Apart from their tackle area tactic, they actually put in a really good shift in the first half and were still in the game with 70 minutes on the clock. If they'd had a decent goal kicker, England would have been under serious scoreboard pressure at that stage.

They also made some bad defensive blunders. For Nowell's first try, they lined up very reminiscent of how Ireland did, just before Hogg scored his first in the Scotland match. Four men on the short side marking nobody.

These issues are all fixable. Even fixable in the same game. Apart from needing a goal kicker, they also need a defensive organiser in the backs to ensure that they don't get sucked in to ruck watching like that again. But they've a very decent coaching team and they should be able to correct those errors.

errlloyd

swiwi_ wrote: »

Spot on brother.

When did Rugby Union decide to try out this shambles of a law variation? Was this the original set of Stellenbosch laws? If so how did they ever get passed the South African under 10s league we try this stuff out on.